Discussion The New "Safeguard" Abilities are Broken...

Discussion in 'PTCG Competitive Play' started by crystal_pidgeot, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    From a game design stand point. Both Alolan Ninetales and Hoopa were given Abilities that block all effects of attacks and damage done to it by Pokemon-EX and Pokemon-GX and this is a problem. I understand this was done to give them usage in Expanded but this is where the problem lies. These new Abilities shouldn't target Pokemon-EX because their mechanic isn't in the Sun and Moon meta and would make them too strong in Expanded.

    This would be like if Safeguard (yes I know older cards won't reference this) targeted Pokemon-GX. I feel Pokemon don't have to do everything and them removing Pokemon-EX from the clause would maintain the balance of Expanded (this isn't saying much) since player would have to pick and choose what to run and prepare for since Hoopa now invalidates all Pokemon with Safeguard.

    I wish I could say this was an oversight but with the way they have been designing cards, this can't be the case. I know most other, if any Pokemon players will have a problem with this but the fact they are still targeting Pokemon-EX when they have no relevance in Sun and Moon is worrying to me. They could at least give them some more support if they are going to do this. At least some more Mega support.
     


  2. Fayld Rayquaza / Eelektross Master
    Fayld

    Member

    Disagree. The new safeguard effects are just fine and are easily played around in expanded. If anything, I think they are more broken in standard because there isn't something like Hex Maniac readily available as an out to something with that ability and, for the most part, there aren't really non-GX attackers in the post September rotation that are going to see much play. There are some exceptions like Baby Volcanion, but overall I think these cards are going to give non-Garbodor decks some real headaches.
     
    Elray and JDA like this.
  3. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    This is why they are broken. Not only because of the lack of Hex Maniac, but also because of the lack of non-GX attackers. If not for the clause on Pokemon-EX, they could be used as a way to beat this, as Safeguard doesn't block Pokemon-GX, and I don't expect it to should the Ability returns to the game. It also forces players to have to run very specific decks to beat it.

    If Pokemon-EX are going to continue to exist, they should be the target of such effects.
     
  4. Fayld Rayquaza / Eelektross Master
    Fayld

    Member

    It is really the lack of GX attackers that matters the most IMO. I mean, you could make a Raikou / Koko deck, but it probably isn't good enough. You could play something like Komo-o, but then you get slapped by everything else. Dunno. I am not super thrilled about the cards in Standard.
     
  5. Expert_Occultist Magic card player
    Expert_Occultist

    Member

    Or we can wait for these cards to see play in a high level tournament setting and analyse the results before we come to conclusions?
     
  6. 21times Aspiring Trainer
    21times

    Member

    I'm not familiar with the Hoopa, it's not in BUS but I actually have Ninety less in my top 10 because of that. It's going to force us to balance our decks because Alolan Vulpix is becoming more and more popular it'll be very easy to splash in a Ninetales.

    Having said that, Greninja, Volcanion, Zoroark, Vikavolt, Oranguru, Wobbuffet, and umm some other Psychic Pokémon that looks like a pile of garbage.
     
  7. I disagree. If you're really worried about it being so called "broken" in standard, there have been these things before. There was no Hex Norway to shut it off, you had to utilize a non-EX Pokemon.
     
    HT F8 likes this.
  8. Xeynid Aspiring Trainer
    Xeynid

    Member

    This thread is specifically about game design, so the actually tournament success isn't the issue here.

    I personally think that cards like this are kind of stupid on account of the fact that they rely on turning the game into one player sitting there spamming weak attacks while the other player just sits there praying to draw their one out, but otherwise neither player does anything.

    However, if you're going to take the stance that safeguard targeting GX pokemon is totally fine, then you have to accept that targeting EX pokemon is equally valid. In the end, no matter which one(s) it targets, the ability is designed around forcing your opponent to use attackers that they normally wouldn't want in their deck. Forcing players to use EX pokemon as attackers is exactly the same as forcing them to use Non-ex/gx attackers, in terms of game design.
     
  9. Rindon Aspiring Trainer
    Rindon

    Member

    Having used Sigilyph and Suicune in most of my past deck builds I love safeguard. There are ways around it such as Lysandre. As @21times mentioned previously there are many non gx-ex attackers that are used in many decks currently. Here's a thought if you run Metagross gx...throw in a non-gx Metagross, running bulu means you already run non-gx vikavolt....etc. The point is that decks will need to be constructed taking this into account, (similar to how many decks have already adjusted to Trashalanche). I don't see safeguard as any different than someone running glaceon-crystal ray, it just means that you have another strategy to counter against (ie ensure you have at least one non-gx attacker)when you build a deck.
     
    21times likes this.
  10. Rezolution Professional Idiot
    Rezolution

    Member

    Ok just saying, we need to turn off the ability here. Garbodor from breakpoint anyone?
     
