TPCi's 'Core Player Survey' Asks Good Questions, Needs Great Answers

srsrox

Aspiring Trainer
Member
If you're really still crying about ADP when its going to be rotated in a few months you need to just get a life.

With that attitude, why care about anything.


ok know what im bored enough to write this out so lets do it
ADP has been a problem for the format for the entirety of its existence at this point. For the past 2 years or so, it has been a high tier deck where it has gatekept an entire deck archetype from seeing the light of day, which is the weak 2shot single prize deck archetype. This deck is mostly known as Zapbeasts or Mally, and I think Zapbeasts would have had a shot in last format had ADP not existed. Naturally, ADP exists, so Zapbeasts was trash and Mally needed to hit a specific combo to not instantly lose the game. This is ridiculous to me, that an entire archetype of possibly good decks is literally unplayable due to a single card. ADP has more problems than that, however. In a format with incredible consistency due to Dedenne and Crobat, the reward for killing those pokemon is way too high for an ADP based deck. You can win by killing 2 support Pokemon which have basically no HP in this format, and you just win. The existence of gust effects with the extra prize granted is just utterly stupid and causes the deck to not require any skill.
Guess what?
My mom got second at a team qualifier playing ADPZ with only a day’s worth of experience with the deck. Its absolutely ridiculous how braindead this deck is. A completely linear format with no creative deck building is really boring and lamesauce to me. I played Flapple Mawile Surprise box at that tournament and won just because I brought a deck that nobody else expected and had heard of before, and I sniped extra dedenne and other pokemon with the mawile surprise box and won, due to the …surprising combo that I played. This survey is important because it seems that they want to improve this stupid braindead meta, and the easiest way to do this is to ban ADP and promote better creative deckbuilding by making combos NOT obvious. Everyone and their grandma knew that ADP would be really good with Zacian. Everyone and their dog knew that Eternatus would be good with zigzagoon and crobat. A interesting format is when stuff isn’t laid out as if people were blind. I really hope that things change with this survey, and they promote creativity and strategy rather than playing 2 dummy broken cards together and chucking cards onto the table like a casino dealer.

I just want to say I truly appreciate this post. Pokemon have been creating decks for people to just pick up and play with no real amount of skill. Another example on top of what you said is Mad Party and Jirachi w/ Escape Board. These were clearly made by Pokemon to use these artificial combos. Granted Mad Party isn't as good as ADP, but it's so obvious Pokemon crafted it to be a deck. They need to just create cards let the players figure out what combos to do.
 
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Diego Lima

Aspiring Trainer
Member
These are great news for the game, it means they are actually listening, and interested in what players have to say (although I think it should be more open to more players to participate). Expanded reprint set would be amazing. Master sets are almost always a hit in Magic and for good reason. I would also love more formats, but singleton would not be one of them. I love singleton in Magic (1v1, hate multiplayer gameplay for tcgs meant to be played 1v1), but singleton in Pokémon just sounds silly at least for me. But hey, I mean, if people wanna play that, by all means, I just wouldn`t touch it with a ten foot pole personally.
 

Rocket The Shellos

Aspiring Trainer
Member
i think ADP is a symptom of the way the game has headed rather than the cause tbh

i've been playing on and off since black and white and until they stop continuously printing good big basics the meta is always going to be gatekept. the game in general is significantly faster than it was pre-shaymin - every single viable deck requires GXs/Vs, most of them as main attackers, which means even non-ADP decks only need 3 (sometimes even 2 with tag teams/vmaxes) knockouts per game, plus cards like crobat/dedenne that guarantee draw support without needing to burn your supporter for the turn making it easy to access resources much more consistently. mind you, big basics still dominated the meta pre-shaymin as well, but games were usually much longer cause setting things up took time. you had to rely on what was in your hand and if pray for juniper/sycamore if you weren't holding one.

