Discussion The future of the SwSh Metagame

[jamashawalker]

This may be jumbled up but I'll try to keep it concise and clear, apologies in advance

With a full reveal of our new set comes with opinions and discussions. Personally I love that Pokémon is straying away from easy set up Big HP basics, giving more of an emphasis towards bench sitter stage 2 pokemon and skill based towards how you use your supporter cards. In our current metagame, the best attacking archetypes are ones that utilize Welder or ADP Zacian. Zacian is only as good because of it's ability+Metal Saucer+ ADP(Mostly ADP). Ever since Welder's introduction games have come down to, "Were you able to play Welder turn 1? Did you whiff a welder? How is your deck built to get Welder out+Fire energy as consistently as possible?" I don't wish to turn this into a complaint around Welder, but I am very happy Pokémon is trying to stray away from this method of playing.

All of the cards revealed so far in SwSh has shown us that they wish to put more of an emphasis on combo pieces with your pokemon that most likely can't work in today's format with big basics and easy energy acceleration (At least successfully). I see them keeping the balance of the SwSh base set the way it is before and after TTGXs rotate. Ultimately just accepting that TTGXs are just here to stay and there's no way to outright beat them other than give a huge power creep to V/VMAXs.

What are some of your thoughts towards the direction they have shown for the SwSh metagame once TTGXs rotate out? Agree/Disagree? Anything you'd like me to clarify? Also some fun combos you see for the future

 

[Otaku]

I am very happy Pokémon is trying to stray away from this method of playing.

...but they haven't strayed away from this method of playing: Metal Saucer is a new card, after all. Twin Energy (name?) is coming as well. I'd say they'd doubled down on it but that implies they haven't been doing this since BW - Dark Explorers released nearly eight years ago (Dark Patch), really since Base Set with Double Colorless Energy.

I want a diverse metagame where, even if a particular Stage is clearly dominant, at least being a particular Stage shouldn't all but disqualify a card from being competitive. That means giving stuff time to evolve. That means not letting Basics, evolutions that sneak into play early, etc. have access to strong attacks, which in turns means Energy acceleration that enables a strong T1 attack (when that was a thing) or strong T2 attack (true right now) shouldn't be printed...

...but that is how they began Sword & Shield. I'm not telling you it is hopeless. I'm just warning that this is how a TCG generaton tends to start, with a partial "power crunch", reversing some of the previous generation's power creep. So that they can do it all over again. XP

 

[jamashawalker]

...but they haven't strayed away from this method of playing: Metal Saucer is a new card, after all. Twin Energy (name?) is coming as well. I'd say they'd doubled down on it but that implies they haven't been doing this since BW - Dark Explorers released nearly eight years ago (Dark Patch), really since Base Set with Double Colorless Energy.

I want a diverse metagame where, even if a particular Stage is clearly dominant, at least being a particular Stage shouldn't all but disqualify a card from being competitive. That means giving stuff time to evolve. That means not letting Basics, evolutions that sneak into play early, etc. have access to strong attacks, which in turns means Energy acceleration that enables a strong T1 attack (when that was a thing) or strong T2 attack (true right now) shouldn't be printed...

...but that is how they began Sword & Shield. I'm not telling you it is hopeless. I'm just warning that this is how a TCG generaton tends to start, with a partial "power crunch", reversing some of the previous generation's power creep. So that they can do it all over again. XP

Both of the cards would be powerful IF(And I hope they don't) they produce basics that are powerful enough to go along with them. From all the cards they announced thus far, Zacian V the best use of metal saucer because of the ability+damage. And once we switch over to a more VMAX heavy metagame the damage becomes irrelevant. Although through sheer digging it can hit that turn 1 Behemoth Blade but this requires a large amount of combo pieces that should be rewarding if you can pull it off.

