Discussion The Future of GXs

Purrloin said:
Eventually, when EX aren't around, people will have to choose between running GX Stages or GX Basics. The latter, so far, has had EX-level HP, so perhaps eventually their ease of use won't be as tempting if the Stages can out-perform them. (But like I said, Tapu Lele might be indicating that strong, easy-to-use Basic URs will be around for a long time.)
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I am pretty sure you hit the nail on the head here. I am also afraid that Tapu Lele is going to become a 1 of, 2 of, or 3 of in every single deck just as soon as Shaymin EX rotates. Add on the extra hit points and an attack you actually want to use and that card looks broken to me. Maybe not "end of the world" broken, but costs 60 dollars a pop to procure and is absolutely essential broken. Seriously. Jirachi EX and Lugia EX should not have gotten together and produced an heir.

I think this will be the future of GX cards btw and I am worried about the power creep. While a normal "requires 2 turns to stage up" approach to these powerful S2 GXs wouldn't be so bad, I have come around to Otaku's way of thinking regarding the availability and use of stage acceleration cards. I think they made more sense in an era where you needed "anything" to give someone running a stage deck a shot at beating a heavy basic / EX deck. I think in the SM era, these will be abused and will ultimately be very bad for the game.
 
Fayld said:
I am pretty sure you hit the nail on the head here. I am also afraid that Tapu Lele is going to become a 1 of, 2 of, or 3 of in every single deck just as soon as Shaymin EX rotates. Add on the extra hit points and an attack you actually want to use and that card looks broken to me. Maybe not "end of the world" broken, but costs 60 dollars a pop to procure and is absolutely essential broken. Seriously. Jirachi EX and Lugia EX should not have gotten together and produced an heir.

I think this will be the future of GX cards btw and I am worried about the power creep. While a normal "requires 2 turns to stage up" approach to these powerful S2 GXs wouldn't be so bad, I have come around to Otaku's way of thinking regarding the availability and use of stage acceleration cards. I think they made more sense in an era where you needed "anything" to give someone running a stage deck a shot at beating a heavy basic / EX deck. I think in the SM era, these will be abused and will ultimately be very bad for the game.
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Yeah, there's definitely a chance GX will end up being abused and far too dominating. And since TPCi is a business first, they might just start pushing GX hot sellers like they did with EX and go back to ignoring the rest of the game.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think GX are the optimal solution. My position is that, if heavy Ultra Rares are here to stay, making them Stages is a significantly better alternative to straight Basics, and will fix some of the problems the game has (not all of them, of course). In an ideal world, though, I'd like to see evolving Pokemon buffed outright -- make Stage 1 of 2's viable on their own, make evolving Basics not so fragile.
 
@Purrloin

Discussion in a forum means we are all talking with each other; tagging lets everyone know when a comment is not applicable to everyone or helps draw attention to those that the comment may be addressing or discussing. Quotes are for letting people know exactly what text you want to be referenced, whether as a direct response or simply to provide context. Or ol' Otaku just messed up his netiquette: this is quite possible. ^^'

I said some stuff. Then you said some stuff which seemed to run contrary to at least parts of what I said; I wished to clarify whether we really disagreed, or if my points had been lost among a jumble of words. We really just disagree on some things, and I get that now. The EX-era was when I thought the game was at its best... but I no longer think that is because it was the correct approach. Base Set was largely broken, and after realizing it, and I believe the designers struggled to understand why until probably the e-card era. In the interim, we saw a bizarre combination of broken and nerfed cards... or maybe that is just the general Pokémon TCG design philosophy because that just seems to be the norm. I thought they had things figured out in the EX-era, but in hindsight, it was just my own lack of skill and less access to the data we have now on the game. So many decks I convinced myself were competitive... weren't. Balance, to me, means no one Stage should dominate. Making Evolving Basic and Stage 1 Pokémon more durable (and have them contribute more to the deck as well) is a good plan. Our Stage 1 and Stage 2 two cards are already plenty strong, however. Their problem is the pace of the game and the power level of not only the best Basics but the best of their fellow Evolutions.