i will agree that if cards like dedenne and crobat are going to exist, they are taking it in the right direction with ability per turn limitations, something they didn't do with shaymin, and that they are two-prize sitting ducks. it might seem unfair that a deck like ADP can take half its prizes off KOing one of them, but those cards need a downside and they're already making games incredibly quick with how easy they set you up anyway. there's a decent risk-reward - much more consistent hands in exchange for an easy boss target

i do think evolution and singleton formats look interesting, but theyre never going to be as popular as standard. i think if those formats are unlimited with a few bans they could be much more interesting even with the current power creep

i think adp is a pretty strong deck but in a meta where overall support cards and their combos are a lot slower to pull off it becomes significantly less consistent than other decks by comparison. i also think zacian is part of what makes it so good as it wasn't half as powerful without it, adp itself is powerful but needs consistent partners which it just so happened to get. i know they have in recent times geared things more towards making meta combos but i dont think the synergy with zacian was at the front of their mind really. it's also not getting banned before it rotates considering they just released the league battle deck, but it would be good to see them learn from this to make a better standard meta in the future. basically if they don't print any more crobat clones until it rotates we might be OK
 

The Last Shaymin

Floof
Member
Hmm, I kind of want to continue my other post but I'm on my phone now.

Anyway, I don't think that 2 prizers are a bad idea. I think that you can have an interesting meta with them and here is why.

1. As long as they are designed well, they can be very interesting cards to work with. Take golisopod for example. A stage 1 2 prizer that didn't ohko any other 2 prizers but it had decent HP that let it tank some hits, but it could still get one shot if you weren't careful. This is good balancing IMO. Not too broken but it allowed for interesting combinations with multiple cards, such as zoroark or garbodor. It also has good support such as acerola and guzman, but it required some brainpower to play and to build a deck around. ADP is not like this. ADP can really only be paired with one card, and that is zacian. As long as the card is versatile where multiple deck archetypes can be made from it, I think 2 prizers can be balanced.

2. They allow for more game length variations. A common option back in the day was to either go for OHKOs, 2 shot them, heal, or a combination of any of these. This meant that games had many different lengths and could change at any time. If a player accidentally used too many items, then they could get OHKOed by the opponents garbodor, which would make the game take much less time. Alternatively, they could go for 2 shots with golisopod while healing and switching out each turn, making games longer. This format with 3 prizers doesn't really let you do this, as decks are too consistent and do too much damage for either of the last 2 strategies to work.

3. They are balanced, as long as there is enough one prizer support. As long as one prizers can either go even or come out ahead in the prize trade, the format should be just fine. The problem is that right now, ADP doesn't let you do that.

Ya know, I'm getting tired so I'm going to write more tomorrow probably. I will compose this all into my rant eventually, but if you want to see even more of my opinions you should check it out, link is in my signature.
 

Arthur Soares Nogueira

Waiting for Swampert V
Member
Wish I could ask them for not print more crushing hammers. Getting item cards with such powerful effects based on coin flips is risking the game being decided by those coin flips, like some games in the last Players Cup.
People rn are playing more hammers coz' ADP and that get worse, coz' sometimes your opponent hits 2 heads and you know you'll lose, or hits 2 tails and concede.
 

Javi Blizz

Spanish TCG Player
Member
I wonder what would happen if people complaining about the consistency of 2-prize sitting ducks like Crobat V and Dedenne-GX had played during DP or the EX series, where you had so much consistency that you didn’t even play draw supporters (for example with Uxie/Claydol which were 1-prizers letting you chain Cyrus’ Conspiracy turn after turn. And the best deck, Garchomp C Lv.X worked guess how? KOing bench sitters; or in the ex series with the Holon Engine).
 

MagnaDrake

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I think pre-Tag Team GX was pretty balanced. The 'big' basic GXs has just the right amount of firepower and HP that it wasn't overwhelming, and (some) single prizers could still keep up with the damage output. The Stage 1 GXs was perfect in that it hits as hard as the basics and had more HP, but gated behind an evolution. Even more so the Stage 2's since it mostly needed Rare Candy to even run.
 

Number51x

Blasting off at the speed of light!
Member
ok know what im bored enough to write this out so lets do it

...The existence of gust effects with the extra prize granted is just utterly stupid and causes the deck to not require any skill.

Guess what?

My mom got second at a team qualifier playing ADPZ with only a day’s worth of experience with the deck. Its absolutely ridiculous how braindead this deck is.

