Discussion Seaking has been forgotten for too long

Discussion in 'Pokémon Trading Card Game' started by Smatter, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Smatter Mudslapper


    Seaking is an original 151 pokemon but seems to be completely forgotten in the TCG. It has literally never had a good card and the last expansion it was in was BreakThrough and before that it was SUPREME VICTORS! That is so long ago! That means we haven't had a Seaking card in 3 years. What other pokemon are like this? I love Seaking and just want a usable card for her.

  2. steffenka Miss Vaanjie


    I mean, Sunflora hasn't had a card since HGSS which was released in 2010, so I think that may be a bit worse :p
    Baldnitrome2 likes this.
  3. Smatter Mudslapper


    Poor sunflora! I love her too
  4. Chimecho3000 Aspiring Trainer


    Hmm wonder what are the chances for Sunflora in SM8...I'm feeling like it's quite likely.
    Baldnitrome2 and steffenka like this.
  5. WillyCharizard Aspiring Trainer


    Too many pokemons dont get love, I would like some Swalot, there is one in Celestial Storm but its based in an older card and doesnt have nothing interesting to try to build a deck around
  6. AuraJackle Aspiring Trainer


    Bisharp and haxorus need more love they look so cool and dont have special cards but friggen macargo does
  7. RiverShock Aspiring Trainer


    Seaking is far from forgotten. It's just not an exciting Pokemon.

    Realistically, barring cards they specifically avoid (so babies, Kadabra and by extension Abra), there aren't that many super-neglected Pokemon. There's just a huge number of Pokemon. And the fact that Seaking is Water, one of the largest types, also doesn't help.

    It's worth noting that the only non-Gen 7 Waters to have gotten (Water-type) cards in multiple Sun/Moon-era sets are Buizel, Floatzel, Magikarp, Gyarados, Manaphy and Palkia. Aside from Buizel and Floatzel, they're all super-popular Pokemon that would be expected to have a higher-than-average number of cards.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2018
    Otaku and Oddish22 like this.
  8. Oddish22 Aspiring Trainer


    I hope for all the neglected ones, especially the babies and maybe some day even Kadabra. But I think mostly during the last 2-3 years the distribution was quite well-done.
    Also I like that unexpected Pokémon like Magcargo, Electrode, Mr. Mime, Shiftry and Sigilyph get GXs. They might all be more popular than Seaking and Seaking is just one of many fish, but it shows that you never know.

    That's a list which has not been updated for the last 2 sets though.
  9. jessalakasam Floette is love Floette is life


    Bonsly and Mantyke only got one English card each....and that was in DP base.

    Babies in general have not been printed since Call of Legends. At least Pichu and Bonsly were referenced in Pokemon Fan Club Full art
  10. RiverShock Aspiring Trainer


    Looking at that list and what's been printed since, there is a VERY small list of Pokemon left. (And realistically, I wouldn't consider the ones last printed in the BW-era to be THAT "forgotten" anyway.) Also, considering the fact we haven't gotten a "Unova Set" yet, where most of those remaining Pokemon will probably get a card, (along with the cards they deliberately avoid) the list is basically just Sunkern/Sunflora, Squirtle/Wartortle and Lileep/Cradily that haven't received a card since the start of the XY era.
  11. jessalakasam Floette is love Floette is life


    At least Sunkern is featured on Apricorn Maker.
  12. Otaku The wise fool?


    I think this topic has unintentionally stumbled into the true danger of the Expanded Format.


    So, if you don't know where I'm going with this, while it is not impossible the Expanded Format makes it far more difficult to adjust past approaches that didn't work too well because of the overlap in the cards. For example, the current Fossil mechanic means we'll need - or if already available, needed - rulings for how to handle cards with the same name and no other distinguishing special mechanics being different Stages.

    Well, the same thing goes for the infamous "baby" Pokémon. Actually, these two are related as I think the best approach is to drop the "specialty" mechanics for them in the TCG. I'm not happy that the "new" Fossil mechanic for the SM-era releases is a barely tweaked version of the original Fossil mechanic the designers long ago abandoned because it didn't work that well. If we're going to have some "Fossil" Pokémon specific tricks, why not take an "Ultra Beast" approach to it; label them all "Fossil" (or repurpose "Restored") the way Ultra Beasts have a little text box that says "Ultra Beast", and have some card effects reference that. You put them into play, however, just like any other Pokémon: no "Only by other card effects", or "Evolves from Item" business.

