Discussion The Blazing Hellhound - (M) Houndoom EX Discussion
- Thread starter Asmer
- Start date
I think we talked about this before in the thread. Besides the deck needing a very careful "guider" while playing it, it needs to have a very consistent goal. In the case of the Mill Variant, one should focus the win condition on Mill itself. If a card in the deck helps that goal, then it is definitely something to be considered, but as History has shown and taught us on multiple occasions, losing focus loses games.
Delinquent seems interesting for this deck. It slows the opponent down and clears out a Stadium, which is good. My only issue is that you need a Stadium in play in order for it to do anything. Still, I suppose 1 or 2 wouldn't hurt.
Either way, keep up the good work, guys! I may have to come back to this deck for Standard if things continue to go well.
EDIT: I updated the front to include Socery's Tournament Report. I swore I had done it last time, but apparently I'm silly. Either way, grats again!
Delinquent seems interesting for this deck. It slows the opponent down and clears out a Stadium, which is good. My only issue is that you need a Stadium in play in order for it to do anything. Still, I suppose 1 or 2 wouldn't hurt.
Either way, keep up the good work, guys! I may have to come back to this deck for Standard if things continue to go well.
EDIT: I updated the front to include Socery's Tournament Report. I swore I had done it last time, but apparently I'm silly. Either way, grats again!
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I knew this would be an issue eventually...
Toad is honestly one of the worst cards printed in this game, not because of it being "broken", but because of it taking away a major part of the game EVERY SINGLE TURN it attacks. That alone flipped the meta on its head imho.
So, now we all ask the big question...
How does Mill, especially Mill with a Weakness to this card's Typing...deal with Seismitoad EX?
Well... to be perfectly honest... It's extremely difficult. We have the tools to deal with it after it attacks us (Team Flare Grunts, Xerosic) and some of us have room for tools that can slow it down a bit (Head Ringer, Team Aqua's Secret Base), but it never truly stops it. Head Ringer can be removed with the now popular techs of Xerosic being everywhere, Team Aqua's Secret Base can be replaced by their Stadium, or worse, can be a target of the new Delinquent (which can cause game for us), and 9/10 times, a Toad/X player will simply start attaching Normal Energy first (before DCE on attacking turn) to force us to either Draw in to TFG, VS Seeker for it (which is not so good for us), or attempt to flip a coin (Crushing Hammer) on a Basic Energy because of the fear of being locked out. Granted, this is even if you have the perfect Scenario of locking Toad with Head Ringer or TASB, assuming you run either.
So... we have a lot to face with dealing with this card. So long as he gets the attack off, we're locked out.
The best method of dealing with Seismitoad in our deck (ESPECIALLY because he can 2hko us) is to do everything you can to keep their Energy Count low while also maintaining your resources. I wish there was a much better answer, but considering Houndoom's attack at most in this deck does 50 damage... you aren't in contention to race him and you miss out on what... 8 cards of mill? Yeah.
But yeah, it is an extremely important question for all of us to discuss.
Yup. That's all true.
I have though, with the list I shared above, bested 3 toad decks out of 4.
Flare Grunt is key, and so is setting up Houdoom and milling.
Don't go for the KO, go for the discard-all-their-other-DCE'-and-then-Flare-Grunt-or-Xerosic.
You also have to be careful when playing decks with bats. Don't bench too many bunnelby, because it can easily be sniped.
I have though, with the list I shared above, bested 3 toad decks out of 4.
Flare Grunt is key, and so is setting up Houdoom and milling.
Don't go for the KO, go for the discard-all-their-other-DCE'-and-then-Flare-Grunt-or-Xerosic.
You also have to be careful when playing decks with bats. Don't bench too many bunnelby, because it can easily be sniped.
Seismitoad Bats, the nightmare deck? Dun dun dunnn!! o:
Jokes aside (I'm full of them
), All very good points. It's a matter of stopping them from stopping you.In the meantime...that new Team Rocket Supporter. What do you guys think?
That's how I feel.