The Last Shaymin's Mom: "Ouch."
 
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blackjack61105

Aspiring Trainer
Member
It's a shame, on top of that I don't know why people think rotation is a viable solution at this point. The "it'll rotate out eventually" defense of card games is the excuse from people who either play the deck, are new to the card game, or have some ingrained protection for "If they designed it this way then they know what they're doing"

Which, as someone who has played this game for over 10 years, can tell you - They haven't known what they were doing since the implementation of EX Pokemon.
The banned list is proof they dont always know what they're doing.
 
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TokenDuelist

YGO TCG is Cheaper. Fight me.
Member
The banned list is proof they dont always know what they're doing.

And yet sadly people just.... think they know what they're doing. I don't get it, why do they gotta defend TPCI this stupidly unless they themselves play one of the problematic decks.
 

blackjack61105

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I wonder what would happen if people complaining about the consistency of 2-prize sitting ducks like Crobat V and Dedenne-GX had played during DP or the EX series, where you had so much consistency that you didn’t even play draw supporters (for example with Uxie/Claydol which were 1-prizers letting you chain Cyrus’ Conspiracy turn after turn. And the best deck, Garchomp C Lv.X worked guess how? KOing bench sitters; or in the ex series with the Holon Engine).
Wasn't Garchomp C Lv X basically a stage 3 which would take 3-4 turns to set up not 1-2 like ADP?
 

Javi Blizz

Spanish TCG Player
Member
Wasn't Garchomp C Lv X basically a stage 3 which would take 3-4 turns to set up not 1-2 like ADP?

Not really, Garchomp C was an SP Pokemon, which were basics like the EX or V Pokemon. Their balance mechanic was having weakness x2 in a meta of weakness +damage instead of xdamage. So Garchomp C Lv.X was more like a Stage 1 or a BREAK. However, there was a Stadium called Broken Time-Space which let you evolve the same turn that you put a pokemon on the field (like Forest of Giant Plants from XY Ancient Origins, but for any pokemon) and Rare Candy hadn't been errated, so it was pretty easy to have evolutions on your field on turn 1. Also, with Cirus Conspirancy you could search the pokemon tool which reduced the energy requirements for SP pokemon (don't remember the name) and another Cyrus's for next turn (also a basic energy, but Garchomp used DCE). The consistency level of Uxie (like Shaymin but +1) and Claydol (discard up to 2, draw until you have 6) made decks not run draw supporters almost at all.

Edit: And Garchomp C Lv.X didn't even need gusting effects, since his attack snipped to the bench.
 

SupStar

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I'd say my main grievances with the TCG Standard in the recent times are:
  • ADP being totally broken

  • Having one or multiple charizards come out in every set and nearly all of them are very strong. It's just legit annoying to constantly see the same pokemon in so many good decks all the time.

  • Single prize pokemon that can deal ridiculous amounts of damage with basically no downsides (i.e. Mad Party / Night March where you need specific decks that can deal a lot of spread damage to counter otherwise you're almost guaranteed to lose if you're playing lots of multi prize pokemon)

  • Too much emphasis on having an excellent first few turns.
    I love PTCG's slow energy buildup because it makes it so things don't end up like yugioh where the game increasingly becomes more centered around winning in the first few turns to the point where if you have a bad first hand you may as well just forfeit.

    Recently I feel we've been inching closer and closer to that issue with cards that allow lots of energy to be played in one turn such as welder, pokemon that just allow you to play any number of energy that's in your hand, pokemon that let you attach multiple energy from your deck (i.e. ADP which does that on top of OHKOing for 3 prizes...), as well as cards that allow for so many draws per turn like Dedenne and Crobat that when combined with supporters allow you to draw like half your deck on the first turn.