    Yes, I'm getting to Baby Pokémon. Simply put, make them Basics, make all the former Basics into Stage 1 cards. Yeah, a lot of awkwardness thanks to the many Pokémon that were formerly Basics but will now be released as Stage 1 cards, and all the "old" versions of them floating around that are labeled Basics. It ain't simple, but it seems more straightforward than the actual attempts at "Baby Pokémon" in the TCG... and once you've done it, you've done it. No more problems in the future...

    ...other than in Expanded. ;)
  13. RiverShock Aspiring Trainer


    I don't see why that kind of distinction is required. There is no real confusion. It's also not exclusive to Expanded and Unlimited. Restored Pokemon are still currently in Standard, including a couple that have since gotten a Stage 1 counterpart as well.

    For instance, Shieldon is available in Standard as a Restored Pokemon (from Steam Siege) and a Stage 1 Pokemon (from Ultra Prism). Not sure what's confusing. Armor Fossil Shieldon only cares about the card's name, so it can bench either. Steam Siege Shieldon isn't an Evolution Pokemon, and thus can't evolve from anything, including Unidentified Fossil. Also, the way Pokemon includes information on cards (often much more than is actually required realistically), both Shieldon tell you exactly how you can play them. There is ZERO room for confusion.

    Also worth noting that many, many cards (both past and present) can screw with the typical way cards come into play. We have Rare Candy. We have a Scatterbug with an attack that evolves it straight into Vivillon. We have Ho-Oh GX, who can place Stage 2's directly onto the bench. Why exactly is Armor Fossil Shieldon being able to bench a Stage 1 a problem?

    I don't think making stuff like Pikachu Stage 1 makes a lot of sense. Especially for the Gen 3 and later baby Pokemon. An Azumarill doesn't have to have ever been an Azurill in the main series, you can straight up hatch a Marill, making that a requirement in the TCG doesn't make sense. Also, I feel like the issue is less about how to handle babies (the original Neo-era method was basically copied in the EX and DP eras as well, so they clearly had a solid plan for them), and more making it worthwhile. (Also, does the game really need more Stage 2 Pokemon in the first place? No, it really doesn't.)

    Also, just from a power level perspective... Babies are usually much weaker than your typical unevolved Pokemon. So them being "below" Basic or evolving into Basics kinda makes sense.
  14. pikachuuuu101 Custom Title


    I would have baby’s be basics, with an aincent trait like mechanic that says along the lines of “you may play a XXXX from your hand onto this pokemon. This counts as evolving this pokemon. All pokemon evolved from this card have +40 HP and their attacks do 20 more damage.”
  15. Otaku The wise fool?


    I think it is, because what I think and I said and what you think I said are different. XD Let me try again; if you still disagree or find other errors, let me know.

    1) I brought up how, a downside of the Expanded Format, is that when something is abandoned or revised, it sticks around longer even though things might be easier if that weren't the case. I should have been careful, as I didn't mean to paint it as an insurmountable hurdle, just an unfortunate drawback.

    2) I goofed and forgot to check and see if any Restored Pokémon were coexisting with their SM-era counterparts in the Standard Format; I knew I didn't have time to check and see if the rulings for these things were already out and it turns out they are. Thanks for catching that.

    3) Rulings are required, in part because of how much information is presented on cards. Age and experience matter. What is obvious to a 10-year-old who has been playing competitively since he was five is different than what is obvious to a 10-year-old or a 50-year-old who only started playing a few months ago. Case in point; I've been playing the Pokémon TCG - with some interruptions - since it released in North America, starting as a teenager and I still can be confused by this game.

    4) I brought up my concerns about how "Fossil" Pokémon are being handled; over the years I grew to dislike how they were originally handled. The Restored Pokémon mechanic seems worse, so now? I'd rather they were treated like all those Pokémon that are obtained or Evolve only under specific circumstances; ignore those circumstances. :p

    5) I mentioned that, if a distinction for Fossil Pokémon was "required", meaning someone among the powers-that-be insists they be "special", handle them the way Ultra Beasts are being handled; just include a text box on the card that says "Fossil" but otherwise the card functions like a regular Basic/Stage 1/Stage 2/etc. Only when a card effect that specifically references "Fossils" comes along, will it matter.