From what we can see with Twin energy...No basics even from UPR-SwSh can abuse twin energy. The best users are evolution pokemon who can barely square up at the moment but may gain some usage out of this when the metagame isn't a T1 speed fest. I definitely don't see any non-V pokemon being broken with this card, but then again....This is Pokemon we're talking about lol

I would agree though, they have to be careful about what they print out to go along with Metal Saucer because they've already seen how powerful Dark Patch was. If a Vmax pokemon (VMAX Copperjah) can abuse it, I would be cool with that plan because it's not a quick turn 1 energy acceleration. The opponent will have to use more resources for that to happen. Zacian V is on the edge but we'll have to see how it really shapes up once TTGXs are out of the metagame

I guess what am I getting out though in terms of "being happy to see" is combos such as:
Sandaconda V + Coalossal
Milotic V(Any Water pokemon)+Frosmoth
Rillaboom Vmax+Rillaboom
Cinderace V/Vmax+ Coalossal

Combos such as these provide amazing energy acceleration but you have to get the evolution pokemon to provide such acceleration.

 

[Wolfe_XD]

From what we can see with Twin energy...No basics even from UPR-SwSh can abuse twin energy.

The lost march basics get a hell of a lot of use out of twin energy, maybe not abusive levels but it's definitely a really good rougue next set. Especially with the LM Cottonee for ADP's.

 

[Otaku]

@jamashawalker

Yeah, like @Wolfe_XD pointed out, we already have at least one example you missed.

Don't sweat it too much, though. If the combos you like work, enjoy them while you can. Just... if you want the game to see real, sustained change, you've got to go deeper. It isn't just "Make Evolutions better!" I know I sound like a broken record, but I think the trick is making non-Evolving Basics, fully Evolved Stage 1 Pokémon, and fully Evolved Stage 2 Pokémon more or less equal, but balance the inputs so that it just isn't an advantage, or at least, not such a substantial one.

"Haw, I opened with my big Basic!"

"Okay... there's not Energy acceleration you can access until after I've had enough time to Evolve into my first Stage 2. You need to burn a Switch so bring up your actual opening Pokémon, or you're going to burn some healing since I'll start chipping away at it before it can attack. My Evolving Basic and Evolving Stage 1 for the Stage 2 actually do enough to be on par with the two extra deck spaces you had for focusing your deck on a Basic... and if you had built your deck well, then one or both of those extra slots you had were used to run a better opening Basic, or healing to offset the turns your main attacker is going to sit there taking hits before it can actually do anything."

 

[jamashawalker]

"Haw, I opened with my big Basic!"

"Okay... there's not Energy acceleration you can access until after I've had enough time to Evolve into my first Stage 2. You need to burn a Switch so bring up your actual opening Pokémon, or you're going to burn some healing since I'll start chipping away at it before it can attack. My Evolving Basic and Evolving Stage 1 for the Stage 2 actually do enough to be on par with the two extra deck spaces you had for focusing your deck on a Basic... and if you had built your deck well, then one or both of those extra slots you had were used to run a better opening Basic, or healing to offset the turns your main attacker is going to sit there taking hits before it can actually do anything."

ok...is there something wrong with that though? You opened with a big basic who has a powerful attack but that attack can't be utilized without support from your evolving pokemon on the bench. But if said big basic has no energy acceleration and you're forced to just attach energy manually then we both agree A.) That big basic attack better be worth the chip damage you are taking B.) You better have high HP to survive along with Healing C.) Deck building becomes the biggest factor when determining if that big basic is worth it.

To me that sounds better than... I opened with a big basic, I use the Supporter Welder and attach 3 energy in one turn, now I'm doing 120-200 damage T1 before you had a chance to set up or play a supporter for the turn. And if you can't immediately retaliate or have some long term gameplan then the game is already decided by T3.

Here is what we do know for the future they are planning. V/Vmax pokemon are going to be the focus. So far most of the Basic V pokemon are a bit underwhelming even with some of the immediate support that they receive. Most of them are that big basic that you opened with but not too threatening unless you know it has a Vmax to evolve into. In a future metagame, even stage 2 attacking pokemon like Cinderace can keep up pace with V pokemon. That scenario you mention plays out perfectly. This is of course all hopeful if they avoid printing out a card on par with Welder along with good basics to go along with it.

