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Alt. Format Vespiquen / Eeveelutions / Swampert

T

ToToLaw

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Pokemon: 23
  • 4-4 Vespiquen
  • 4 Unown
  • 1 Bunnely
  • 3 Eevee
  • 2 Jolteon
  • 2 Flareon
  • 1 Swampert
  • 2 Shaymin EX
Trainers/Supporters/Stadiums: 30
  • 3 Professor Sycamore
  • 1 Professor Birch's Observations
  • 1 Lysandre
  • 1 Teammates
  • 1 Archie's in the Hole
  • 1 Blacksmith
  • 3 Battle Compressor
  • 3 Trainers' Mail
  • 3 Level Ball
  • 3 Ultra Ball
  • 4 VS Seeker
  • 2 Muscle Band
  • 1 Escape Rope
  • 1 Sacred Ash
  • 2 Forest of Giant Plants
Energy: 7
  • 4 DCE
  • 3 Fire Energy
Strategy:

i do not have the AOR cards yet to do testing, but i sub those cards to see how i do in first 2 turns. Since N is rotated out, our hand is not likely to be disturbed in first 2 turns.

The problem i found is, without computer search and Jirachi Ex, it's not easy to pull off Archie in the first 2 turns (1 time out of 5 by estimation).

i would appreciate all input about how to make Archie works, as well as way to improve the deck.

thank you
 
So, Archie's Ace in the Hole in theory is an amazing card. The downfall? It's very hard to only have one card left in your hand. I'm assuming your using Primal Clash Swampert for the ability too. In my opinion, you should drop AAH and Swampert because that's going to me next to impossible to set up for you. I'd add the two extra stadium cards to help you pull quicker set ups. Swamper's attack is mediocre as well for only three water energy. What made Empoleon good is Diving Draw's ability to put it in your hand and the low energy cost for Attack Command. Sure you can use Unknown, but even with that, it's attack is mediocre for this deck.

If you want to still try it, this is what I would do:

- 1 Shaymin-Ex
-1 Sycamore
-1 Shauna
-1 Teammates
- 1 Escape Rope
- 1 Bunnelby

+ 1 Prof. Birch's Observations
+ 3 Maintenance
+ 1 Switch
+1 Giant Plant Forest


I hope this helps.
 
thx for the input, it will be sad to give up swampert becoz i m waiting this swampert/ unown combination since AOR list came out. But if that's better for the deck i will do so.

is there a reason for using switch over escspe rope? as vespiquen and jolteon got free retreat i thought rope will be better choice
 
ToToLaw said:
thx for the input, it will be sad to give up swampert becoz i m waiting this swampert/ unown combination since AOR list came out. But if that's better for the deck i will do so.

is there a reason for using switch over escspe rope? as vespiquen and jolteon got free retreat i thought rope will be better choice
Click to expand...

It's just my preference on switch because escape rope can backfire more easily with low HP attackers.

As for Swampert/Archie, I'd make a deck to it's self for it.
 
I've actually been testing this theory and so far I've consistently been getting Archie played, although not in first turn (which doesn't matter much in this deck anyways, Swampert's ability is best used in late game here when you mustn't waste draws getting resources). The low supporter count and the chance to discard them when needed also help immensely. The lack of Exeggcute bothers me but I find this Queen Bee variant the best of all thus far. Your skeleton is similar to mine but with the following changes:

-1 Shauna
-1 Battle Compressor (3 is enough)
-3 Acro Bike (save your resources!!)
-1 VS Seeker (3 is enough for your low supporter count)
-1 Escape Rope
-1 Sacred Ash (you already have Bunnelby)

+1 Xerosic
+3 Trainer's Mail (much better engine, I'm in love with this card)
+1 Switch (really optional here, Escape Rope can be situationally better)
+2 Forest of Giant Plants (you need to guarantee that first turn evolve or your Combee will be insta-dead. Remember thereare bats in the format)
+1 Basic Energy (I find 4 to be a better number than 3, people like to play Grunts, Hammers and Xerosics these days, but also entirely optional)
 
thx so much for input. several questions, w more basic energy, isnt it harder to down to one card? also i always treat Xerosic as a disturbance card, which doesnt seems match w the theme, n it used up the supporter per turn.

would u mind share ur list too?

really thx a lot
 
It might be harder to cut it, but you won't be wanting to cut in all situations of the game. Most often than not you'll be wanting that extra energy and 4 basic guarantee a double alternative source for Bee Revenge (against Aegislash and other nuissances), but it's really optional. I really prefer playing it safe.

