Shadow Tag Suspected in Smogon

[Chaos Jackal]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ct-test-stuck-in-the-middle-with-you.3519501/
So, after Mega Gengar's one-month long suspect and voting test, and with the final result allowing Gengarite, things are taken to the next level.
Throughout the previous test, before, during and after the voting phase, there were many people who considered Shadow Tag broken. By that, they meant that every Pokemon-not just the suspected Mega Gengar-which carried Shadow Tag was broken/uncompetitive and generally unhealthy for the Ubers metagame. Hence, when the voting came, they voted against Mega Gengar's ban, the argument being that as long as there were other Shadow Tag users, the ban was meaningless (not the best argument, but I can see the idea behind it). So now it happens. No more single Pokemon suspects. Just like Moody long ago, Shadow Tag is now questioned. How much does it affect the Ubers metagame? The answer here is obvious: a lot. Is this influence so decisive and unhealthy, however, to require a ban? The answer to this is way more difficult, and that's what this suspect test seeks to obtain.
Discuss. Please, keep in mind that the Ubers metagame is in many things fundamentally different than other metagames. If you want to express an opinion, don't do so based on your assumptions from other tiers or VGC. Read a little about the Ubers metagame (or even better, play) to get even a vague idea. It will make your arguments stronger and more helpful. Now, off you go!

 

[Equinox]

I think the flat out Shadow Tag ban is stupid. Besides Mega Gengar, none of the other ST users are all that great in ubers. It's not just Shadow Tag that makes Mega Gengar powerful, it's the movesets combined with the ability and its' stats that make it how it is.

 

[GadgetJax]

Shadow Tag shouldn't be revoked. I agree with Equinox. I feel that M Gengar already was so strong, that Shadow Tag just made him more absurd. It was an unneccesary addition to his Mega Evo, as M Gengar is still very strong on it's own. I do feel that M Gengar should be kept in Ubers, but getting rid of Shadow Tag is a bit excessive. Pokemon like Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are held together by having Shadow Tag, and removing Shadow Tag from them would make them a lot weaker, as Gothitelle has 'meh' HP and Speed anyway, so no matter which way you look at it, Gothitelle is still balanced. M Gengar, on the other hand, can essentialy take a free kill at least once per battle just by using Perish Song/Protect or make use of it's ridiculous Special Attack and Speed.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

The Shadow Tag ban only affects Pokemon in the Ubers tier. Gothitelle and Wobuffet will still be able to be used in OU. Mega Gengar is banned from OU anyway.
And believe me, Gothitelle is WAY stronger in Ubers than in OU.

 

[Equinox]

The Shadow Tag ban only affects Pokemon in the Ubers tier. Gothitelle and Wobuffet will still be able to be used in OU. Mega Gengar is banned from OU anyway.
And believe me, Gothitelle is WAY stronger in Ubers than in OU.

Gothitelle isn't game breaking though, neither is Wobba. That's fine and all that they can still be used in OU, but it's unnecessary to give the boot from the Ubers tier to two pokemon that are competitively viable. As I said, it's a combination of factors, not just Shadow tag itself that makes Mega Gengar uncompetitive.

 

[One Approved]

The Shadow Tag ban only affects Pokemon in the Ubers tier. Gothitelle and Wobuffet will still be able to be used in OU. Mega Gengar is banned from OU anyway.
And believe me, Gothitelle is WAY stronger in Ubers than in OU.

Gothitelle isn't game breaking though, neither is Wobba. That's fine and all that they can still be used in OU, but it's unnecessary to give the boot from the Ubers tier to two pokemon that are competitively viable. As I said, it's a combination of factors, not just Shadow tag itself that makes Mega Gengar uncompetitive.

This is technically true. Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are not game-breaking pokemon by themselves. The problem, however, is not Gothitelle and Wobbuffett, it's the 3 dragon-type pokemon running behind Gothitelle after it traps and KOs you Fairy-type.

The problem with Shadow Tag is that there are absolutely 0 counters. Zip. (unless you do something stupid like running Shed Shell on your entire team, lol.) Your opponent, when playing properly, will always be able to pick the pokemon that they want to kill, and kill it, leaving your team weak to whatever sweeper or cleaner your opponent might have.

Another big point that team preview brought along: you start the game at a severe disadvantage, because unless your opponent does something stupidly obvious (like running 3 dragon-types on the same team) you have no idea what pokemon your opponent wants to trap and KO, but your opponent is already planning a way to trap your only check to _____. Or maybe they're not. Maybe they're waiting to see what you do to take advantage of it. Either way, you play the entire match from a very severe positional disadvantage, and your opponent can pull the trigger whenever they feel.

Now, I'm not saying it's broken and deserves a complete ban. (Especially not in the Ubers metagame, a tier where you don't enter with counters to everything to begin with, and you're forced to use sub-optimal pokemon like Gothitelle.) But I can definitely see the argument they're trying to make. TBH I feel like Mega Gengar is the only broken pokemon that uses it. Gothitelle and Wobbuffett while being extremely powerful with their abilities, I do not think are broken. It is very possible to minimize the damage they can do by properly applying offensive pressure, something that anything in ubers can do aside from like, ferrothorn.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

The real matter at hand isn't how OP Shadow Tag is; what is sought through this test is to see whether being able to trap an opponent and prevent him from switching is something that can be considered uncompetitive.

 

[Equinox]

The real matter at hand isn't how OP Shadow Tag is; what is sought through this test is to see whether being able to trap an opponent and prevent him from switching is something that can be considered uncompetitive.

Shadow Tag has been in Ubers for two generations and no one has had problems with it, only when a Pokemon that could take full advantage of the trapping + more has risen there is an issue.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

Nobody ever said that Wobuffet wasn't extremely broken in DPP Ubers. And something being legal for some time doesn't mean anything, really; Swagger was always a luck-based coinflip, but was only banned this Gen. Yeah, Mega Gengar brought Shadow Tag to the spotlight, but that doesn't mean it was any different before. Gothitelle works differently than Mega Gengar, but is a very powerful Shadow Tagger when played properly. And in a metagame where every team needs a check for ScarfOgre, a check for GeoXern, a check for EKiller and a check for Double Dance Groudon, Shadow Tag is extremely broken. However, I'll repeat what I said before; being broken isn't the issue discussed here. Of course, something that takes away one of the most important aspects of battling, switching, is extremely broken.
Shadow Tag gives way too many options to its user and too few options on the one who faces it. A player fighting Shadow Tag must play either overly aggressive or overly defensive; there's no other option when a wrong move means you lost the game for good. There's no room for correcting mistakes with Shadow Tag, and this is what pro-ban players argue; it's not a matter of brokeness or overcentralization, half the Ubers meta is broken or overcentralizing in some way. Shadow Tag does not limit teambuilding, it limits gameplay.