@Wolfe_XD

I forgot about Lost March. You are correct twin energy will give Lost March a breath of fresh air along with better draw support and searching items

 

[Otaku]

ok...is there something wrong with that though?

Yes, there is something wrong with that (the part you quoted); it was just a fanciful version of my theory on how the game should be and not how the game actually is. XD

 

[jamashawalker]

Yes, there is something wrong with that (the part you quoted); it was just a fanciful version of my theory on how the game should be and not how the game actually is. XD

lol I think we are going in circles because we both agree that's how the game should be.

Is this game like that now? Absolutely NOT. It is the complete opposite of your scenario. Thanks to TTGXs and easy energy acceleration

As I stated before hand, they haven't printed out any big basics that will be successful by themselves. Zacian V being the only exception thanks to a good ability+Metal Saucer. So your scenario is accurate

So far every V/Vmax Card we have seen printed WILL NEED help from an evolving bench sitter once things like Welder + lightning support rotates. Or they have niche attacks that aren't overwhelmingly powerful but still good nonetheless. The new Charizard V/Vmax looks really good thanks to Welder but without Welder, it looks like it'll only see play if paired with Coalossal.

 

[Otaku]

Right... so far they aren't looking too bad. Which is an improvement over cards like Mewtwo-EX (NXD), Yveltal-EX (XY), even forgotten stuff like Tauros-GX (SUM) all being so strong right out the gate.

The other area where we disagree is I don't blame TAG TEAM Pokémon-GX in general. Some specific examples are like "Why did you release that while [insert other thing] was already legal or releasing alongside it or soon to follow?" but they pull this with all cards. I repeat, with all cards.

I get that the powers-that-be don't want to plan things out as if they were perpetual failures, but it seems they take the opposite approach and ignore the times when they've goofed, returning to high risk strategies. I mean, high risk from the standpoint of developing a well-balanced game as your end goal. Potent cards that are supposed to be balanced because of costs, conditions, counters, etc. that end up not balancing them out. I'm not just talking about the "broken" stuff, either. The filler often includes the opposite extreme.

Getting back to the subject at hand, that is why I don't want to see cards like Metal Saucer. Even if it is technically balanced now - and I'm not saying it is - it is going to be a stumbling block for future [M] Pokémon card design until it rotates from Standard, and for who knows how long in Expanded. Tool Scrapper's return seems welcome at first, because we have a few Tools that seem a bit too good without such a counter... but Tool Scrapper itself was too good until Startling Megaphone outclassed it. No, Tool Scrapper was not always a one-per-deck staple. It created a cycle where Tool usage increased, Scrapper usage then increased, Tool usage would respond by decreasing, Scrapper usage would drop off, repeat. It still meant more passive Tools took a huge hit except for that brief window when Scrapper usage was down, while Tools you could benefit from instantly were almost unaffected since your opponent had already benefited from them at least once before you had the chance to discard them.

Ugh, still couldn't make that as short as I wanted so...

TL;DR: Things are looking "okay" right now, but be prepared for them to suddenly repeat mistakes of the past while enjoying the present.

 

[Nyora]

So far every V/Vmax Card we have seen printed WILL NEED help from an evolving bench sitter once things like Welder + lightning support rotates.

Yes, but, this is also considering we only have 2 sets revealed so far. Things could easily change. Even if they have to have support from evoving bench sitters, what's to say they don't print cards that essentially make this as easy as setting up a basic in the current format? We already have Evolution Incense, wouldn't be surprised if we ended up getting a stronger version of say Max Elixir for evolutions next.