My biggest issue with it is the fact that you have to coin flip to Mill. I've never been a huge fan of coin flips (mainly because I always get them wrong and/or get tails
) and for something that needs to be consistent, I feel like it's a cute idea, but not much more.
Yeah.
Agreed.
Sorry to double post, but I was wondering something.
With Greninja runing around, would running a 1-1 or 2-2 Garbodor line help the Houndoom mill?
It takes the place of some consistency, but could help beat Greninja and maybe even Trevenant if you get a float stone down early.
Agreed.
Sorry to double post, but I was wondering something.
With Greninja runing around, would running a 1-1 or 2-2 Garbodor line help the Houndoom mill?
It takes the place of some consistency, but could help beat Greninja and maybe even Trevenant if you get a float stone down early.
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The only reason I will say yes is because Sableye (the other mill) can utilize it very efficiently and, to be perfectly blunt, Speed Mill seems to be a bad idea right now. Aggressive decks are very strong right now and personally, I think we can shift Houndoom Mill to more of a Control Mill (seems to be going that direction anyway). Garbodor doesn't affect us at all, so we should be able to find room for a 2-2 line up. Also, I think we should start considering Bursting Balloons. Bunnelby can recycle them and they force the opponent to have to consider their moves much more carefully, which is something any Mill player would desire.
So, TL;DR...
Yes. Yes it would.
So, TL;DR...
Yes. Yes it would.
I don't know about Bursting Balloon.
The opponent will know that we don't play to take prizes, so they won't really make a difference. They will attack anyway, knowing it won't really effect the prize game. We (as mill players) don't really benefit from it
The opponent will know that we don't play to take prizes, so they won't really make a difference. They will attack anyway, knowing it won't really effect the prize game. We (as mill players) don't really benefit from it
I disagree.
Bursting Balloon stops Night March from fully taking advantage of the fact that we are a Mill Deck. If anything, it turns a very fickle match up of, "Who wins, the OHKO deck or the deck that Mills the 10 card deck out?" in to, "Who wins, the OHK-- oh...". a well-placed Balloon can honestly cause a lot of harm to low-damage attacking decks as well, especially when we have the ability to recycle it. While it is true that our aim is not to take Prize Cards, it does not mean that we CAN'T do so.
Besides, not trying a card because of a theoretical will always make a player worse. Try it, then decide. That is how we shape the Meta.
Bursting Balloon stops Night March from fully taking advantage of the fact that we are a Mill Deck. If anything, it turns a very fickle match up of, "Who wins, the OHKO deck or the deck that Mills the 10 card deck out?" in to, "Who wins, the OHK-- oh...". a well-placed Balloon can honestly cause a lot of harm to low-damage attacking decks as well, especially when we have the ability to recycle it. While it is true that our aim is not to take Prize Cards, it does not mean that we CAN'T do so.
Besides, not trying a card because of a theoretical will always make a player worse. Try it, then decide. That is how we shape the Meta.
Alright then.
I agree that it makes night March think for a bit, but for other match ups?
Not really so much.
I'll try it though.
However, I do like my 3 hard charm...
So... I completely forgot about Bursting Balloon, but I did thank you a 2-2 line of Garbodor with 2 float stone.
I played about 10 games, and I got to say... It came in handy...
Once...
I agree that it makes night March think for a bit, but for other match ups?
Not really so much.
I'll try it though.
However, I do like my 3 hard charm...
So... I completely forgot about Bursting Balloon, but I did thank you a 2-2 line of Garbodor with 2 float stone.
I played about 10 games, and I got to say... It came in handy...
Once...
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Sorry to double post, but I have come up with a strategy to beat Trev BREAK with Houndoom Mill.
Steps:
1) get rid of as many energy as you can
2) change the stadium to aqua's base or parallel city a lot
3) Play as few Pokemon as you can.
• Play Houndoom, attach an energy, and delay dropping another one until the turn before the one in play is KO'ed. They can't take prizes all at once that way. And, don't use a bunnelby unless it's all you have. It will be killed in 2 turns anyway
This strategy has worked, and led me to win 3 times. Out of 3.
