OU: Strategy The X and Y Metagame Discussion Thread

[iSharingan]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

In my opinion, physical Greninja>Special Greninja. It gives you Water Shuriken, which is fantastic for revenging Excadrill, Blaziken and Talonflame. You've also got U-Turn, which you get STAB on. Shadow Sneak, Rock Slide, Waterfall, Night Slash and Aerial Ace are other options as well (I like Waterfall because it's the strongest move, and Shadow Sneak because it lets you revenge kill weakened Gengar and Aegislash.)

You forgot Acrobatics . In any case I've been saying physical > mixed/special for about a week now.

 

[Professor Palutena]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

A very nice point. However, the majority of flaws I mentioned before still apply, and the offense problem is more apparent than before, as Greninja has even lower Attack than Special Attack. Good thing is that it gets a lot of physical STAB priority, which can nullify its own problem with Scarfers and priority attackers.

I really do think you're underrating Greninja's offensive capabilities.

Starmie runs Thunderbolt for coverage, which is base 90 power now. Greninja can run Hidden Power Electric and achieve the same base 90 power.

Latios runs HP Fire for coverage. 60 BP. Greninja's HP Fire is 90 BP.

Gengar runs Focus Blast for coverage. 120 BP. If Greninja ran Focus Blast for coverage, it'd by 180 BP.

Are you disappointed that it doesn't get Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Aura Sphere, Dragon Pulse, Air Slash, Moonblast, etc?

 

[Keeper of Night]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

A very nice point. However, the majority of flaws I mentioned before still apply, and the offense problem is more apparent than before, as Greninja has even lower Attack than Special Attack. Good thing is that it gets a lot of physical STAB priority, which can nullify its own problem with Scarfers and priority attackers.

I really do think you're underrating Greninja's offensive capabilities.

Starmie runs Thunderbolt for coverage, which is base 90 power now. Greninja can run Hidden Power Electric and achieve the same base 90 power.

Latios runs HP Fire for coverage. 60 BP. Greninja's HP Fire is 90 BP.

Gengar runs Focus Blast for coverage. 120 BP. If Greninja ran Focus Blast for coverage, it'd by 180 BP.

Are you disappointed that it doesn't get Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Aura Sphere, Dragon Pulse, Air Slash, Moonblast, etc?

It actually doesn't get Focus Blast like Gengar does though.
For a ninja, he kind of has a lack-luster special move pool.

So I think I'm going to go with Physical > Special for now.

 

[Professor Palutena]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

In my opinion, physical Greninja>Special Greninja. It gives you Water Shuriken, which is fantastic for revenging Excadrill, Blaziken and Talonflame. You've also got U-Turn, which you get STAB on. Shadow Sneak, Rock Slide, Waterfall, Night Slash and Aerial Ace are other options as well (I like Waterfall because it's the strongest move, and Shadow Sneak because it lets you revenge kill weakened Gengar and Aegislash.)

You forgot Acrobatics . In any case I've been saying physical > mixed/special for about a week now.

Interesting. Because Flying Gem doesn't exist in OU right now, do you run a no-item set?

 

[iSharingan]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

You forgot Acrobatics . In any case I've been saying physical > mixed/special for about a week now.

Interesting. Because Flying Gem doesn't exist in OU right now, do you run a no-item set?

I read all gems were available via rock smash, just super rare... There's at least a Normal Gem in Terminus Cave, so I'm not sure they'd taunt us like that if they weren't obtainable.

And I assume you mean 'XY' when you say 'OU'

 

[Chaos Jackal]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Are you disappointed that it doesn't get Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Aura Sphere, Dragon Pulse, Air Slash, Moonblast, etc?

Yeah, mostly. It's just that you're playing Physical with 95 Attack because you can't take good advantage of 103 Special Attack due to lack of moves. But I guess that I am a bit pessimistic... I have only tried Special sets up until now to be honest, so my opinion on the Physical set isn't very valid.