Xerosic may seem counter-productive but I'm really a huge fan of this underrated card. It's a total life saver sometimes and so versatile. It is as much important to make your setup as quickly as possible as it is preventing your opponent to do so as well. And I consider Xerosic for the mirror match for instance. VS Seeker it 3 times and your opponent has no DCE. I won't be using the other supporters that much either since I have Shaymin. Best option here would be pairing this with Ringers but they don't fit in the deck. It would made the prize trade much more efficient.

My list is the same as yours (exactly the same Pokémon used) with those changes I mentioned earlier.
 
have anyone thought of adding blacksmith? plus switching to fire energy, that way Aegislish cant block, plus we can play as,low as 2 basic fire n not running out of energy
 
I don't know how okay this is according to the rules, but I have questions moreso than suggestions.

Mimoso: if Xerosic is an option, what about Team Flare Grunt? I feel like there would be matchups where hitting basic energy is more important than hitting tools. What are you generally looking to get rid of with Xerosic that makes it the better play here? Hell, I'd like you to go into more detail on the specifics of your list in general. You've clearly tested the deck enough to know what you're doing, so it'd be cool if you were willing to share what you've discovered.

Plus I've noticed that there's been quite a trend of playing three copies of major engine cards instead of four. What's the reasoning behind four being too many these days?
 
Ok so I will explain all the things I've put together in order to make the deck work:

Pokémon: 23

  • 4-4 Vespiquen Line - maximum number line as you will optimally be attacking only with Queen
  • 4 Unown - self-explanatory, use it for a free draw and boost Queen. Simple and effective, what I like most.
  • 3 Eevee - like OP, I chose to have only 3 Eevee; most of the time I'd start with an Eevee and would be forced to look for a Switch or evolve to Jolteon for a free retreat and that took too many resources, so cutting to only 3 made more sense since I'll be using only 1 eeveelution most of the time and gave me room to include mighty Swampert.
  • 2 Flareon - counter against Sceptile, Vileplume and Aegislash. Won't be needing it in mirrors because Queens are fragile, so they'll better boosting in the discard pile.
  • 2 Jolteon - counter against Rayquaza, Lugia and a fun twist against opponents' Shaymin. Jolteon is even nicer because of no retreat cost.
  • 2 Shaymin-EX - 2 is a nice count between not wanting your only being prized and having your bench filled with them instead of proper supporting Pokémon.
  • 1 Bunnelby - People normally see this as a Wailord counter or anti-milling solution; I teched the Bunnelby to recycle important resources, mainly DCE. And boy, has it saved me for some times now. It's also fun using Burrow to annoy your opponent.
  • 1 Swampert - I loved this Swampert since it was released. It is too good of a card not to be played and my combination deck of Seismitoad/Swampert/Slurpuff handed me the 25th place in my Nationals this year (I curse that stupid Sharpedo-Hydreigon deck to this day). Although in this particular deck we do not use it for its attack, Diving Search gains a lot of importance in this format due to N's retirement, thus not needing a Slurpuff to insta-draw -- your choice for draw isn't revealed to your opponent as well. In such a fast deck, managing resources is really vital in the late game, and the risk of decking out or not having available solutions is strong, so Swampert is my 2nd tech that gets me wherever I want. Free renewable Computer Search is the best ability in the game, imo. Even if I don't get him into play, his place is in the discard pile so worst case scenario he's boosting my Queen.

