Discussion The Campaign to save the Pokemon TCG

[PokeMedic]

I have what you'd call in the field : "seen some things"

I remember the years and years of threads on PokeGym making the same arguments for the game dying. None of what was mentioned in those discussions has ever come to fruition. I do know this much from experience, though: dying can be a very long, slow, and drawn-out affair. The TCG isn't there yet. I don't think it would be the formats or the cards that hurt it. No, I think it could be the players ruining it for themselves.

 

[Christopher Shehan]

You are starting to see a drop in Lele play because it is becoming a liability card. The mouse will see some play initially and in certain decks but I don't see this as a a game breaker. I still think Zoroark is and was far worse to the game. And cost in PTCG is a joke. I played magic 15 years ago, I thought it was pricey back the but it's a laugh compared to where it is now. Although, I wish I would have held onto my cards instead of ditching them as I was getting out. In my 10 years of playing magic I had seen some truly broken cards. There is nothing that I have seen in my year back into pokemon that can even come close to magic problems. Sit back and enjoy the game, players will always find a way to adapt.

 

[Merovingian]

I remember the years and years of threads on PokeGym making the same arguments for the game dying. None of what was mentioned in those discussions has ever come to fruition.

Every game had its ups and downs, when I stopped playing the first time, it was during the E-Reader series, and from what I have seen, things SUCKED. And from what I have seen, Pokemon was in a bit of a bad spot before their 20th anniversary and then things began having an uptick.

I do know this much from experience, though: dying can be a very long, slow, and drawn-out affair. The TCG isn't there yet. I don't think it would be the formats or the cards that hurt it. No, I think it could be the players ruining it for themselves.

Up to this point, I haven't seen a game get completely destroyed because the playerbase became so toxic and destroyed it. Look at Yugioh: a game thats known for cheating, expensive cards, and competitively toxic. It's been doing this for years and it's still going, even if it's been having some issues in the last few years.

I don't know every game out there, but if you know of one where the players actually ruined it, I'd like to know as that sounds like an interesting read.

From experience, games that die tend to do so because of bad marketing:

Duel Masters: This was a card game that Wizards of the Coast (WOTC) got the rights to market and distribute in the US in 2004. However, due to lack of marketing, support, and sales, the game died back in 2006. They did make an attempt to try it again and rebranded it "Kaijudo" back in 2014. Again, poor marketing and sales got it canned in 2014. Apparently, it's being doing well in Japan since it's release in 2002. Hasn't had any problems there.

Warball/Warstone: This was made by Duncan, the same people who make Yo-yos. I know, right? They wanted in on some collectable fgame action and they released....competitive marbles. The idea was there, they set up "cities"-esque tournaments and even had a Nationals. But the game died directly afterward. This was was due to, again, marketing and poor sales, and quality control. The symbols on the marbles could be easily rubbed off, which is a no go if you need to shoot them and use them for abilities. Game folded after their Base Set.

Hecatomb: Another WOTC game. This time it was a card game that featured a lot of horror elements with plastic, semi-translucent, pentagon cards. The idea was that when you gave your creatures power ups, you'd overlay them (like evolving) and the power up would be visible through one of the edges, IIRC, you could have something like 5 power ups. The problem here: MARKETING! They aimed this game solely towards a casual player base. I saw this game demoed at a shop and when I had interest in it, it was dead. Died before the release of the second set, but after the set set promo was either spoiled or released, I can't remember.

Dreamblade: This is probably my favorite cancelled game and one of the best CCG games I have ever played because it was HARD. WOTC wanted to cut in on the miniature gaming market and they came out with Dreamblade, an area control game with 25 squares to move around in and 9 of them scored you points. I could go into this game in gross detail all day.
WOTC realized their mistake with Hecatomb by catering to the casual crowd and went in the absolute opposite direction: a game geared solely towards competitive players and M:TG transplants. They outfitted this game with $1K tournaments, $10K tournaments, and a $50K at IndyCon the next year. I loved the game and thought it was doing well, but after it died (it died shortly before Indycon, the $50K happened with every player knowing this would be the last time they'd ever play the game in a competitive capacity), if you looked at the WHY, it made a lot of sense:
- their theme deck was literally a Starter box. This was the only means to get the appropriate map and special dice needed to play. There was nothing enticing for new players to come into the game, even though there were four factions in which they could create stuff with.
- price: Boosters were $14 a pop in 2006-2007. In todays economy, I wouldn't be surprised if it was $17.
- marketing: The game was geared toward an older crowd, which can be problematic.
- release of sets: because $1K tournaments determined the meta, and 5 sets were released within a year, you got whiplash trying to figure the meta out. There WAS a meta, but there was little to no time in trying to make builds that either countered the meta or did anything different, you either ran the meta or you lost to it.
- R&D : Their R&D was really poor, they ended up banning a figure by the time the third set rolled around (Kitsune), but when the 4th set rolled around, a Warband came forth that did what the banned figure did but worse (Kitsune was banned because it encouraged a combo that caused a lot of dwell time to be had on a players turn. It also enabled a lot of damage to be done, but the whole time it took to do it was a process. Anvilborn brought Blademiller builds and the whole combo was even more elaborate).
They also released a Location (Unwishing Well) that was VASTLY overpowered. WOTC did release the stats of the figure they WOULD HAVE released in the 6th set. I can confidently say that Unwishing Well would still be the dominant band to run.