 

[One Approved]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

It's just that you're playing Physical with 95 Attack because you can't take good advantage of 103 Special Attack due to lack of moves.

I'm not sure I understand why we're so upset with Greninja's offensive potential.

Greninja gets Water Move/Ice Beam/HP electric. What more moves could you possibly want? That's literally the same exact moves as Starmie, but with base 3 higher Special attack, STAB on everything, and a speed tier that allows it to outspeed Dugtrio, Alakazam, Tornadus-T, and +1 Tyranitar. It's literally just a more powerful, faster Starmie. Yes, Starmie has Rapid Spin. And Recover. And 60/85/85 defenses with resistances to Fighting and Psychic. Starmie has its reasons to be used. However, as far as pure, offensive power and sweeping ability is concerned, Greninja is superior to it in every way.

As for Physical Greninja, ChillBill brings up a valid point. If you look at Black/White OU, how many pokemon in that entire tier with base 95 or less Attack were able to successfully run physically offensive sets? 3, those pokemon being Dugtrio, Venusaur, and Gliscor. 1 of these pokemon relied on its ability to trap weak opponents, the other two relied on Swords Dance whenever they intended to sweep. Greninja's ability is nice, but it doesn't actually add that much power. Look at Gastrodon in BW OU. The Offensive Gastrodon set barely worked, and it got STAB, +1, AND Life Orb. Greninja doesn't even have that. Greninja does have a cool niche in obnoxsiouly high speed, U-turn, and Water Shuriken, but I really doubt the potential of an all-out physical set. It lacks overall power, it does lack a bit of coverage (you don't get the luxury of Ice Punch), and the only "boosting" move you have is Power-Up Punch. I feel like I'd much rather stick to either an all-out Special set, or a 3 Special Attacks + U-turn set.

However, this is all theorymon. Physical Greninja does have a decent surprise factor to it. It hits through sub, STAB U-turn shuts down a lot of Water-types usual counters (ie: Celebi), and while you lack Ice Punch, you have other moves to make up for it. You're just forced into an awkward "pick your poison" kind of deal. U-turn, Water Shuriken, and then you've got 2 moves to pick between Waterfall, Night Slash, Acrobatics, and Rock Slide, depending on what you want to hit. (Waterfall for consistency, Night Slash for Jellicent, Latias, and Latios, Acrobatics for Grass-types and Fighting-types as well as Protean giving you a Grass/Fighting Resistance, while Rock Slide hits Dragonite, Salamence, and Non-mega Gyarados.)

 

[Keeper of Night]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

What about Speed Boost Scolipede? Does it have better potential now with its new ability and an Attack buff?

 

[Keeper of Night]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Speed Boost Scolipede

what

Some pokemon had their HA changed. Venipede got Speed Boost instead of Quick Feet.

On a related note, Chandelure got Infiltrator. Not as great as Shadow Tag, but it has it's uses.

 

[Uralya]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Speed Boost Scolipede

what

They changed its Hidden Ability in Gen 6. #greninjad

As far as SB Scolipede goes, that has to be the single biggest improvement to a Pokémon this entire generation. It gets Baton Pass and Swords Dance as well, plus Megahorn and Earthquake. I consider it as Ninjask but exponentially better. Definitely has a niche in OU/will be OU. Shouldn't really need explaining, but Scolipede is that much better.

~AoH

 

[Professor Palutena]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Offensive Gastrodon did not work because it was as slow as molasses, not because it didn't hit hard.

Why are we using Greninja as a sweeper? Those stats should tell you that it is not cut out for sweeping. It's a revenge killer. One that, like Dugtrio, has no counters in the strictest sense of the word, because each typing changes what counters it. Flying type Greninja has totally different counters than Ghost type Greninja, and it can go from Electric to flying in a turn.