    6) I brought up how Baby Pokémon have been handled in the past, but I didn't go into detail. Due to the confusion, let's run through the "waves" of Baby Pokémon we've seen and how they worked:
    • Neo-era: "Baby" is a special subclass of Basic Pokémon, made distinct by text on the Babies themselves. They have "the Baby Rule" printed on them, a card effect that causes an opponent to flip a coin when their Active Pokémon attacks your Active Baby Pokémon; if "heads" the attack occurs as normal but if "tails", your opponent's turn ends without an attack (instead of the attack happening). Each Baby Pokémon had additional rules text that allowed them to "Evolve" into the correct Basic Pokémon, which became an Evolved Basic Pokémon. All Baby Pokémon had 30 HP, no Weakness, no Resistance, no Retreat Costs, and either an Ability or an attack that only required [C].
    • Card-e a.k.a. e-Card era: As with Neo-era Babies except they now have a Retreat Cost of [C].
    • EX-era: Baby Pokémon is no longer an official TCG term; these Pokémon are Basic Pokémon with many features in common and based on what we call Baby Pokémon. All had stats appropriate to what the designers chose for Basic Pokémon of the time. All had the Poké-Power "Baby Evolution", which allowed you to play the appropriate Basic Pokémon onto itself, which counted as Evolving and removed all damage counters. As it counted as Evolving, it also removed all Special Conditions and attack effects on that Pokémon.
    • DP-era: As above, but adjusted for the DP-era tweaks to the game, such as Weakness going from doubling damage to just adding to the damage being done.
    • HS-era: All are Basic Pokémon, with no special subclass like "Baby". All have 30 HP, no Weakness, no Resistance, no Retreat Cost, the same Poké-Body, and an attack that costs [0] to use. The Poké-Body is "Sweet Sleeping Face"; if the Pokémon with Sweet Sleeping Face is Asleep, all damage done to it by attacks is prevented.

    7) The TCG is not the video games, it just takes inspiration from it. I'm not going through every Pokémon released as a Basic to make sure that the video games had a way to catch it directly (as opposed to obtaining its lower Stage and Evolving into it). Pokémon that require Stones to Evolve don't in the TCG. Pokémon that require being traded to Evolve don't in the TCG. I'm not for ignoring the source material, just recognizing what does and does not translate well to TCG's.

    Now... if I made more factual errors, let me know. If you (or anyone reading this) still disagree, go ahead. Post if you feel like it. :) I just don't like it when I think I've said X (especially in a lengthy post) but then along comes a post (especially a lengthy post) that seems to think I wrote Y. >.>
  16. RiverShock Aspiring Trainer


    Not everything requires rulings. How fossil Pokemon work is very straightforward. I'm not going to apologize for stating they don't need specific rulings, because they really don't. (Again, how they work is WRITTEN ON THE CARD, and probably didn't need to be.)

    The TCG is not the video games, true. But it is the basis for the TCG regardless, and arbitrarily choosing to ignore something that basic doesn't make sense. It'd be like them just going "eh, nobody really likes Numel anyway, let's make all Camerupt from now on Basic."

    I don't think straight consistency with how certain kinds of Pokemon are handled between eras is very important personally. I don't view things like Restored Pokemon, how things like alternate forms are handled, things like the clauses on the Neo-era Unown and Arceus-set Arceus, and how babies have been handled as a problem. TCG's change and evolve over time. That includes gaining and losing mechanics and trying new things. (Also, which make the most sense is subjective. Personally, I feel like Restored Pokemon make more sense than evolving from the deceased remains of one's self.)
  17. Smatter Mudslapper


    Sorry for starting this discourse lol. Viva la seaking
  18. Otaku The wise fool?


    My apologies for taking what was already a bit of a tangent for this thread and pursuing it even further. That ain't right. >_< Don't think it'll be an issue, but if anyone wants/needs to discuss it further, PM me.

    So... back to cards like Seaking which haven't been printed in a while? Especially like Seaking; I don't recall it ever really having a significant card.
  19. [​IMG]
    Need I say more?
    steffenka likes this.
  20. Smatter Mudslapper


    At least sawsbucks cards were both rares! Poor sawsbuck though, I like them a lot

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