Help Shedinja rules question

sooner_fan

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Hi, I have a question about Shedinja's (VIV #66) Life Squeeze attack (Put damage counters on your opponent's Active Pokemon until its remaining HP is 10).
If I play Leon (VIV #154) giving my pokemon an additional 30 damage, which comes first, the damage from Shedinja's attack or does Leon's damage come first?
Or, since it's my turn, do i control which order the events happen in?
If Leon's damage comes first, then his damage really won't make any difference because Shedinja will knock the active pokemon down to 10 whether or not it has damage on it already. If Leon's damage comes after Shedinja's, then it will result in a knock out, if I understand all of this correctly
Thanks in advance!
 

cardgjammer

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Leon basically affects damage that is made possible by the presence of a number to the right side of the attack name, aka "hard damage", before weakness and resistance.

There are cases that the above criteria is mentioned on the small text on the bottom of attack name that is normally a sign of effect. But if a hard number is added as well, the hard number is calculated and applied before the effect is...

In this case, Leon does NOT affect the damage.

How can I tell if it does or not?

If the small text that specifies attack effect goes along the lines of "(insert number here) damage to (insert number here) of your (insert word that describes where the damage will go) Pokemon (If the damage can go on the bench, insert whether or not weakness or resistance can be applied to the Bench area here)", if the given damage goes to opposing Active, is shown as a multiple of 10, and doesn't mention the term "counters", the attack is treated as damage, but otherwise, the stated effects are generally not indicative of hard damage. Effects vary by wording that mostly does not include a constant number to the right of the attack name that would have affected the opposing active in addition to the effect stated, nor text that clearly states exactly how much damage to put on opposing Active, and since there's no number to the right and the appropriate attack text is not mentioned, in the case of Shedinja's attack, Leon does not affect the damage from Shedinja's attack. So if the active has an effect that blocks effects, if you try to use that Shedinja's attack after Leon, such attack would do nothing, and you would have wasted a Leon, which would be a rookie mistake outside of building Zard fuel.

Source: PUI Rules Team Ruling. Sub-source: Official rulings on attacks in general. Date of Source: Sep 18, 2003
 
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Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
Hi, I have a question about Shedinja's (VIV #66) Life Squeeze attack (Put damage counters on your opponent's Active Pokemon until its remaining HP is 10).
If I play Leon (VIV #154) giving my pokemon an additional 30 damage, which comes first, the damage from Shedinja's attack or does Leon's damage come first?

Neither.

An attack has to do "some" damage before an effect can add "more" damage to it. (Jan 31, 2008 PUI Rules Team)

The Pokémon Rulings Compendium has been a reference for official PTCG rulings since the days of Wizards of the Coast running the game. They compile rulings from other, official sources for easy reference. Eventually, members of "Team Compendium" (the people who own/operate the site) became part of the English Rules Team for the Pokémon TCG, so they are even allowed to give official rulings, though said rulings can be overturned. Yes, the ruling I cited is from 2008. but it hasn't been overturned in nearly 13 years. I'm annoyed it isn't included in the rules book... or maybe it is, but I'm just too used to referencing the Compendium. XP

Life Squeeze does not do damage. Doing damage and placing damage counters are related; doing damage ends with placing damage counters, but some effects skip the damage step. I cannot think of a real-world example, but if you're desperate to understand, you can risk the example behind the Spoiler tags. I worry the example is too confusing, though, and will do more harm than good. Hence the tags.

Think of it like withdrawing money from your bank account in the form of cash, then giving that cash to a merchant to pay for goods, and then the merchant eventually deposits that cash in their bank, where it goes to their bank account. That is doing damage, which then places damage counters. Life Squeeze placing damage counters directly is like just using your debit card for the transaction; the money handling step is skipped. Leon is then like a coupon that lets your cash money buy more, but which doesn't apply to debit card transactions.

You can fake a OHKO with Life Squeeze. You're just going about it the wrong way. What you need is an effect that places a damage counter on your opponent's Active after Life Squeeze has done its thing (before gets wasted). The most common tricks for this are Burning or Poisoning your opponent's Active; Life Squeeze drops your opponent's Active down to 10 HP, then during the Pokémon Check Up, Burn can place two more damage counters or Poison can place one more and that will finish off your opponent's Active. I think there are some Pokémon in the Standard Format that can either burn or confuse (via Abilities), allowing you to then attack for the effective OHKO with Shedinja's Life Squeeze. If not, one should be released in a set or two, based on Japanese card reveals.
 

sooner_fan

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Poison is a really good idea, I was thinking of wombat VV #73 which does 30 damage to each pokemon in case they retreated, but that's another attack that's required. Or maybe Galarian Zigzagoon (sword and shield 117) which allows you to play a damage counter when you put him on your bench, but that's a next turn action also.
Thanks!
 
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