Anyways, physical Greninja picks off all of the popular threats right now, with the lone exception of Azumarill. You revenge kill Talonflame, Blaziken, Excadrill and Mega Gengar (always run shadow sneak because it revenges every Mega Gengar and most Aegislash). I doubt Ice Punch would even make the standard set because it doesn't have the room for it. Maybe it will lose some steam when the post-release hype wears off, but it is literally the best Greninja set right now.

 

[iSharingan]

I can personally confirm Sleep mechanics have been changed from gen 5. It may not be exactly gen 4 mechanics, but a blastoise woke up first turn after switch-in in my last battle.

 

[One Approved]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

What about Speed Boost Scolipede? Does it have better potential now with its new ability and an Attack buff?

Well this was all but ignored so I'm going to comment on it.

Yes, it has a lot more potential now. Speed Boost is one of the best abilities in the game and unlike Ninjask, Scolipede has a great movepool to work with. Swords Dance, Megahorn, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Aqua Tail, both kinds of Spikes, and Baton Pass. Now I don't think Scolipede is the Jesus of all pokemon now since its defensive typing is still pretty meh, and its defenses don't let it switch in at all, but Speed Boost certainly gives it more potential than it's ever had with abilities like Swarm or Quick Feet.

 

[Puff-Sun]

It also gets Baton Pass and Iron Defense, making it almost a staple on baton pass teams now.

On a different note, has anyone played around with Pixilate Sylveon? I've been using it as a wallbreaker with this set:

Sylveon@Life Orb
Pixilate
252SpA/Spe 4 HP
-Moonblast
-Hyper Beam
-Calm Mind
-Shadow Ball.

At +1, the only thing I've seen live a Hyper Beam was a Chansey, and that lived with 3%. At +2, nothing would survive that except maybe Specially Defensive Heatran. Hyper Beam hits almost 200 BP with Pixillate. Add that to STAB, boosts, and Sylveon's high attacking stats and you get something approaching the power Explosion Metagross used to have. With the steel nerf, Fairy/Ghost hits everything in the game but Mawile iirc. It also has fantastic special bulk as well, so after a boost you aren't really taking damage from anything on that side.

 

[Their Goominess]

It also gets Baton Pass and Iron Defense, making it almost a staple on baton pass teams now.

On a different note, has anyone played around with Pixilate Sylveon? I've been using it as a wallbreaker with this set:

Sylveon@Life Orb
Pixilate
252SpA/Spe 4 HP
-Moonblast
-Hyper Beam
-Calm Mind
-Shadow Ball.

At +1, the only thing I've seen live a Hyper Beam was a Chansey, and that lived with 3%. At +2, nothing would survive that except maybe Specially Defensive Heatran. Hyper Beam hits almost 200 BP with Pixillate. Add that to STAB, boosts, and Sylveon's high attacking stats and you get something approaching the power Explosion Metagross used to have. With the steel nerf, Fairy/Ghost hits everything in the game but Mawile iirc. It also has fantastic special bulk as well, so after a boost you aren't really taking damage from anything on that side.

Hyper Beam is generally avoided in competitive; it does hit hard (especially with Pixilate Sylveon like you said) but it does give the opponent a turn to set up, set a status condition or something.
I can see this possibly working with proper setup - it would slay if Sylveon managed to get some Speed raises through Baton Pass, but on its own I don't think it could manage OU (shoutout to Scizor who has got Technician Bullet Punch to hit Sylveon for SE damage).
If you're set on using it though, I'd switch something for HP Fire; it gives Sylveon an advantage over Scizor and Steel types in general.
It's a shame with Pixilate, the only Pokemon that get it have better Fairy type move options to use (Moonblast). And it's not like Moonblast is bad, it could do very well after a couple Sp.A boosts.

*also, Ghost hits Mawile neutrally, but Fairy/Ghost is only resisted (iirc) by Litleo/Pyroar*

 

[Reggie McGigas]

It also gets Baton Pass and Iron Defense, making it almost a staple on baton pass teams now.

On a different note, has anyone played around with Pixilate Sylveon? I've been using it as a wallbreaker with this set:

Sylveon@Life Orb
Pixilate
252SpA/Spe 4 HP
-Moonblast
-Hyper Beam
-Calm Mind
-Shadow Ball.