Steps:
1) get rid of as many energy as you can
2) change the stadium to aqua's base or parallel city a lot
3) Play as few Pokemon as you can.
• Play Houndoom, attach an energy, and delay dropping another one until the turn before the one in play is KO'ed. They can't take prizes all at once that way. And, don't use a bunnelby unless it's all you have. It will be killed in 2 turns anyway
This strategy has worked, and led me to win 3 times. Out of 3.
I just came in 2nd in NJ States with Houndoom Mill.
I played:
Darkrai/Malamar. WW
binder drop: WW
Jolteon/Magnazone/Rakiou: WLL
M Gallie: WW
M Raquaza: ID
Record: 3-1-1
7th seed going into top 8!
Top 8:
Malamar/Darkrai (same guy as round 1): WW
Top 4:
Night March: WW
Final:
Diggersby/Puzzle of Time: LL
I played:
Darkrai/Malamar. WW
binder drop: WW
Jolteon/Magnazone/Rakiou: WLL
M Gallie: WW
M Raquaza: ID
Record: 3-1-1
7th seed going into top 8!
Top 8:
Malamar/Darkrai (same guy as round 1): WW
Top 4:
Night March: WW
Final:
Diggersby/Puzzle of Time: LL
OMG GRATS!!
That's two results for this deck! I'm so proud of you guys!I expect a full report so I can put a link on the front crediting you.
Grats Phoenix!
The Report (NJ States 2nd Place):
Warning, I don't exactly remember ever little detail.
Round 1: Zach - Darkrai/Malamar
I am a friend of Zach, and was sad about having to play him.
I was able to get mostly everything I wanted to get 1st game. Hard Charm saved me here. Darkrai's second attack + me being asleep + musclbe band = 180 damage. Houndoom has 170. With hard charm, I was able to avoid the 1HKO, and super scoop a bunch of times. I eventually decked him out. I was able to stall by lysandre'ing up his Malamar with Aqua's Base in play 2-3 times. He played switch once, and then I discarded another with melting horn. I accurately guessed that he only played 2 switch, and was able to stall and win. Game 2 was less memorable. I think that he may have been dead drawing, and I was able to Lysandre Malamar again and take the win.
WW
1-0-0
Round 2: ??? - M Sceptile/M Ampharos/who knows
This was basically a binder drop deck. Ooh, lets put all the EX's into one deck!
It was pretty clunky, and I was able to play 2 games in which I never took much damage at all.
A pretty easy win, with not much worth explaining.
WW
2-0-0, Whoop Whoop!
Round 3: ??? - Jolteon/Magnazone/Rakiou
This annoyed me a lot. The guy (don't remember the name) had like, 20 energy in his deck. All basic. All the crushing hammer in the world aren't going to keep him from attacking. What really killed me were the Pokemon he played. Jolteon EX, Pikachu EX, Rakiou (he only got Magnazone out in the 1st game). They all have (with the exception of Magnazone) 1 retreat or 0. Nothing I could Lysandre that would stay active. I won the 1st relatively easily. The 2nd, I had 1 delinquent in my hand practically the whole game. I clearly lost. Game 3 he set up a Rakiou, and because of me not being able to stall at all with Lysandre, he took all the prizes.
WLL
2-1-0, and I'm pretty aggravated about the crazy amount of energy he played.
Round 4: Vishil - M Raquaza
We pretty much had a feeling we would play each other before the parings came out. We talked it over, and considered ID'ing. We were both 3-1-0, and had good resistance. Vishil has the best resistance, as the person he lost to was the only 4-0. The Magnazone player I lost to was 3-1-0, and had lost to a player with a good record too. Expecting to bubble 9th, but happy that Vishil was guaranteed cut, we ID'd.
ID
3-1-1
Waiting for people to finish that round took forever. Talk about sitting around and doing nothing but stressing.
Turns out the guy I lost to also ID'd, so I had good resistance. After waking my dad up and telling him I was 3-1-1 (he somehow fell asleep in that loud room), the results finally came out.