At least, that is my take on the matter. I just see Pokémon-GX as recycling the same thing that didn't really work before, even if it was a pleasant distraction. It is not even clear if it will work as it did last time, as Pokémon-ex had the pre-erratum Rare Candy. If you understand all of these things, please forgive me for being oblivious.
 
Otaku said:
Discussion in a forum means we are all talking with each other; tagging lets everyone know when a comment is not applicable to everyone or helps draw attention to those that the comment may be addressing or discussing. Quotes are for letting people know exactly what text you want to be referenced, whether as a direct response or simply to provide context. Or ol' Otaku just messed up his netiquette: this is quite possible. ^^'
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I didn't mean anything impolite by it, I was just clarifying that I didn't intend to contradict you specifically. I was responding to the questions in the OP. It's all good with me if we disagree (or agree, as probably is the case, at least on the bigger picture).
So many decks I convinced myself were competitive... weren't. Balance, to me, means no one Stage should dominate. Making Evolving Basic and Stage 1 Pokémon more durable (and have them contribute more to the deck as well) is a good plan. Our Stage 1 and Stage 2 two cards are already plenty strong, however. Their problem is the pace of the game and the power level of not only the best Basics but the best of their fellow Evolutions.
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I agree no one Stage should dominate. I think it's too early to say if we'll run into a "If you're going to use a Stage 2 line, it better be a GX" situation, because Sun & Moon base had some decent non-GX Stages, but it's definitely a possibility knowing TPCi.

Also I agree wholeheartedly that the pace of the game is a huge issue. For instance, there is very little risk in plopping down an EX with hopes of Mega-evolving it, but there's huge risk in putting a 60HP Basic of a Stage 2 line into play; especially since the former can actually stand on its own in the meantime, unlike the 60HP who probably has Tackle 10 for [C]. The pacing definitely does not encourage giving the little guys the time they need to compete with the big'uns.
At least, that is my take on the matter. I just see Pokémon-GX as recycling the same thing that didn't really work before, even if it was a pleasant distraction. It is not even clear if it will work as it did last time, as Pokémon-ex had the pre-erratum Rare Candy. If you understand all of these things, please forgive me for being oblivious.
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It could be that GX will recycle the bad of ex with the good. A group of friends and I play Unlimited in addition to Standard (we ignore Expanded :p) and we mostly use cards from the ol' EX-era, and it's a lot of fun and feels more balanced to me. Admittedly, though, I began playing the PTCG when EX Ruby & Sapphire released (prior to that I only played the video games), and I probably have my nostalgia goggles on when looking at the era, so perhaps it isn't quite as great as I think.

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Lv.X?
 
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Purrloin said:
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Lv.X?
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Loved them at the time, but they were just getting going when real life forced a Pokémon TCG hiatus upon me and were phasing out around the time I returned. I think I like Pokémon BREAK better than them as a concept. Not so thrilled about the art, I mean, but then again if it was up to me regular Evolution would use the "stack" concept. Having your Evolving Basic (and Stage 1s) donate their card effects and bottom stats is one way to give them greater impact. Well, if the design team embraced the idea. ;)

Just barely tying something into the actual thread topic, I think one thing that threatens the future of Pokémon-GX, and yet may be a necessary balancing agent at the same time (...because the best Pokémon-GX are going to be too good) is x2 Weakness. I remember missing it during the DP-era, but at this point, if Weakness and Resistance are going to be kept, I want Weakness to be a flat +20. That's enough to matter (given how often it's a damage bonus on worthwhile cards), but it avoids the craziness caused by the x2 system or the needless complexity of the old +X we had in the DP and PL eras.
 
Do you think a second classification of Ultra Rare could pop up a few sets in? Maybe something to reference the Totem mechanic from the games?

The Totem Aura thing could play into how Ultra Beasts get cards too, since they don't evolve they'd get their own enhanced versions of cards with Totem Aura being merged with the Beast Boost.
 
Gruffling said:
Do you think a second classification of Ultra Rare could pop up a few sets in? Maybe something to reference the Totem mechanic from the games?