From what I have seen from the successful games, you need to cater to both the CASUAL AND COMPETITIVE players. I know for Yugioh, the sales they get from competitive players is like a drop in the bucket and their sales mostly come from casual players. IT then makes sense that they make their best cards the short print Secret Rares in the set to entice competitive players to buy into boosters and boxes. You need both players to keep the game going: casual to keep the game alive, competitive to essentiall be the "carrot on the stick" for players to work towards.

I'm not sure on Magic, as their demographic is VERY different.

Pokemon is in a really nice spot as it shares the same demographic as Yugioh does and caters to both casual and competitive players. AND they managed to rake in old players like me back in the game during their 20th (seriously, if Imakuni?'s Doduo wasn't printed, I wouldn't be here).

Magic is currently having a lot of issues with their "pro" playerbase. IIRC, it has to do with their moving the goalpost on requirements for their Worlds and less prize support, and that there is little to no way that being "pro" is financially sustainable. I say that because WOTC teases the idea of solely playing M:TG as a way to generate income between sponsorship, prizes from winning events, etc.
This is something that Pokemon HAS NOT and I doubt WILL EVER allude to, and I like them for this. I know some players are able to do this. But encouraging something like this would put Pokemon in a bad spot like what it's currently doing to WOTC.

I gave up on WOTC back in 2007. They messed up a Legacy Grand Prix. Their R&D, in all their benevolence, unerrattaed a dozen cards a few weeks before the event. In the span of 24 hours, people figured out that one of those cards (Flash) anabled a SUPER CONSISTENT one turn kill--even an OTK where the opponent NEVER GOT A TURN IN. It was either run Flash Hulk or you were getting killed by it.
I got fed up with that as well as not having much of any enjoyable experience from M:TG since 2002 and sold my decks, got my money back from booking hotel and flight. Then get killed Dreamblade. And both events happened in less than a year. WOTC did their usual shrug of the shoulder "Sorry we killed a game you liked, we still have M:TG!"--they did this with Pokemon after the E-Reader series too.

I've played a LOT of HEroclix and have nothing but nice things to say about that game. I did play the game from its inception and it went into its dark ages. It kind of stagnated and only got better in 2009.

 

[Otaku]

I gave up on WOTC back in 2007.

I all-but-gave-up on them when they were unsuccessful in their bid to renew the Pokémon TCG license. Nothing can be proven, but circumstantial evidence is that many unpopular decisions - like eliminating the 15+ Age Division - were their decision and went against the wishes of the powers-that-be in Japan but were always blamed on "Japan". The best evidence of this, and again it is circumstantial (if even that) is that once the license was taken up by Nintendo and what would eventually evolve into TPCi, the 15+ Age Division was restored.

 

[RisingRaichuu]

Let's go line by line, @RisingRaichuu . I'm going to start with this: Your profile says you're 15, I'm going to take that at face value. I've been playing collectable games longer than you've been alive. Not a bad thing, but I have what you'd call in the field : "seen some things".



Keep this in mind: Tapu Lele-GX has 170 HP and Dedenne GX is rumored to be 110 HP, along with Fighting-type Weakness. Who is Fighting-type thats EXTREMELY popular right now? If it is 110 HP, it's going to be the absolute SOFTEST GX ever released and will act as an easy two prizes. Yes, it can enable aggro decks, but unless they run the risk of anything with merit being able to OHKO it since the damage barometer of good cards in the meta seems to be around 120.




Keep in mind that Bench space is a thing. It'll gain consistency, but provide some real nice 2-Prize targets. IF you have a bunch of Lele and Dedenne on your bench, I'm going to question what exactly you're running.



Evolutions have seen a lot of play this year. Even a METAGROSS-GX deck got Top-4 in Philly Regionals last month. IF anything, Dedenne gives them a bit more bite as it can remove bad opening hands and provide a bit of consistency which all Stage-2 decks need.



You MUST keep this in mind: no matter what game you choose, they are always a BUSINESS FIRST. In my combined 16 years of gaming, I haven't come across a game company that is altruistic and listens to their customer-base. There are some companies that listen better than others, but there are benefits and consequences to doing so as well. EVERY GAME will have money rares. Every. Single. One. You can't, and won't, avoid it. And compared to games like Yugioh and Magic: The Gathering, even if it got to the point to where you had to run 4 Dedenne-GX and 4 Tapu Lele-GX, Pokemon decks would still be CHEAPER than competitive decks in the aforementioned two. I was in Yugioh at one point to where the top 2 decks were $1,000 and $700. And if you didn't run either of those two decks, you were losing to them. Decks have only got slightly cheaper.
Legacy Magic used to be $300-$400 decks 10 years ago, good luck getting into Legacy now.

