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Alt. Format Post Rotation: Ice Rider Calyrex VMAX Deck List

Duo

Nessa/Milotic Dream Team
Member
Hello all. It's been a long while for me and am debating picking up a deck after rotation since LGSs in my area don't have locals yet due to the pandemic.

As a bit of a Nessa fan I wanted to play something water (that includes Nessa) that would be at least somewhat decent.

This is something I've been working on that I think could use a few tweaks to reach its max potential.

Pokemon x20

3x Ice Rider Calyrex V (Chilling Reign)
3x Ice Rider Calyrex VMax (Chilling Reign)
2x Suicune V (Evolving Skies)
4x Sobble (Chilling Reign)
4x Drizzile (SwSh Base)
2x Inteleon (SwSh Base)
2x Inteleon (Chilling Reign)

Supporter x12

3x Professor's Research (Shining Fates)
3x Boss's Orders (Rebel Clash)
3x Melony (Chilling Reign)
2x Marnie (SwSh Base)
1x Nessa (Vivid Voltage)

Trainer x18

4x Quick Ball (SwSh Base)
4x Level Ball (Battle Styles)
3x Evolution Incense (SwSh Base)
2x Capacious Bucket (Rebel Clash)
2x Switch (SwSh Base)
2x Air Balloon (SwSh Base)
1x Scoop Up Net (Rebel Clash)

Stadium x2

2x Path to the Peak (Chilling Reign)

Energy x8

8x Water Energy


I'll do the card by card as I always do with my deck lists

3/3 Ice Rider Calyrex Line - Still the deck's primary win condition, however dropped to 3/3 as the need for Ice Rider is not as great with Suicune V in the list as well as the maxed out Inteleon line to search your quick balls and evo incense to basically get you Ice Rider Calyrex incredibly consistently anyway, even at 3/3.

2 Suicune V - I'll be completely honest - I almost want to run this card at 4. Suicune V is a complete monster of a card and honestly the Pokemon I want to start every game. Free draw 1 every turn and an amazing attack with a 220 damage ceiling (280 vs Eternatus VMAX) that can be accelerated in 1 turn with Melony. You will often be able to swing on the first turn of the game for a healthy amount of damage going second with this in the active. The main reason why I abstained is because Sobble has a great going 2nd first turn attack as well. People are probably wondering why I'm doing Suicune V in a deck with Path to the Peak, and that's because I get to choose the timing of when I no longer need or want my ability. I don't have to intentionally hold it to play Crobat V first and draw 1 less card before playing it, or have to play it down and then can't Dedenne GX. And depending on the match up (like the mirror match), I won't even be playing down path to the peak anyway. And when I want to start attacking with Ice Rider VMAX and its no longer in my active, then Path to the Peak doesn't hurt me at all.

4/4/2-2 Inteleon - I'm not sure why I didn't consider this sooner, but this is the best support line up for Ice Rider VMAX. Drizzile and SwSh Base Inteleon searches you every card in your deck. Buckets to search energy, Pokemon search cards, supporters exactly when you need them, Path to the Peak exactly when you need it. Instead of randomly hoping to draw 2 into the outs that you need with the Cinccino engine, just search for them instead. Drizzile and Inteleon can also guarantee that you see quick ball to discard 1 energy to accelerate with Melony while also getting you a basic Pokemon in the process. This deck is monsterously consistent with Inteleon. 4 Drizzile and 4 Level Ball is the equivalent of playing 8 computer search on a stage 1 Pokemon. The Sobble from Chilling Reign also lets you just get all the Sobble in play ASAP, which not only thins your deck but gives you a fantastic going second option.

The SwSh Base Inteleon is also how you survive Decidueye/Altaria match ups. 120 ping 20 to the bench kills 2 Decidueye at once in 2 turns (boss up the bench one with 20 damage, hit it for 120 and ping the previous active for 20 for two 140 damage totals), or you can set up 1 Chilling Reign Inteleon to ping 20 in advance to get the OHKO and string momentum. Against Altaria you just OHKO them every turn and it's basically an auto win.

Additionally, if you are already drawing well or the Drizzile searches are already enough, you can evolve up into the Chilling Reign Inteleon and get everything in range. Chilling Reign Inteleon putting 20-40 damage on something means that you can often just take 2 hit KOs on VMAXes with Ice Rider VMAX's first attack or Suicune V and never have to discard any energy which opens up the ability to play supporters besides Melony or set up back up attackers and get further ahead in momentum. If you can get 2 of them in play, you can just ping a Pokemon V to 80 in 2 turns and deny your opponent from wanting to go VMAX since Lance for 250 would be lethal.