    There is a reason supporters are one per turn and putting supporter effects on playing 2 prize pokemon just removes that limitation. The only decks that can hard punish using these pokemon are fighting decks in some situations, but mostly just ADP as I've found with most decks it's usually best to target something on the bench that are persistent problems (i.e. damage dealers or pokemon that have strong effects that they use every turn) rather than something that will get you a few prizes but not really set your opponent back other than that.
 

cardgjammer

Aspiring Trainer
Member
The upcoming Empoleon will block all pokemon w/ abilities bar those w/ Ruleboxes, making it harder for pokemon like Spiritomb UNB, Bench Barrier Mew/Mr.Mime, even Galarian Zigzagoon, to trump the multi-prizers that include ADP.

Single-prize pokemon are becoming less and less significant every expansion that comes out. And yet one glaring ability provides a dilemma: If they can mention "Ruleboxes" in place of GX/Vs, etc. on that card, then why can't they do the same, in some different context and words that benefits the single-prizer? If they give a single-prizer or more an Ability that blocks Ruleboxed pokemon's abilities and attacks from affecting them, then that could shut down ADP decks that don't have Aegislash V and its attack that shreds through such abilities to deal damage anyway, as well as enabling such single-prizer a chance to go toe-to-toe vs. Vs and GXes, no worries about big basics that give two or more prizes under normal conditions, the power creep of pokemon Vs cannot monopolize the metagame!

Right now, ADP makes the game TOO easy:

On turn 2, or the first turn of the player going second, use AC-GX, either via normal attachments, or after discarding a metal energy first then drawing a water second then attaching the water to ADP third then metal saucer to attach a metal energy to Zacian V from the discard fourth then energy switch to move zacian's energy to ADP fifth...

...Then, on turn 4, or second turn of player going second, Boss's Orders a Dedenne-GX/Crobat V, or any other two-prize pokemon w/ less than 180 displayed max HP, out to throw to the discard w/ Ultimate Ray, and attach 3 metals to Zacian from UR's attack effect.

...Then, on turn 6, third turn of player going second, once Zacian V comes out, even if a VMAX comes out to the active, game over regardless after one boss's orders to another two-prizer, or even a tag team w/ 260 or less max HP post-AC-GX, at a minimum, un-resisted(meaning, in the event the pokemon is resistant to Metal, such max KO bar would be adjusted to 240, even though Metal isn't resisted by any type in terms of cards printed in sword & shield and after, and that the only cards that do resist Metal that are still legal in Standard have been printed before Sword & Shield, and thus, have a Resistance of -20, NOT -30), after consideration of tool cards, abilities, among other examples of boosts from both sides...

^ Certainly, we need more single-prizers than just Blacephalon UNB that can go toe-to-toe w/ Pokemon V/GX, as Decidueye DAB AND Altaria CPA is not enough... At least not while Metal now has a -30 Grass Resistance in case of the former, and too little damage in the case of the latter... :(
 
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Diego Lima

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I don't like people's suggestions that I often see, to make more pokémon with either abilities that simply wall multi-prizers or attacks that make the attacker invulnerable to multi-prizers the next turn, I always thought that was lazy design, also too 2-dimensional, it either matters (i.e. you're facing the type of card the ability/attack is supposed to hose) and completely shuts down the opponent, or it's not relevant and you're left with a half or completely useless ability/attack. I don't like that, things should be more nuanced, and there's plenty of design space to do so.
 

Yaginku

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I don't like people's suggestions that I often see, to make more pokémon with either abilities that simply wall multi-prizers or attacks that make the attacker invulnerable to multi-prizers the next turn,
I don't think anyone "suggests" that, since that's exactly what we have now - every semi-viable nonRuleBox Pokemon either has some form of non-interactive wall ability (Decidueye, Altaria) or insane burst damage output (Blacephalon, Mad Party).

Here's a thought though - assuming they genuinely want to get rid of RoBlox Pokemon, removing this entire sub-section of extremely chased and pack-selling cards would be very awkward. We'd have to wait at least until the end of Sword & Shield, and even then it's possible the next expansion block would live in the shadows of the overpowered VMAXes for almost a year. However, there is a massively big brain move available here - create "Evolution"/SPO format, allow it to be played alongside Standard, push it hard so it gradually replaces Standard without actually removing it, and then keep these big, shiny cards for collectors in a format that nobody plays. Like, nobody wants the shiny Charizard VMAX to actually play with it.
 
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