In Pokemon, you don't NEED to have the Hyper Rare of Dedenne-GX to be competitive. You could go with lowest rarity and they do the same thing as the higher rarity ones. Other games don't have that. Usually it's "run this Short Print Secret Chase Rare or don't play the deck".




I play Expanded. I'll go even further and say you could also run 4 Jirachi-EX and ZOMG B0rKeN!

in Expanded, Shaymin-EX is played MUCH MUCH less than Tapu Lele-GX. I'm not even close to worried about Expanded being infested with little electric mice. They'll be played as a 1 or 2 of in most decks that would want to use them (exce3pt maybe Night March who'd maybe want to use 3. But at least Shaymin-EX can use Sky Return, so who knows. Better minds than mine would know better how Night March would, or could, incorporate it).

Trust me, Expanded will be fine.




The game doesn't need to be saved. IT's actually doing really good right now. Want to look at a sad story? Look at how Magic: The Gathering is doing recently. IT'll give you some perspective on things.

I guess we'll see come February, won't we?

 

[Merovingian]

I guess we'll see come February, won't we?

There is no “I guess we’ll see”. I could place safe money that the game will be fine and both of us will still be playing and the game won’t be in a state of absolute irrepairability.

The complaints you have about the game affect the competitive side of the house. And profits made from the competitive side is a drop in the bucket compared to the casual and infrequent player side of the game.

Dedenne GX and it’s implications have zero effect on parents who buy boosters and theme decks and most new players.

 

[TorchHG]

So something I want to put out: it is in Pokémon’s best interest to create cards that enable faster setup for decks (which does extend to big basics).

Pokémon’s goal is to have as many players playing the game as possible. More players means more people to buy cards. Pretty simple.

Now, say you go to a tournament where everyone plays a control style deck. More than likely, you end up with a lot of games that go to time and a lot of people that get ties, and let me put this out here: people fo not feel great about these ties because largely it is the fault of their opponent not playing fast enough or the deck they played that prevented them from winning. Because of this scenario, Pokémon’s best interest is in creating faster paced metagames so that at the very least people get to play all of their matches. On top of that, the more people that play at tournaments, the more Pokémon needs to think about enabling shorter game times. Thus, we get more consistency cards available to us.

Now, also making these cards “chase” cards also creates a situation where people are motivated just to buy and open packs. This is pretty self explanatory as to why Pokémon wants this, but this means people are buying more products.

Let me know if my argument is off-base

 

[RisingRaichuu]

In short Mega Ray reprint confirmed

Mega Ray already has a reprint-Zoroark-GX.
Please no Sky Field reprint, though...

 

[Merovingian]

Now, say you go to a tournament where everyone plays a control style deck. More than likely, you end up with a lot of games that go to time and a lot of people that get ties

If you go a tournament with nothing but aggro decks, which is most tournaments and most matchups, you'll still have games go to time.

It has nothing to do with cardpool. It's all about familiarity with their own deck, how they approach matchups, and keeping track of their own pace as well as policing their opponents pace of play

and let me put this out here: people do not feel great about these ties because largely it is the fault of their opponent not playing fast enough or the deck they played that prevented them from winning.

I've been playing control for a long time. 95% of the time, it's always the OTHER PLAYER that causes the problems with time. I can plan my next turn while you're doing your thing. It's almost always the other player trying to wrap their head around how to get out from under their current position. Even if I do take a longer turn, it's usually due to a crucial play or determining risk/reward. And that's only going to be 1-2 times per game at minimum.

Because of this scenario, Pokémon’s best interest is in creating faster paced metagames so that at the very least people get to play all of their matches. On top of that, the more people that play at tournaments, the more Pokémon needs to think about enabling shorter game times. Thus, we get more consistency cards available to us.

I'd argue that the aggro strategy is MUCH easier for new and younger players to understand: the market they are catering towards. Has nothing to do with how the meta could or should be.

Control decks are inherently harder to grasp and pilot and will ALWAYS be a minority archetype in Pokemon tournaments due to skill ceiling.

 

[Otaku]

So something I want to put out: it is in Pokémon’s best interest to create cards that enable faster setup for decks (which does extend to big basics).

No, it isn't. The short version is that stall/control decks often have to setup quickly to prove effective, so the game's pacing not only doesn't need speeding up to combat such tactics, it could backfire and make them more effective. @_@ The game doesn't need to move faster, but it would be nice if it could slow down the pacing but remain engaging, by creating future cards (and maybe tweaking some rules) so that no deck can "hit the ground running", scoring KO's on either players first turn but those decks can still focus on setting up, including attacking to help set up.

 

[DragonFang101]

There is no “I guess we’ll see”. I could place safe money that the game will be fine and both of us will still be playing and the game won’t be in a state of absolute irrepairability.

The complaints you have about the game affect the competitive side of the house. And profits made from the competitive side is a drop in the bucket compared to the casual and infrequent player side of the game.

Dedenne GX and it’s implications have zero effect on parents who buy boosters and theme decks and most new players.

Not only that but we'll be going back in time to the 2014-2015 season where each deck had a Jirachi and two Shaymins. Strategies now will be the same as strategies then. The TCG is definitely thriving in that regard.