Inteleon is strictly superior to the Cinccino engine I was running before. You get greater concistency, less frail Pokemon on the bench that don't immediately die to one Rapid Strike Urshifu for free, and something that fixes your match up against Decidueye/Altaria while making your already efficient main attackers even more efficient with free bonus damage. An even better upside is the 1 retreat cost. Don't see your primary attacker on turn 1? Attach to Sobble. Next turn, find your Suicune/Ice Rider, attach to that, retreat Sobble to get energy in discard, evolve into Drizzile, search for Melony, Melony onto Suicune/Ice Rider. Draw 2 cards doesn't come close to all of that.


3x Professor's Research - Dropped to 3 for more Melony. I also don't feel the urge for 4 of them when you can't play a supporter going first turn 1 anymore, and Melony is always the ideal supporter going second turn 1 anyway. You still want lots of Research as this deck doesn't have good draw power outside of it.

3x Boss's Orders - I play 3 of whatever gust supporter is around in every deck. I find it to be the most successful ratio. Despite being searchable with Drizzile/Inteleon, I still want 3 because I want to boss 3 times per game, not 2. Sometimes bossing the 1 prize basic support Pokemon before it evolves is the best play.

3x Melony - And you don't need 4. Inteleon based lists can guarantee the Melony when you need it, and extra 20-40 damage for free every turn means you should only ever need to Melony once in a good game since you can claim 2 hit KOs on VMAX and OHKOs on Vs without discarding.

2x Marnie - The way this list runs means I have the ability to play Marnie when I have to since you don't need to Melony more than 2 times in any game. A staple I was sorely missing in my previous list.

1x Nessa - Nessa unironically is good in this list. You can Research hands without regret and are often going to be finding yourself researching away VMAXes and Inteleons and Drizziles in order to find a play. Nessa lets you do that without cornering yourself. Mid to late game your discard pile just becomes a second deck. Searchable so you can get her when you need her.

4x Quick Ball - A staple

4x Level Ball - Searches Sobble and Drizzile, which leads to Drizzile searching anything else that you need. Level Ball is fundamentally a card that says "search for anything in your deck." Every trainer card in this deck searches for every other piece of my deck.

3x Evo Incense - Searches Drizzile, Inteleon, and the VMAX. Despite the fact that Evo Incense searches more cards in your deck than either Quick Ball or Level Ball, the fact of the matter is that you have more time to see your evolutions than you do your basics. You want to get the setup rolling and a full 4 Evo Incense was getting a bit cloggy.

2x Capacious Bucket - Now that this is a pure Melony list with no more Frosmoth and the card is searchable, just 2 is fine now. I want 2 so that I can search it twice throughout games for an energy fix.

2x Switch - Standard retreat option ratios. Don't need more with Inteleon engine.

2x Air Balloon - Everything in this deck is 2 retreat or lower. No matter what active I start I'm fine.

1x Scoop Up Net - A great utility card. It acts as a switch card for any of your Sobble evolutions and offers the ability to replay searches. If you have a Sobble and Drizzile and Inteleon in play, you can scoop up the inteleon and immediately replay the drizzile and inteleon. It gives the deck a massive power play turn to shift tempo in your favor. Additionally, you can swap out Inteleons between shady dealings and quick shooting depending on which one you need more at the time.

2x Path to the Peak - My deck doesn't rely on rule box abilities. This helps me against Shadow Rider Calyrex, another out to Zamazenta V, Glaceon VMAX if people play it, Crobat V, you name it. Only ran at 2 because it's not all that great versus a lot of decks, and it's searchable with Drizzile and Inteleon. Urshifu VMAX doesn't care, you don't actually want to use it against Eternatus VMAX unless they outspeed you since you benefit from their bench size as well and Melony means you'll be attacking sooner than them. Right now, Shadow Rider Calyrex VMAX is the biggest card I'd be worried about, and then Umbreon VMAX once people realize that Gengar VMAX/Umbreon VMAX is a tier 1 deck and have access to it. A lot of the best Pokemon abilities are on 1 prize Pokemon nowadays, so this card is not as good as everyone thinks it is after rotation.

8x Water Energy - Just need around the standard 8 to see energy often enough when you need it.


Considered Cards

Here are some cards I've thought of or seen in lists over in Japan but don't see myself running.