The Totem Aura thing could play into how Ultra Beasts get cards too, since they don't evolve they'd get their own enhanced versions of cards with Totem Aura being merged with the Beast Boost.
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I'd want them to be careful with such a thing. New Mechanics should add to the game and not be a flavor of the month thing like all the other mechanics they made.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
I'd want them to be careful with such a thing. New Mechanics should add to the game and not be a flavor of the month thing like all the other mechanics they made.
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Indeed as I said in the opening the last few sets have gone through them fast. As short as one set... But with Totem Aura being a gen 7 thing it would have the potential to last through the TCG's entire generation like M-EX did.

I have bad luck not getting what I want from the TCG so I'm just going to let come what may and curse them under my breath for the Team Flare set that never was.
 
Gruffling said:
Indeed as I said in the opening the last few sets have gone through them fast. As short as one set... But with Totem Aura being a gen 7 thing it would have the potential to last through the TCG's entire generation like M-EX did.

I have bad luck not getting what I want from the TCG so I'm just going to let come what may and curse them under my breath for the Team Flare set that never was.
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If they were to do this, I'd want it to be a permanent addition to the game, like Planswalkers are to Magic. They have their own mechanics but are still creature cards. This could be handled like Ancient Traits, they gain some kind of a buff or additional effect but could be something they keep around and make it apart of the game rather than getting rid of it but it would be interesting to see what they do. Would also be nice if any Pokemon could be a Totem but we all know they will be made basic Pokemon.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
If they were to do this, I'd want it to be a permanent addition to the game, like Planswalkers are to Magic. They have their own mechanics but are still creature cards. This could be handled like Ancient Traits, they gain some kind of a buff or additional effect but could be something they keep around and make it apart of the game rather than getting rid of it but it would be interesting to see what they do. Would also be nice if any Pokemon could be a Totem but we all know they will be made basic Pokemon.
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The Totem Aura mechanic was on the Totems (obvy) only 2 of those are basic, the Ultra Beasts which ok they're all basic, and Lusamine's final squad of which none were basic. So if the aura mechanic became a thing there is precedent for being a bit more of a free for all. This hearkens back to my original post with GX candidates, there would be a lot of overlap if they chose to follow this literally, but as I said I could see it being more of a way to introduce the Ultra Beasts and then have it branch out like how EX was originally only legendaries.
 
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Hey Gruffling, I made a custom Banner for your thread. Hope you like it.
P.S. Click on the Thumbnail to enlarge.
 
In My Opinion, I personally would be okay with GXs but no GX attacks. One of the reasons why I disliked GX was because they had a GX attack. Since you only need a GX attack once it would not be really that it would take up an attack that could be a third attack that you could use(
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) for attacking again and again. I think the Z stone should be a tool card for each Pokemon. It could be something like an aspec trainer or team flare hyper gear. Like Genesect Ex had the card G booster or G scope. You could only use the tool card attack's once per game.
 
Very few cards have a 3rd attack or 2 attacks and an ability but I can understand that with it taking up a slot. At least so far every GX has 2 attacks or an ability and attack before the GX attack. As was said Z-moves don't translate to the TCG well. Maybe they could make GX specific tool cards with an extra attack?
 
I feel GX attacks are a good thing for the game should they keep them balance. This allows them to make powerful, once per game attacks that can change the game while not making the normal attacks as powerful as they are now, though I question Solgaleo-GX's printed 230 damage. I would like it if Mega Evolved Pokemon were handled in the same manner as one per deck.
 
Throwing my two cents into this. I have to disagree with everyone who thinks Z-Moves don't translate well. As other have said, I think a tool card with the attack would have been perfect. However the move for GX attacks was made instead...why they didn't just call it a Z-Move I don't understand. I think the current shape of GXs looks hopeful. Basics, Stage 1, and Stage 2 all have GXs. So long as we don't get a wave of basic GX pokemon who have the ability to just dominate I think we can look at the pacing of Pokemon slowing down, which I think is a good thing. Once we get Standard down to SM+ we'll have a better idea of how well GX is going to shine.
 
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