Discussion Replacing an N for a Birch

[Mariano11887]

Hi guys! Hope you are ok

There is something I've been doing for a while in all my decks and I want to know your thoughts about that.
Instead of playing 3 Ns and 4 Sycamores (or 4 Ns and 3 Sycamores, depending on the deck) as draw supporters, I always replace 1 N for a Birch's Observations. This is because I found a lot of situations where you don't want your opponent to shuffle his hand, specially when you notice he/she is stuck, and you don't want to discard valuable cards with Sycamore.
I know that N could be very disruptive for the opponent in late game when they have few prize cards left and that's why I only replace one of them. Also, if you have 4 or less prizes left, you will prefer to Birch because in the worst case where you flip tails, you'll get the same or more cards than with N.
And with the power of VS Seeker, I like the idea of having some choices in the discard pile so I can pick the card that is better for that specific moment of the game.

Please let me know what you think about that. Any help would be really appreciated

English is not my primary language, so my apologies if there is some grammatical/ortographical error

 

[Otaku]

I have been experimenting with this. I definitely can feel the tradeoff when I hit the Professor Birch's Observations but really needed that missing Professor Sycamore or N, however, there are games when it helps me out. In my case, where it seems to help most is in my stall/mill Houndoom-EX deck. Possibly that is because late-game I may have a handful of cards I need to toss back into my own deck so that I don't deck out first... but N won't work because I'll draw six most of the time, while this gives me a shot at only drawing four. This is in addition to the primary benefit of a shuffle-and-draw option for when I cannot afford the mass discard of Professor Sycamore, or to help my opponent out of a stalled out hand via N.

 

[Mariano11887]

Yeah, I see your point. But if you need to shuffle your hand to avoid decking out, I think it would be better to run Shauna because a heads on Birch will give you 7 cards, making the problem worse. Or maybe consider Judge, 4 cards for you and a disruption on the opponent's hand. I'm just thinking outloud, I never played a mill deck (and I don't think I'll ever do, hehe).
Anyways, mill decks are very particular ones, they mostly don't follow the same building rules of normal decks.

 

[Otaku]

Yeah, I see your point. But if you need to shuffle your hand to avoid decking out, I think it would be better to run Shauna because a heads on Birch will give you 7 cards, making the problem worse. Or maybe consider Judge, 4 cards for you and a disruption on the opponent's hand. I'm just thinking outloud, I never played a mill deck (and I don't think I'll ever do, hehe).
Anyways, mill decks are very particular ones, they mostly don't follow the same building rules of normal decks.

Aye, I should have given a more general answer.

The short version is that you can't have it all. What I really need is Professor Oak's New Theory; not just waxing nostalgic as this is based on playing the Legacy Format on the PTCGO with other decks (I use BRaH in Standard). I need N because if I've successfully slowed my opponent down but he or she is using sufficient resources (which usually means so am I), then I not only refill my own hand but force them to fill his or hers... which means less cards to mill from the deck. Other times I want to leave them with little or no hand, and Judge isn't great but it can work. The new Ilima is tempting for the reason one would normally avoid it; it is all luck. XD Ace Trainer is tempting for when I want to shrink the opponent's hand but draw big myself (and again, usually behind in Prizes because I don't go for them most games).

In the end, I've been trying Professor Birch's Observations because it's the compromise between them all. Shauna just doesn't draw enough, which sounds crazy as I am risking drawing one card less, but I see it more as a 50% chance of drawing enough versus a 0% chance. ^^'

 

[treyh37]

wonder how good a replacement judge combined with oranguru could be. course need to worry about garbodor and muk, but it's not that hard to get 5-6 cards from the combo and maxing at 16 if you're really lucky (with 4 oranguru in play)

 

[Asmer]

At this point, you could always drop an N for a Lillie since she's a better Bianca (and in fairness, Bianca was actually pretty good). That said, I would honestly just run a 4-3-1 of Sycamore, N, and Lillie. Then, you can follow it with 1-2 Lysandre and whatever other tech you want from there.