Froslass (1/1 or 2/2) - Froslass I think is simply unneeded, and getting good ratios for this Pokemon is very unideal. If you run a 1/1 line you risk prizing either piece and you likely are not getting it when you actually need it. As far as my deck would be concerned, I'd be Drizzile/Inteleon searching for quick and level balls to set up a Snorunt instead of a Suicune V or Ice Rider V/VMAX which doesn't seem correct. If you run a 2/2 line to see it more often, you're clogging 4 spaces of your deck to an effect you can get off of Melony and you're probably better off just running 4 Melony instead of 3 at that point.

The other part of it is bench real estate. In ideal game states, I have 4 Sobble/Drizzile/Inteleon in play with either Ice Rider VMAX + a back up Ice Rider or Ice Rider VMAX + Suicune V, or if I'm feeling really spicy, double Suicune V. Those are the 6 Pokemon I want in play at all times. Since you always need to keep your momentum with a back up attacker, in order to play down a Froslass you must cut into the number of Sobble. One less Inteleon line means that you are searching 3 less cards, or searching 1 less card and losing 20 free damage every turn just to accelerate 1 energy. This creates an inherent contradiction with this list because the whole point of my deck is that I'm Max Lancing no more than twice in a game. I'm taking constant 2 hit KOs with Ice Rider VMAX's first attack and/or Suicune V with Inteleon pinging damage every turn to fix my math for if my opponent tries to play around me by limiting their bench. Running Froslass means you intend on spamming Max Lance. That's not what my deck wants to do.

The final issue with Froslass, as well as Frosmoth and Cinccino, is the 90 HP. Remember that this is a post rotation list. I'm making some bold guesses as to what the meta will look like, but in a world where Rapid Strike Urshifu is very popular because of Gengar VMAX completely countering Shadow Rider Calyrex, you do not want 120 HP or lower bench sitters. Rapid Strike Urshifu can take a 4 prize turn by rapid flowing Ice Rider VMAX and your Froslass/Frosmoth/Cinccino. You basically lose the game at that point. Inteleon being 150 or 160 HP is incredibly important to not giving free avenues to Rapid Strike Urshifu.

Cheryl (1) - A card that you can only play in Froslass builds or Frosmoth builds. People tend to read Max Lance, not read the fact that the first attack is Zoroark GX but better, and just think to themselves "hey, you'll have 0 energy anyway which means you can play Cheryl!"

Why I don't buy into this statement is because Ice Rider is an agro deck, not a stall or control deck. The deck doesn't gain anything from playing Cheryl, attaching for turn, then passing. Ice Rider is threatening because of the fact that it can just Melony and attach at any point in the game and immediately push for 130 or more damage. Stalling only gives set up style decks like Eternatus and Shadow Rider more time to establish their perfect scenario. So if you're gonna go Cheryl, at least play it with Froslass so you can heal without giving up aggression. However, Cheryl + Froslass still makes you lose hand advantage by not drawing with Marnie/Melony/Research and not searching with Drizzile/Inteleon though, so I still think it's just incorrect.

EDIT: I know about the new Milotic as anti-Marnie tech, and I am thinking about doing an Eevee Heroes Zoroark strategy so I can run Frosmoth, Cinccino, and Milotic via Zoroark's ability. It would look something like 4/4 Zoroark, 2 Frosmoth, 2 Cinccino, 1 Milotic, and Evolution Incense would go to 4 and Level Ball would drop to 2 since Zoroark and Milotic can't be Level Ball'd. I'm not sure it's worth the trade off, but I also don't want to run just a 1/1 Milotic line.

EDIT 2: Massive changes to the list with new knowledge of Suicune V and also realizing that the Inteleon line is absolutely insane and better than Cinccino in many ways.

EDIT 3: Added a list of cards I don't play and why I don't think you play them.
 
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Dark Espeon

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Member
Hi Duo,

Long time no see. Nice list. Consider these modifications:

- 1 Cramorant (would rather like to have a fourth Ice Rider V to start with)
- 1 Nessa (not needed that bad in this deck since you have Melony)
- 1 Capacious Bucket (three is more than sufficient in this deck)

+ 1 Ice Rider V (best starter in this deck)
+ 1 Path to the Peek (great stadium card)
+ 1 Switch or Air Balloon (battle field mobility)

To tell the truth I do not think that you will need Nessa at all. Cinccino is a great partner for Ice Rider Vmax since he draws and can get [W] in the discard pile to activate Melony. my own variant works fine with a pure Cinnccino combined with Melony engine and you could run Pal Pad to retrieve discarded supporters when needed.
 