At +1, the only thing I've seen live a Hyper Beam was a Chansey, and that lived with 3%. At +2, nothing would survive that except maybe Specially Defensive Heatran. Hyper Beam hits almost 200 BP with Pixillate. Add that to STAB, boosts, and Sylveon's high attacking stats and you get something approaching the power Explosion Metagross used to have. With the steel nerf, Fairy/Ghost hits everything in the game but Mawile iirc. It also has fantastic special bulk as well, so after a boost you aren't really taking damage from anything on that side.

Hyper Beam is generally avoided in competitive; it does hit hard (especially with Pixilate Sylveon like you said) but it does give the opponent a turn to set up, set a status condition or something.
I can see this possibly working with proper setup - it would slay if Sylveon managed to get some Speed raises through Baton Pass, but on its own I don't think it could manage OU (shoutout to Scizor who has got Technician Bullet Punch to hit Sylveon for SE damage).
If you're set on using it though, I'd switch something for HP Fire; it gives Sylveon an advantage over Scizor and Steel types in general.
It's a shame with Pixilate, the only Pokemon that get it have better Fairy type move options to use (Moonblast). And it's not like Moonblast is bad, it could do very well after a couple Sp.A boosts.

*also, Ghost hits Mawile neutrally, but Fairy/Ghost is only resisted (iirc) by Litleo/Pyroar*

I'm new to competitive battling, but Hyper Beam/Giga Impact seems like a good move when your opponent is down to his/her last Pokemon. Mega Pinsir and Sylveon seem like good Hyper Beamers.

 

[Puff-Sun]

I know why Hyper Beam is avoided. I used it on that particular set because if you get your sweep going, you often can't take out their whole team before you die of LO damage, so Hyper Beam is useful on that last turn to smash whatever wall they sent in to stall you out.

 

[Their Goominess]

I know why Hyper Beam is avoided. I used it on that particular set because if you get your sweep going, you often can't take out their whole team before you die of LO damage, so Hyper Beam is useful on that last turn to smash whatever wall they sent in to stall you out.

If that's a problem, here's a solution (and probably more effective overall):
Sylveon @ Life Orb
252 Sp.A / 252 HP / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
-Calm Mind
-Moonblast
-HP Fire
-Draining Kiss

this keeps the same kinda vibe you had, but with a couple differences:
-Moonblast obviously replaces HBeam as the Fairy move of choice
-HP Fire is used over Shadow Ball since because it gives it a real thing to hit Scizor with and after a couple boosts it can do adequate damage
-Draining Kiss is used to heal. I know 50 damage (75 after STAB) isn't that great, but since you made a point about it losing HP then DK is the best option to go for, and it could do decently after a couple CM boosts.

Stored Power can also be used, but it doesn't really help; the only thing here that Sylveon should really have it for are Poison types, but Sylveon should be switched out for something else then.

On the topic of Sylveon, I have a specially defensive set:
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Calm nature (+ SpD, - Atk)
252 Sp.D / 252 HP / 4 Def
-Wish
-Protect
-Toxic/Roar
-Moonblast

this setup makes Sylveon into something similar to Wish Support Vaporeon; Wish/Protect give Sylveon a reliable HP recovery, Toxic and Roar are something of a toss up; if you want to be able to set a status condition then go for Toxic, and Roar if you abuse entry hazards. Moonblast is so it isn't complete Taunt-bait, and even tho it has no Sp.A EVs, it's still a 95 bp attack coming from 110 sp.a

 

[Shining Goodra]

Any tips on getting a specific HP?

 

[King Arceus]

Any tips on getting a specific HP?

You basically have to know the IVs of Pokemon so they have to be of an adequate level to accurately check them since the Judge only looks at the best stats and if a stat is a 0. You'll be harder pressed trying to get 30s since if you have a 31, the judge will not say so.