I was one of the first people to see it. I looked at 9th... Didn't see my name. Ok then. Lookedat 8th. Ben Farber. I was really happy about this, as Ben is another good friend of mine. He was playing Flareon/Puroar. I honestly don't know how he made top cut with that... But he did. Shoutout to him for doing a great job.
I looked at 7th and almost screamed. I actually shouted YES. I was 7th seed going into top cut.
MY FIRST TOP CUT EVER!
I got my deck checked, but turns out a lot of the sleeves i had were slightly broken in the corners. I had to get new ones.
I ran outside, down the road, and into the comic shop. It was Timewarp Comics, and the event was actually held in the library practically next door.
I bought some nice sleeves the color of my room (a dark turquoise), and sprinted back. After changing out the sleeves, we began.
Top 8: Zach - Darkrai/Malamar
Yup. Same guy as 1st round. He had won out after the 1st round, and was 2nd seed.
I won the first game with relative ease, and I don't remember much. I was still panting from sprinting to the store and back. Being no athletic has its drawbacks...
Anyway, the second game was incredibly close. He, after being thwarted by hard charm as explained earlier, decided to start attacking with Malamar. It worked a lot. However, he failed 2 Max elixir, and I got pretty good mills. He 1HKO'ed a Houndoom after flipping 3 heads. His luck then ended. He flipped 3 tails, then 2 tails the next turn (I discarded his DCE, and he attached a second). He, with 2 cards left in his deck, lysandered up my Shaymin and attacked. 1 heads. He had 1-2 prizes left... Aqua's base was in play...
But I had a card up my sleeve. Or in my hand really. I'm not a cheater.
My 1-of AZ!!
I AZ'ed, put up bunnelby, decked him out.
WW
Top 4!
I played against night March. I won the flip and went second. My very first turn of the game, I started with Houndoom, attached hard charm, attached fire energy. Melting horn. Discarded (insert spoiler tag that I don't know how to make) 2 DCE!!!!!!
I was like. Oof. That sucks. I'm sorry.
After I enhanced hammered another DCE of his after he KO'ed Houndoom, he conceded.
Game 2, I was able to easily discard DCE the turn after he played them. Knowing I had won, he conceded.
Top 2!!!
I was playing Diggersby/Puzzle of Time.
Something I had never ever heard of.
Crazy far-out decks in the final ftw!
His deck was like the exact counter of mine. Everything I discarded he could get back and use. He then stalled with bunnelby. I would melting horn, he would rototiller. Seeing that I could not win under that situation, I conceded game 1.
Game 2 was the most boring game of Pokemon I have ever played in my life. It was more boring that online matches where the opponent doesn't do anything. Everything was happening, and nothing was happening. I would attack, flare grunt. Attach, flare grunt. Attach, flare grunt. Happened about 4 times. Crushing hammer also took away all my energies. I snuck a look to my dad who was proudly watching. I shock my head like, nope.. can't win...
I conceded after he discarded my 5th of 6 energy, and I had already used super rod.
2ND PLACE!!!
I got a mat with "Finalist" (a polite way of saying: "You made it to the final match! Then got your butt walloped!"), gold hoopa sleeves, 90 championship points, and 2 booster boxes of Breakpoint!!!
I was happiest about the packs. I had 0 championship points and wasn't going for my invite (I never really do, I'm not great).
Pulls:
FA Skyla (!)
FA Ho-oh (A FA Phoenix for Phoenix15!!!)
FA Manaphy
FA Espeon
M Scizor
Scizor
M Gyarados
Gyarados
SR Gyarados (!)
Palkia
Emboar
Togekiss
Raticate BREAK
Golduck BREAK
Trevenant BREAK
Luxray BREAK
2 Holo Meganium
2 Holo Garchomp
1 RHolo Garchomp
2 Holo Slowking
1 Holo Aegislash
1 RHolo Aegislash
3 Holo Garbodor (lol)
2 Greninja
Shout Outs:
1) Shout out to my friend Ben for also making Top Cut! (He lost 1st round)
2) Shout out to my friend Zach for making Top Cut! (Lost to me...)