Duo

Nessa/Milotic Dream Team
Member
Hi Dark Espeon, glad to see you're still around and thanks for the feedback.

I've seen other Ice Rider Calyrex decks not run any Nessa, so I do believe I am technically hindering myself by running the card, but since it's what I want to play in the deck that's a limitation I'm putting on myself and will have to accept the potential of lowering the deck's ceiling by doing so.

About the only thing I think I disagree with is cutting Cramorant. I don't think the deck has a way to function against Decidueye without something like Cramorant since Cinccino and Frosmoth are never getting you there. I don't know how common Decidueye will be in the post rotation metagame (I imagine it will exist to a certain extent since it will also be able to make the new V-UNION cards do 0 damage as they are still Pokemon V), but I was advised to watch out for it. If anything I would cut the Keldeo V for a 4th Ice Rider since at least Path to the Peak turns off Zamazenta V, so Keldeo V is technically extra when Ice Rider VMAX is grabbing OHKOs on Zamazenta V and Zacian V anyway.

So I will basically take all of your advice except replace Cramorant with Keldeo V as the cut. The necessity for bucket drops without Keldeo V since it's the Pokemon that's sucking up the most energy to do the job I want it to do, but Ice Rider VMAX + Path to the Peak does that job more efficiently.

I have also decided on doing 3 Level Ball and 3 Evo Incense instead of 4 and 2. I ran some numbers on draw probability and running a 3/3 split is overall more consistent. This deck absolutely can and wants Ice Rider VMAX out on turn 2 of the game and go super turbo damage. Level Ball helps me find my utilities, but so does Evo Incense while also getting me to my win con faster.
 

Duo

Nessa/Milotic Dream Team
Member
Bumping the thread as I have made some very significant changes after doing some more research, including researching winning Japanese deck lists and adapting them for our post rotation.
 

Dark Espeon

Dark Avatar
Member
Hi Duo,

Nice post-rotation list. Consider these modifications:

Supporter and Stadium:

- 1 Nessa (not needed at all in this deck even though you seem to be attached to it)
- 1 Boss's Orders (two suffice with the Inteleon and Drizzle engine)

+ 1 Marnie (still want to retain a stable draw supporter count and Marnie combos well with Path to the Peak)
+ 1 Path to the Peak (great stadium card that helps to slow down a considerable number of decks)

Trainer:

- 1 Capacious Bucket (one energy search card should suffice in this deck)
- 1 Evolution incense (three are sufficient)

+ 1 Air Balloon, Escape Rope, or Switch (another switch card seems to be needed)
+ 1 Pal Pad (retrieve two supporters of your choice is nice with the Inteleon line)

Another option would be to use Leon instead of Pal Pad. With two Inteleon from Chilling Reign on the bench Leon would enable Ice Rider to achieve an occational ohko.

Hope this provides some assistance.
 
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BWFoster78

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I found this thread when searching for ideas on how to put this deck together (mainly for my 11 year old). Reading your thoughts on the cards was super helpful. Thanks!!!
 

Duo

Nessa/Milotic Dream Team
Member
Been a while since I checked back on this. Glad that my thoughts were helpful.

Of the new advice, I will be dropping 1 evo incense and I'll actually be adding in a Scoop Up net in its place. Scoop Up Net is both a switch card (situational) and allows me to tag out from the search inteleon to the damage inteleon and vice versa. Just one copy because spamming scoop up net doesn't offer anything besides asking to get marnied, and I don't want to brick on the card early. In testing, 1 copy has done very well.

I am attached to the Nessa because I don't think people respect the card, which surprises me because people love cards like rescue stretcher and ordinary rod. Nessa is just super rescue stretcher, and I intentionally run 4/4/4 Inteleon while most people run 4/3/3 to purposefully have extra copies fall into the discard pile and have them be recoverable while copies of search cards and items cannot be. I've watched a lot of ice rider decks burnout of resources because they have to inefficiently research to dig for a copy of Ice rider VMAX when they could've just played a Nessa to recover VMAX and some water and had game from that. I also don't think people respect the fact that Nessa for Drizzile, VMAX, Inteleon, and a water is better than playing Research. 4 playable cards with 3 searches off of Drizzile and Inteleon, so basically that's 7 SEARCHED cards whereas Research draws you 7 random cards. People really need to playtest with her more.