Trainers: 29

  • 4 Professor Sycamore - staple.
  • 1 Lysandre - really important card to be used in many situations; I cut my 2 count to fit in Archie but in my testing I didn't need Lysandre that often since Queen sweeps everything anyway. You can always Compress it and use Seekers at will if you want to target Bronzongs, Shaymins and Plumes.
  • 1 Teammates - amazing card. In a deck where your Pokémon will always be dying, a Double Free Computer Search that can be Seeker'd is godlike.
  • 1 Archie's Ace in the Hole - The specifications of this card annoy me to no end since I have to modify my engine for this card alone, but once this gets into the game, you win. Definitely harder now without Eggs and Trump Card, but you'll be burning almost all of your items anyway so it's not an odd fit. Don't expect playing it always in 1st turn but my testing showed me that I don't need to focus so much on this card and Swampert -- only in emergencies. If it works, excellent. If it doesn't, you get a +10 attack boost and free Ultra Ball fodder. The only stuff I'd be trading out these 2 with would be a 3rd Muscle Band and a Prof. Birch's Observations so no worries there.
  • 1 Xerosic - In response to Nagifar, Xerosic can shut down Spirit Links, DCE's, DDE's, Muscle Bands, Strong Energies, Mystery Energies, Focus Sash...use it to anticipate your opponent's next move (i.e. a benched Ray ready to evolve/attack if he has DCE) and he'll have to waste a turn and resources fixing what you just did instead of properly building his board. And in a no-Trump Card format, killing his fragile non-renewable stuff is incredibly important since most decks DEPEND on those to survive. Queen itself included. Even if Xerosic doesn't have an immediate effect when you use it and your opponent has a ready solution, you can be damn well sure that he'll suffer for it later (and there will be a late game since he has to take down 6 of your pokés).
  • 3 Battle Compressor - In these kind of decks people will use 4 but I found 3 to be sufficient and balanced; there are times you won't be discarding 12 pokémon immediately since you'll be needing many of them in certain matchups. Also, 12 discarded pokémon don't guarantee you an EX OHKO, so you can lower your count for a 2hit KO or a weaknessed OHKO and leave maneuvering space for your yet usable pokés.
  • 3 Trainer's Mail - Acro Bike forces you to discard -- and it can be a painful discard, and ALSO forces you to draw another, even if it isn't your instant choice, draining instantly 2 cards from your fragile deck. Trainer's Mail gives you an option to keep or reshuffle and more often than not you'll find something valuable to retrieve. Really helped me many times. 3 is an enough count for it to show up when needed, and not too many to clog up important space for other stuff.
  • 3 Ultra Ball - I originally had only 2, but felt the need to include 3 because of Archie. Also, getting Shaymin ASAP is always a good move.
  • 3 Level Ball - A real saver in this deck to get Queen, but more commonly I use this for getting Unown and fuel deck draw/discard boost since I almost always get at least 2 lines of Queens 1st turn anyway.
  • 3 VS Seeker - No need for a 4th since you run low supporters and they aren't vital for your success either except for specific cases (since those cards are situational too, except Sycamore, which you don't want to be using at a later stage of the game).
  • 2 Muscle Band - Really really wanted to put in a 3rd, but it greatly hurts consistency. I might find a way to put another one though because I sometimes feel it's missing when I need that extra boost.
  • 1 Switch - Golden stuff when a prankster Lysandres your heavy stuff to force you to waste energies or stall you, or when you're asleep.
Energy: 8

  • 4 DCE - the more the merrier.
  • 4 Basic Energy - You can choose between Fire and Lightning because of Eevee's Ability, although I never used it thus far (and wasting an energy on something you will not attack with is a bad move unless it's game decisive), and Water Energy to fuel Swampert if needed as an emergency (friendly reminder that Swampert does 160 with these 4 energy and can attach 2 energies per turn due to its AT)
 
Naglfar said:
I don't know how okay this is according to the rules, but I have questions moreso than suggestions.

Mimoso: if Xerosic is an option, what about Team Flare Grunt? I feel like there would be matchups where hitting basic energy is more important than hitting tools. What are you generally looking to get rid of with Xerosic that makes it the better play here? Hell, I'd like you to go into more detail on the specifics of your list in general. You've clearly tested the deck enough to know what you're doing, so it'd be cool if you were willing to share what you've discovered.

Plus I've noticed that there's been quite a trend of playing three copies of major engine cards instead of four. What's the reasoning behind four being too many these days?
Click to expand...