3) Shout out to my new friend Vishil for making Top Cut (lost to night March)
4) Shout out to my friend Sebastian, for making Top Cut in Juniors!
7 players from my league went.
1 Junior
4 Seniors (I'm a Senior)
1 Master
4/7 of us made top cut!
EDIT: I realized I totally forgot round 4. I labeled the ID as round 4, but it was really round 5.
Round 4: Andrew (maybe?) - M Glalie
In the first game, I was able to discard a ton of energies. He conceded towards the middle of game, when I discarded basically all of his energy.
Game 2 was pretty much the exact same thing.
Warning, I don't exactly remember ever little detail.
Round 1: Zach - Darkrai/Malamar
I am a friend of Zach, and was sad about having to play him.
I was able to get mostly everything I wanted to get 1st game. Hard Charm saved me here. Darkrai's second attack + me being asleep + musclbe band = 180 damage. Houndoom has 170. With hard charm, I was able to avoid the 1HKO, and super scoop a bunch of times. I eventually decked him out. I was able to stall by lysandre'ing up his Malamar with Aqua's Base in play 2-3 times. He played switch once, and then I discarded another with melting horn. I accurately guessed that he only played 2 switch, and was able to stall and win. Game 2 was less memorable. I think that he may have been dead drawing, and I was able to Lysandre Malamar again and take the win.
WW
1-0-0
Round 2: ??? - M Sceptile/M Ampharos/who knows
This was basically a binder drop deck. Ooh, lets put all the EX's into one deck!
It was pretty clunky, and I was able to play 2 games in which I never took much damage at all.
A pretty easy win, with not much worth explaining.
WW
2-0-0, Whoop Whoop!
Round 3: ??? - Jolteon/Magnazone/Rakiou
This annoyed me a lot. The guy (don't remember the name) had like, 20 energy in his deck. All basic. All the crushing hammer in the world aren't going to keep him from attacking. What really killed me were the Pokemon he played. Jolteon EX, Pikachu EX, Rakiou (he only got Magnazone out in the 1st game). They all have (with the exception of Magnazone) 1 retreat or 0. Nothing I could Lysandre that would stay active. I won the 1st relatively easily. The 2nd, I had 1 delinquent in my hand practically the whole game. I clearly lost. Game 3 he set up a Rakiou, and because of me not being able to stall at all with Lysandre, he took all the prizes.
WLL
2-1-0, and I'm pretty aggravated about the crazy amount of energy he played.
Round 4: Vishil - M Raquaza
We pretty much had a feeling we would play each other before the parings came out. We talked it over, and considered ID'ing. We were both 3-1-0, and had good resistance. Vishil has the best resistance, as the person he lost to was the only 4-0. The Magnazone player I lost to was 3-1-0, and had lost to a player with a good record too. Expecting to bubble 9th, but happy that Vishil was guaranteed cut, we ID'd.
ID
3-1-1
Waiting for people to finish that round took forever. Talk about sitting around and doing nothing but stressing.
Turns out the guy I lost to also ID'd, so I had good resistance. After waking my dad up and telling him I was 3-1-1 (he somehow fell asleep in that loud room), the results finally came out.
I was one of the first people to see it. I looked at 9th... Didn't see my name. Ok then. Lookedat 8th. Ben Farber. I was really happy about this, as Ben is another good friend of mine. He was playing Flareon/Puroar. I honestly don't know how he made top cut with that... But he did. Shoutout to him for doing a great job.
I looked at 7th and almost screamed. I actually shouted YES. I was 7th seed going into top cut.
MY FIRST TOP CUT EVER!
I got my deck checked, but turns out a lot of the sleeves i had were slightly broken in the corners. I had to get new ones.
I ran outside, down the road, and into the comic shop. It was Timewarp Comics, and the event was actually held in the library practically next door.
I bought some nice sleeves the color of my room (a dark turquoise), and sprinted back. After changing out the sleeves, we began.