-Asmer

 

[Mariano11887]

wonder how good a replacement judge combined with oranguru could be. course need to worry about garbodor and muk, but it's not that hard to get 5-6 cards from the combo and maxing at 16 if you're really lucky (with 4 oranguru in play)

With 4 new cards in your hand after playing Judge, you need to use at least 2 to make an Oranguru usable, taking into account that if you get more supporters you can't use them in that turn and that reduces the chances to empty your hand. At first glance I don't see it better than simply using a Birch's Observations, but who knows, maybe if I test it I get a surprise

At this point, you could always drop an N for a Lillie since she's a better Bianca (and in fairness, Bianca was actually pretty good). That said, I would honestly just run a 4-3-1 of Sycamore, N, and Lillie. Then, you can follow it with 1-2 Lysandre and whatever other tech you want from there.

-Asmer

I completely forgot about the new Lillie! I will give it a chance to see how it works as draw supporter. But if you really want to take full advantage of that card, you'll need to have less than 3 cards in your hand or put 2-3 Lillies in your deck to use it in your first turn, otherwise it is not better than Tierno.

 

[Otaku]

At this point, you could always drop an N for a Lillie since she's a better Bianca (and in fairness, Bianca was actually pretty good).

For the record, I must disagree: Bianca was at her best when she first released, due to lack of competition. She arrived when we had Professor Juniper but no N. Once we did receive N, players tried again, and still found her wanting. She was and isn't "bad" (without any merit), but she's not "good", either; Bianca tends to draw as much as Cheren, Hau, and Tierno, give or take a card. That just isn't enough. Of course, Lillie can draw up to two more cards, but only first turn. So do I run her as just a single or double and hope I am fortunate enough to access her first turn, or do I run three or four and deal with unneeded extras past that point?

The biggest reason I must advise against this is that the problem I thought we were addressing is the need to refresh a stagnant hand without trashing it, usually because the cards are only dead in the short term, but potentially or absolutely needed longterm. That goes directly against using "draw until..." Supporters, because it means using them when you already have cards stuck in hand. For those finding they just have one card constantly stuck in hand, then do consider running Lillie, as five new cards is a solid return.

Edit: Oh, and the same goes for Oranguru; I do like the card and think it will become quite important to many decks, but probably not the ones which we are discussing. Think of aggro decks that are filled with cards that can intentionally be spammed. Not just used, but used for little to no effect even if you don't particularly need it, like Crushing Hammer being burned to discard an Energy from something you are going to KO anyway.

 

[Asmer]

For the record, I must disagree: Bianca was at her best when she first released, due to lack of competition. She arrived when we had Professor Juniper but no N. Once we did receive N, players tried again, and still found her wanting. She was and isn't "bad" (without any merit), but she's not "good", either; Bianca tends to draw as much as Cheren, Hau, and Tierno, give or take a card. That just isn't enough. Of course, Lillie can draw up to two more cards, but only first turn. So do I run her as just a single or double and hope I am fortunate enough to access her first turn, or do I run three or four and deal with unneeded extras past that point?

The point of my post was to answer the topic. He wanted to replace N with something because he didn't want extra shuffling effects and since Hau isn't better because, as you stated, Bianca/Lillie draws just as much have the potential to draw more, there really aren't many other choices. That said, I will say that the condition of drawing 8 cards is truly only an incentive for decks that want that kind of explosive potential (extremely aggressive or combo decks that use a lot of resources come to mind). For anything else, it's a nice bonus, but that's about it, which is why I only suggest a 1-of in most decks if you are to run it at all. It's the same as Bianca was and I'll be frank, the card was decent/pretty good/whatever wording you would like to use (it really doesn't matter) for the time that it was used and because of that, we at least have a record of what it could do.