While Team Flare Grunt would be good in this deck. Xerosic is better because it have more chances to disrupt an opponents flow because you're either causing them to waste tools like spirit links, or special energy on things like fighting decks. It's not Team Flare Grunt is bad for this case and is accounted to preference, but Xerosic would do better because for Queen getting that extra turn may win you the game and it can pull it off more often the Flare can.
 
putting 4 compressor and 4 seeker ensure the ease of using archie, doesnt mean that we have to compress 12 pokemon. plus u may just compress archie for easier search, or compress another comoressor late game. also is that in your version no shauna/ PBO?
 
may i know your pull rate of Archie? not neccessary T1 does it go above 70%?

Without Jirachi EX, egg, computer search its harder than in the past
 
@Mimoso - Liking the deck list.

Do you think there is room for a Sacred Ash - I've played with this deck a few times and on a couple of occasions, I really would have liked the ability to get two Vespiquen lines back into the deck to try and ensure I always have a Vespiquen on the board. I know we have Bunnelby but is that enough?
 
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i think sacred ash is a must. first, combee n vespiquen drop like flies, shuffle a 2-2 line late game really help, u may forced to discard vespiquen in some occasion too. second, it may save u from deck out, 5 cards make a difference. bunnelby mainly recover DCE, and losing a turn or even a prize for that is worthwhile.

super rod make a come back in xy8, maybe as good too, need some rest out
 
Yes, I'll most likely drop Swampert and Archie for Hex Maniac and a 3rd Muscle Band or a Sacred Ash.

It's not that Swampert is bad, because it is awesome, but the synergy in this deck isn't that useful most of the time.

But because of this deck's structure, I can get Swampert out there 2/3 of times, and 1/3 in first turn. But I don't like as much burning for Archie than burning to power up bees effectively which would be the deck's main purpose. I can get most of the stuff in T1 anyways. But if I do remove Archie, I might also play more conservative and drop a Sycamore for a Birch/Shauna. I don't know. Would need more testing. Having Swampert wasn't a nuissance at all and I win all my matches with or without it nevertheless (never tried mirror, though). But I feel that without it and the inclusion of Hex Maniac I can get more matchup coverage.
 
swampert has synergy effect with unown, trainers mail, shaymin ex. also, using diving search in late game, u don't have to dig in your already very thin deck (which is very common) for a card. moreover, like someone mentioned before, if we can't pull Archie, swampert just power up vespiquen by 10, which isn't a waste.

the main usage of hex maniac is against Aegislash ex. other than that there's nothing worth blocking. I suggest use blacksmith instead, and substitute the basic energy to fire energy, that way running out of DCE may not be very critical, as theoretically along with vs seeker, putting 2 fire energy on vespiquen can repeat every turn.
 
the list I use for today testing with my friends. beat colorless Rayquaza ex, sceptile deck quite efficiently.

Pkm x23:
4-4 Vespiquen
4 Unown
3 Eevee
2 Jolteon
2 Flareon
1 Swampert (AT)
1 bunnelby (AT)
2 Shaymin ex

Supporter x8:
3 Sycamore
1 PBO
1 Lysandre
1 Teammate
1 Blacksmith
1 Archie ace in the hole

Items x20:
3 Battle compressor
3 Trainers' mail
3 Level ball
3 Ultra ball
4 Vs seeker
2 Muscle band
1 Escape rope/ Switch
1 Sacred ash

Stadium x2:
2 Giant plant forest

Energy x7:
4 DCE
3 Fire energy
 
May sound dumb but Steven can search for Archies and grab you a basic for Eevee. There is also Blacksmith that can help set up a Vespiquen late game if you have Flareon out.
 
bradon said:
May sound dumb but Steven can search for Archies and grab you a basic for Eevee. There is also Blacksmith that can help set up a Vespiquen late game if you have Flareon out.
Click to expand...

The problem with that is assume you do grab a Blacksmith. Your opponent will most likely know what you're doing and could easily Lysandre up that Vespiquen for a quick KO. Blacksmith is okay I suppose in this deck, but the issue is I feel like you'd be spreading the support thin as well possibly setting yourself up with a useless supporter if Flareon is gone. I think for the most part this is quite solid. I could see the deck having issues getting draw power, I would quickly dump the Blacksmith for another PBO or GPF if that's the case but never add Steven.
 
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