SWSH looks like it is going to be a slower metagame for sure, at least going into your turn 1 or 2. Zacian V won't be the only amazing ability printed that maybe not entices going first, but makes it so much more bearable. So going first isn't going to rek you all the time. We're probably going to get a supporter that can also be played Turn 1 as well, similarly to Latios EX, Deoxys, and Pheromosa GX. And as I mentioned earlier, there are probably going to be a lot of cards that really buff evolutions to the point where they'll just be better than basics. Because you know they won't balance it even if they tried. The basics will be tech attackers, more likely than not. You'll have the good basic attacker deck every once in awhile, similarly to how past formats have had like 1-2 good 1-prize attacker decks in a format of 2, and then 3 prizers.

 

[jamashawalker]

Yes, but, this is also considering we only have 2 sets revealed so far. Things could easily change. Even if they have to have support from evoving bench sitters, what's to say they don't print cards that essentially make this as easy as setting up a basic in the current format? We already have Evolution Incense, wouldn't be surprised if we ended up getting a stronger version of say Max Elixir for evolutions next.

SWSH looks like it is going to be a slower metagame for sure, at least going into your turn 1 or 2. Zacian V won't be the only amazing ability printed that maybe not entices going first, but makes it so much more bearable. So going first isn't going to rek you all the time. We're probably going to get a supporter that can also be played Turn 1 as well, similarly to Latios EX, Deoxys, and Pheromosa GX. And as I mentioned earlier, there are probably going to be a lot of cards that really buff evolutions to the point where they'll just be better than basics. Because you know they won't balance it even if they tried. The basics will be tech attackers, more likely than not. You'll have the good basic attacker deck every once in awhile, similarly to how past formats have had like 1-2 good 1-prize attacker decks in a format of 2, and then 3 prizers.

True we are only 2 sets in, but these two sets have told us more about what they are trying to go for post rotation vs the metagame with TTGXs. With just these 2 sets we can play a metagame without anything from Sun & Moon. Albiet a lot slower but there are plenty enough consistency boosters + Pokemon to see what that would be like. They did announce they were going release another "staple pokemon card" plus those Amazing Rare cards are still a mystery on their impact on the metagame. Honestly I'm more excited because these cards might help diversify the metagame a bit more. O aaaaannnd the special energy cards for each type that will give them a boost.

I am curious, if making evolutions (VMAXs) too strong would be worse than the metagame we are in now. We all know they are going to make more VMAX support down the road. Probably at some point they are going to print out a broken VMAX card/support card with no shame lol but will that cause a complete counter balance like we are in now, where a core gameplay isn't even viable (Evolution pokemon right now) Would a Max Elixer limited to only VMAX pokemon be bad? Well hypothetically if nearly all the VMAX cards already have a bench sitter energy accelerator would it be necessary or just another boost? lol I wouldn't be surprised either if they did print out something like that, if not in supporter form

 

[jamashawalker]

The other area where we disagree is I don't blame TAG TEAM Pokémon-GX in general. Some specific examples are like "Why did you release that while [insert other thing] was already legal or releasing alongside it or soon to follow?" but they pull this with all cards. I repeat, with all cards.

I get that the powers-that-be don't want to plan things out as if they were perpetual failures, but it seems they take the opposite approach and ignore the times when they've goofed, returning to high risk strategies. I mean, high risk from the standpoint of developing a well-balanced game as your end goal. Potent cards that are supposed to be balanced because of costs, conditions, counters, etc. that end up not balancing them out. I'm not just talking about the "broken" stuff, either. The filler often includes the opposite extreme.


TL;DR: Things are looking "okay" right now, but be prepared for them to suddenly repeat mistakes of the past while enjoying the present.

Reality Check Tech comes in and this will probably happen :/ They tend to create this near balanced metagame only to introduce some new mechanic to shake it up and turn it over on its head. They are always one text/energy/damage output etc away from balancing them out. From a business standpoint this makes sense. You want people to see those big shiny cards on stream and you want kids to go out and buy more packs to get those cards. lol but that's another conversation. I do hope they take their time design wise and look back at times they messed up. High risk strategies can be done well when you look beyond the current status of today. Something they have done pretty well with these 2 sets. Let's all hope they don't mess this one up