Now, unless I'm missing a very obvious straight draw card that isn't based on a Coin Flip (I really despise Birch for that reason) and isn't Professor Oak (who clearly sucks eggs), then I'm pretty sure we're left with Lillie and Hau/Tierno and we've just discussed that comparison. Regardless, it really would come down to a combination of deck type and player preference. I wouldn't run Birch in aggression when I can run things like Sycamore and Lillie, who will simply net me more cards on average. That said, I'd run Birch in things like Yanmega BREAK (because you win either way) and slightly slower decks if I need to.

I hope that makes more sense.

-Asmer

 

[Otaku]

Let me preface this with something I fear people assume I don't realize: I can be completely wrong. I will, however, attempt to better explain myself as there are significant differences between what I thought I said and what you thought I said. ^^'

The intended point of my post was that Bianca wasn't really a "good" card, and that, in particular, it was ill-suited to @Mariano11887 's needs based on his first post. Since he gave your comment a "Like", I am guessing I was wrong bout the second part. He brought up not wanting to shuffle the opponent's hand, so shuffling your own hand was fine. He also brought up that it was nice avoiding the discard cost of Professor Sycamore, as sometimes you'll have cards in hand you don't want to discard. Why do I seize upon that? If you have cards in hand, Bianca and Lilly draw less.

My apologies for overcomplicating things... especially as I have a bit more to explain. An area where we definitely had a misunderstanding is Bianca relative to Cheren/Hau/Tierno. I do not consider Bianca better than the "Draw 3 cards." Supporters, I consider her on par with them. If you design a deck that can consistently empty out its hand, that is also great for Professor Sycamore, Shaymin-EX (ROS), Octillery (BKT), and Bicycle (in Expanded). Yes, the three non-Supporters I name all have different drawbacks to account for, but like far too many cards, Bianca does something and other cards do it better.

Which brings us to what you were really suggesting, Lillie. Lillie is a better Bianca, but only first turn. If you have a way to run a single Lillie and reliable use it on your first turn, please let me know, because that is kind of awesome. If not, then the choice is run multiples to increase the likelihood of pulling off a first turn Lillie, but then being stuck with the spares later on, or running one and relying on lucky opens. Qualifying Lillie requires properly evaluating Bianca, and I thought you were overselling the pair.

So... I get it. You think Lillie is better. I've read your reasons why. I don't agree with them. Maybe I'm just missing something important (like how to use Lillie best?), but if I don't want to make my opponent shuffle-and-draw, especially with an eye on having cards in my hand I don't want to discard, I'm looking at Professor Birch's Observations before Lillie. Yes, the coin flip is problematic, but if I don't want to deal with that, the next obvious choice for me is Shauna, under these circumstances. If I am really worried about reliability, then instead of Bianca being on par with Cheren/Hau/Tierno she ranks below them. Lillie is still better than Bianca, but under these circumstances, she is still no more reliable than Professor Birch's Observations; you just know the results before playing the card instead of after. You can always flip for Professor Birch's Observations, but you cannot always lower your hand for Lillie. You always at least shuffle and draw four with Professor Birch's Observations, but you cannot always draw at all with Lillie and past the first turn when you do draw you may draw less than four cards.

So... any better? The short version is that I thought you gave Bianca too much credit, and in doing so gave Lillie too much credit. Was she worth bringing up? Absolutely. I just probably made things worse by going into too much detail instead of saying it short and not-so-sweet. I may have done the same with this post as well. >.>

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I play Professor Birch as a replacement for Professor Sycamore since I can't afford to dump important cards. It pretty much requires a unique mindset to run correctly and at times a lot of faith that the two of you are on speaking terms. I don't know how it plays as a one of since I don't think it does anything special enough to be a one of in a deck. If you play it, you should be running like two or three copies of it.