Top 8: Zach - Darkrai/Malamar
Yup. Same guy as 1st round. He had won out after the 1st round, and was 2nd seed.
I won the first game with relative ease, and I don't remember much. I was still panting from sprinting to the store and back. Being no athletic has its drawbacks...
Anyway, the second game was incredibly close. He, after being thwarted by hard charm as explained earlier, decided to start attacking with Malamar. It worked a lot. However, he failed 2 Max elixir, and I got pretty good mills. He 1HKO'ed a Houndoom after flipping 3 heads. His luck then ended. He flipped 3 tails, then 2 tails the next turn (I discarded his DCE, and he attached a second). He, with 2 cards left in his deck, lysandered up my Shaymin and attacked. 1 heads. He had 1-2 prizes left... Aqua's base was in play...
But I had a card up my sleeve. Or in my hand really. I'm not a cheater.
My 1-of AZ!!
I AZ'ed, put up bunnelby, decked him out.
WW
Top 4!
I played against night March. I won the flip and went second. My very first turn of the game, I started with Houndoom, attached hard charm, attached fire energy. Melting horn. Discarded (insert spoiler tag that I don't know how to make) 2 DCE!!!!!!
I was like. Oof. That sucks. I'm sorry.
After I enhanced hammered another DCE of his after he KO'ed Houndoom, he conceded.
Game 2, I was able to easily discard DCE the turn after he played them. Knowing I had won, he conceded.
Top 2!!!
I was playing Diggersby/Puzzle of Time.
Something I had never ever heard of.
Crazy far-out decks in the final ftw!
His deck was like the exact counter of mine. Everything I discarded he could get back and use. He then stalled with bunnelby. I would melting horn, he would rototiller. Seeing that I could not win under that situation, I conceded game 1.
Game 2 was the most boring game of Pokemon I have ever played in my life. It was more boring that online matches where the opponent doesn't do anything. Everything was happening, and nothing was happening. I would attack, flare grunt. Attach, flare grunt. Attach, flare grunt. Happened about 4 times. Crushing hammer also took away all my energies. I snuck a look to my dad who was proudly watching. I shock my head like, nope.. can't win...
I conceded after he discarded my 5th of 6 energy, and I had already used super rod.
2ND PLACE!!!
I got a mat with "Finalist" (a polite way of saying: "You made it to the final match! Then got your butt walloped!"), gold hoopa sleeves, 90 championship points, and 2 booster boxes of Breakpoint!!!
I was happiest about the packs. I had 0 championship points and wasn't going for my invite (I never really do, I'm not great).
Pulls:
FA Skyla (!)
FA Ho-oh (A FA Phoenix for Phoenix15!!!)
FA Manaphy
FA Espeon
M Scizor
Scizor
M Gyarados
Gyarados
SR Gyarados (!)
Palkia
Emboar
Togekiss
Raticate BREAK
Golduck BREAK
Trevenant BREAK
Luxray BREAK
2 Holo Meganium
2 Holo Garchomp
1 RHolo Garchomp
2 Holo Slowking
1 Holo Aegislash
1 RHolo Aegislash
3 Holo Garbodor (lol)
2 Greninja
Shout Outs:
1) Shout out to my friend Ben for also making Top Cut! (He lost 1st round)
2) Shout out to my friend Zach for making Top Cut! (Lost to me...)
3) Shout out to my new friend Vishil for making Top Cut (lost to night March)
4) Shout out to my friend Sebastian, for making Top Cut in Juniors!
7 players from my league went.
1 Junior
4 Seniors (I'm a Senior)
1 Master
4/7 of us made top cut!
EDIT: I realized I totally forgot round 4. I labeled the ID as round 4, but it was really round 5.
Round 4: Andrew (maybe?) - M Glalie
In the first game, I was able to discard a ton of energies. He conceded towards the middle of game, when I discarded basically all of his energy.
Game 2 was pretty much the exact same thing.
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Thanks!!!Updated the OP! Sorry for the delay, but I've been super busy! Grats again Phoenix!
I'm hoping to take it to another states soon. Maybe I'll do well again.