    Alphahitman4 and 21times like this.
  11. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    I feel I should say this isn't supposed to be about the old Safeguard or things that some decks are already running. It's that this new Safeguard blocks Pokemon-EX, which could be used to beat these new mons where as Pokemon-GX can get around the old Safeguard. The point isn't to force people to use something they don't want to because of bad design. You have to remember these two Pokemon are designed for Sun and Moon on. Non Pokemon-GX we have now aren't that good and opponent's aren't going to wait for you to build up a non GX.
     
  12. Akiro Aspiring Trainer
    Akiro

    Member

    I understand your point for expanded but as it is now and the 2018 format we are not yet in a sun moon only format therefor we still have EXes on the scene. The imunity against EXes and GXes is important there. Maybe later we'll see immunity against GXes only.
     
  13. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    This is what I mean though, why does A. Ninetales and Hoopa need immunity to Pokemon-EX as well? It's a lot like Choice Band to me when Expanded Silver Bangle exist in Expanded. This is the first time I've seen the game target older mechanics. I bet this is because of Expanded and now it's ruining my Standard, lol.
     
  14. Mora Chaotic Neutral
    Mora

    Member

    I'll agree it's odd for the newer cards to reference an older mechanic, but I don't think it's broken. There are plenty of answers to it. Non EX attackers (which you should already be playing anyways), Hex Maniac. Your argument is that it's broken because it references both EX and GX, but most decks in Expanded have always had some answer to Safeguarders anyways. The fact that there is another Safeguarder, but it also blocks GX too, doesn't change much of anything. It's just another Safeguarder to deal with.
     
    Gengar master likes this.
  15. Nyora Ticked Off ^^
    Nyora

    Member

    It's not broken, every deck should have the ability to smack in a good tech to counter it, and not only that, but the majority of good ex and GX now is evolutions, so the prevos of those evolutions, like metang in metagross, helps combat these safeguard mons.
     
    Alphahitman4 likes this.
  16. VandalizeVolbeat Aspiring Trainer
    VandalizeVolbeat

    Member

    I don´t think the abillity is broken, but I think it´s really annoying. You are forced to Play at least one non-GX/EX- Attacker. This makes Deckbuilding much more difficult.
     
    HT F8 and JDA like this.
  17. JDA Aspiring Trainer
    JDA

    Member

    I cant agree with the statement that these abilities or effects are broken. I agree with Volbeat that it makes deck design more difficult, to me this is a good thing aswell as the filter from bad to good isn't as clear in Pokemon now as it was for example 8 years ago. We have Guzma's, Escape Ropes and relevant non-GX and EX. This to me is actually good.

    To me these abilities are actually a great balancer to ensure mono GX and EX decks arn't something you always want to play. The prime reason as to why this is actually objectively better for the game is the cost involved to play non-GX and EX pokemon. The more expensive the game gets for a 3rd party the less likely new players will enter and personally I think Pokemon is getting a bit too expensive for some designs. Tapu Lele GX comming to mind as a "required to own" Pokemon that is just bonkers expensive to get/find.

    Now the game actually overs that rogue alternative and to me this is great. The more (semi) relevant cards, the better.
     
    VandalizeVolbeat likes this.
  18. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    I don't actually think these effects are broken. It's more of a click bait and meant to get everyone to think about what these effects mean for the game going forward. This isn't something like blocking a normal game mechanic like Evolution stages and such. It's not about meta or tournaments or the cost of the game. What I'm asking is why do these Pokemon need to block Pokemon-EX as well when their mechanic is ditched for Sun and Moon. All this can do is ruin what we have going into Standard. It's also clear this was done for Expanded but why do they need to be usable for Standard when Pokemon-GX are also usable there. It makes no sense to block Pokemon-EX as their relevance in the game is going down and that mechanic don't existing going forward.
     
  19. JDA Aspiring Trainer
    JDA

    Member

    If you don't think this has as much to do with blocking and deck construction for the format I think you are missing the prime point.

    They block Pokemon EX because these are still as relevant as Pokemon GX are and they are part of the current standard format and part of the current extended format.
    It doesn't ruin anything because again you cant just "out-rare" any opponent and thus win based on cards who are arguably too powerful. It requires you to think your deck through and even change it based on meta awnsers, such as these Safeguard walls.

    There is a lot of sence to having EX and GX being blocked by some Pokemon. As a lot of EX pokemon are still very relevant to the game. Being able to block this again makes more cards valid as invalid due to having a better EX/GX variant. What it does is keep BREAK and non-EX/GX cards relevant.
     
  20. Androsidy Aspiring Trainer
    Androsidy

    Member

    I know sky lab is rotating from standard but it will still be available in expanded so that could combat hoopas ability couldn't it?
     

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