 

[Mariano11887]

Great answer @Otaku !
I must say I agree with you. I didn't have the opportunity of testing Bianca because I started playing from XY, so I cannot say anything about that. But the conclusion I am getting so far is the following:

There are situations where the best option is N, others where it is Professor Birch's Observations, and others where it is Lillie. The problem is that you can't always have the right card at the right moment, so the point of all this is to maximize the odds of accomplishing it.
We know and agree that Lillie is better at the begginging of the game, I mean the first turn, and the only thing you can do to achieve it is to have more copies of that card without any guarantee of hitting it the first turn. We also know that N and Birch are useful at any moment of the game, and that makes them more "searchable" with VS Seeker.

I play Professor Birch as a replacement for Professor Sycamore since I can't afford to dump important cards. It pretty much requires a unique mindset to run correctly and at times a lot of faith that the two of you are on speaking terms. I don't know how it plays as a one of since I don't think it does anything special enough to be a one of in a deck. If you play it, you should be running like two or three copies of it.

My personal opinion is that there is nothing wrong of running only one copy of Birch in the deck if you have 4 copies of VS Seeker. It is not hard to send that one copy to the discard pile specially if you also run Sycamore and Ultra Balls. If you have multiple different draw supporters in your discard pile, you can decide which one is better for that particular situation and pick it.
But I completely understand your point if you don't play Sycamores.

 

[Otaku]

@crystal_pidgeot does bring up a good point; running just one Professor Birch's Observations means you're not going to reliably have access to it. Like @Mariano11887 I believe it can still prove worthwhile, but probably less as an N replacement than more as an alternative to that fourth Professor Sycamore. Why? Personally (so I could be totally wrong!) I like having it as an alternative to the multi-Professor Sycamore hand. When you have multiple N stuck in hand, the spares just go back into the deck.

It is a real struggle, figuring out how much to diversify your draw Supporters. ^^'

 

[Asmer]

@Otaku All good, yo. Funny thing is that when I mentioned Lillie being better than Hau, even though I used your data, I was implying that I thought Lillie was superior (I realized that you didn't think so when it come to the Bianca-esque aspect of Lillie). Besides that, everything else is fine. I still don't like Birch as a card, but I'm also a more Aggressive player and I honestly despise RNG, so that's 100% why, which is fine. As I stated, it'll always come down to a Player preference at the end of the day anyway and I do feel that both Lillie and Birch are the best options when it comes to Non-N and Non-Sycamore. Either way, you cleared the air nicely. Well done.

-Asmer

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Great answer @Otaku
My personal opinion is that there is nothing wrong of running only one copy of Birch in the deck if you have 4 copies of VS Seeker. It is not hard to send that one copy to the discard pile specially if you also run Sycamore and Ultra Balls. If you have multiple different draw supporters in your discard pile, you can decide which one is better for that particular situation and pick it.
But I completely understand your point if you don't play Sycamores.

There isn't anything wrong with it but in my deck, I only run one Sycamore and that is because I don't want to see it often because I can't afford to toss away things like Max Potion should I get a hand with three of them and a Sycamore. The thing is if you're playing a Sycamore, you will do so anyway regardless of whether or not you have the Birch and if you happen to have the N, you will more than likely play it as to not risk the tails and draw four cards. My deck is optimized to run a heavy Birch count because it doesn't matter if it flips heads or tails.

Also, having that one Sycamore in my deck, I see it like once every ten games or so and in those games, I discard it in like every eight or nine games because I don't need it and only use it if I need the raw draw power. A one of to me should only be a card you don't want to see much in a game and the question you have to ask yourself is how often do you want to see Birch and what can it do for you? Birch isn't a one of tech, it's meant to be your main draw support.

 

[Mariano11887]

You guys are opening my mind so much, and that's amazing .

You're right @crystal_pidgeot , it depends so much on the deck you are playing. If you discard your Max Potions you can't recover them easily.
For every new deck I build, the first things I automatically add are the 4 or 3 Sycamores without thinking too much about the cost of discarding useful and
irrecoverable items. From now on I'm going to pay more attention to that.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

You guys are opening my mind so much, and that's amazing .

You're right @crystal_pidgeot , it depends so much on the deck you are playing. If you discard your Max Potions you can't recover them easily.
For every new deck I build, the first things I automatically add are the 4 or 3 Sycamores without thinking too much about the cost of discarding useful and
irrecoverable items. From now on I'm going to pay more attention to that.

We are hear to teach and help where we can.

 

[Otaku]

A one of to me should only be a card you don't want to see much in a game and the question you have to ask yourself is how often do you want to see Birch and what can it do for you? Birch isn't a one of tech, it's meant to be your main draw support.

You guys are opening my mind so much, and that's amazing .

You're right @crystal_pidgeot , it depends so much on the deck you are playing. If you discard your Max Potions you can't recover them easily.
For every new deck I build, the first things I automatically add are the 4 or 3 Sycamores without thinking too much about the cost of discarding useful and
irrecoverable items. From now on I'm going to pay more attention to that.

I'm a little fussier about the meaning of TecH, but that's just a disclaimer; I agree with most of what crystal_pidgeot is saying. Probably because I'm a nit-picky kind of guy, I'll add in that unlike most TCGs, Pokémon has better odds of you seeing that one card. Part of that is how Pokémon works (versus other TCGs) and how specific decks work. I've added a Professor Birch's Observations (as a single) to a few different decks. With the majority of my decks, I see it every couple of games; with one deck I see it most of the time (guesstimate of 80% of games). Adjusting for that, though, my one-of Professor Birch's Observations ends up like crystal_pidgeot's one-of Professor Sycamore; tossed with another card effect (Ultra Ball) because I don't really need it.

The difference likely stems from how our decks operate. As stated, I'm running Professor Birch's Observations "just in case"; it is there to prevent an early game situation of "I must discard three Professor Sycamore to use the fourth.", reduce the odds of multi-Professor Sycamore instances throughout the game, and in general to have a chance of a shuffle-and-draw card that won't mess with my opponent's hand and may actually draw deep into my own deck. Given how other supporting aspects of the game have changed since I last put her through her paces, I probably ought to give Shauna another shot as well. So getting back to the difference, since I'm still relying heavily on Professor Sycamore, I suspect I see more of my deck (for better or worse) in a given match. That specific exception where I usually see Professor Birch's Observations (my one-of draw card) is with BRaH, a stall/mill deck. Being what it is, as long as I have a good game (win or lose), I see most of my deck and all of my opponent's save Prizes and maybe some cards in hand.

Starting with three or four Professor Sycamore and three or four N when designing a deck is not a bad thing; being married to the draw engine when clearly one's deck favors something else definitely is. I know me specifying this sounds weird, but again... I worry about the finer details in a discussion like this. Probably because I tend to be an idiot, get those wrong, and then need someone to spoonfeed me the metagame until I can get it right, afterward.

 

[ReapThaWhirlwind]

First off, you should probably always be running the opposite. 4 N and 3 Professor Discard your hand. This is because N has more diverse potential to act as disruption against the opponent's Turn 1 direct retrieval cards (when you play second). Secondly, I personally find a tech on Professor Birch best places a copy of Professor Discard. Whenever running high volume of Professor Discard, I like to reinforce it with 2 or 3 copies of an additional Wheel Supporter to provide support against discarding excessive copies of precious cards.

So like, 4 N 2 Shauna 3 Professor Discard—or 4 N 1 Professor Birch 3 Professor Discard.

Depending on the deck style you're running, there are even better replacements than a Wheel Supporter (such as Skyla or Teammates). I've elaborating on this excessively as I shell out my entire collection in my blog (link provided below in my banner) as I prepare to quit the game for good due to longstanding corruption and federal neglect on the issue. You can scroll among the contents and see the unique formulas I come up with for my Supporter Arrays. Very rarely will I dial down the number of N, because there's really only one style of deck that it does bad against, and against more aggressive decks (or in Out-Fighter strategies) N's potential to quickly turn into card disadvantage against the opponent is prime.