I will never go lower than 3 boss. There are certain cards that I do not want to be searching for all the time, and boss is one of them. I'd take a 3rd boss over a pal pad anyday, because after my inteleons are out and in play, palpad only clogs my deck further by throwing back in cards I can't search for anymore and is generally too slow of a card, just like ordinary rod. If I'm going to palpad for a boss, I'd rather that palpad just be a copy of boss that I drew instead of have to rummage back for again.

I've considered 3 Marnie, but at the end of the day she's still a conditional card. Whether or not Marnie wins or loses you the game is not really in your control, and I don't like being in a position where Marnie is my only supporter and my opponent has 2 cards in hand. With cards like Dedenne GX rotating out, Research helps Ice Rider push ahead in speed vs the competition and reliance on Research is going to increase in general with the loss of Dedenne GX, which again is why I play the Nessa. The hands I will be researching away are hands that I cannot play, which would include all of my evolution pokemon that I need later. The deck already has 8 draw supporters and doesn't need more with the Inteleon engine to grab those supporters on demand.

Bucket stays at 2 and isn't going down. I refuse to brick on lack of energy, ever. Energy is the last thing I cut in every list. It is your literal life blood and win condition in 99% of decks.

Path to the Peak is a card I'm still debating. I still think 3 copies is too many. It's the best card and the worst card in my deck depending on match up, and unless you see it on your first turn, it's pretty much a pointless card since most of the abilities you're trying to shut out are things like Zacian V, Ray VMAX, and Shadow Rider VMAX. As soon as they get those abilities once or twice to get set up, Path comes in too late to matter. 3 increases the odds of seeing it early, but then also clogs my hand with unplayable cards in bad match ups, and if I fail to see it turn 1 that's more dead draws in the deck. It reminds me a lot of when Talonflame was being used as a starter due to its ability and being played at 4 copies - it's completely hit or miss. It's also a "defensive" card, which means the opponent has time to just play down a stadium of their own and not even care about it, so it doesn't even work every time you want it. In playtesting I've been happy with 2, because Ice Rider also doesn't need Path to win against previously mentioned decks. I'm even thinking about cutting it altogether because it's the most predictable card in every Ice Rider list. People are digging for their stadiums before you even get to Path to the Peak and holding them intentionally.

Just figured I'd explain my thoughts on the cards based on both my own playtesting and what I've seen in live duels.
 
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Dark Espeon

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Member
Hi Duo,

Sounds fine. The only thing I am not sure of is the need of a third Boss's Orders and Nessa. The former comes down to play-style and the latter seems to be a personal preference but I do understand your reasons for Nessa but I personally prefer a 1-off Leon over the tech 1-off Nessa. Guess another person is waiting for the promo boxes to be released this month ;).
 

Duo

Nessa/Milotic Dream Team
Member
Leon is a cool tech for sure that I respect, but I make up for no Leon by having a full 2/2 of shady dealings & quick shooting Inteleons while most lists I see run 2 shading dealings Inteleon & just 1 quick shooting. Having the option to layer 40 damage instead of 20 every turn is pretty massive albeit slower to get to than dropping down the Leon.

I think I would like the Leon more if Tag Teams were not rotating out as something you could drop on turn 2 for a 280 damage Tag Team 3 prize KO swing.
 

Dark Espeon

Dark Avatar
Member
Leon is a cool tech for sure that I respect, but I make up for no Leon by having a full 2/2 of shady dealings & quick shooting Inteleons while most lists I see run 2 shading dealings Inteleon & just 1 quick shooting. Having the option to layer 40 damage instead of 20 every turn is pretty massive albeit slower to get to than dropping down the Leon.

I think I would like the Leon more if Tag Teams were not rotating out as something you could drop on turn 2 for a 280 damage Tag Team 3 prize KO swing.
Hi Duo,

There is not necessary a choice to be made between Quick Shooter and Leon. In fact I would like to combine to Quick Shooter with Leon to enable Ice Rider to hit for a solid 320 damage. Personally I run a list similar to this but I only use one Shady Dealing Inteleon and two Quick Shooter Inteleon. 320 is a solid number that can take down a considerable number of Pokémon Vmax in one hit. It is a more offensive tech compared to Nessa.
 

Duo

Nessa/Milotic Dream Team
Member
That's a fair point. I do categorize myself as an advantage player in most scenarios. I see the ability to go +7 (or +8 if double shady dealings inteleon) off of Nessa and unlimiting myself to technically +1 more copies of every Pokemon in my deck as invaluable, especially against single prize deck/Decidueye match ups. It helps me play around variance that I can't control, such as prizing 2 of my VMAXes or 2 of my Drizziles or drawing hands of only evolution Pokemon and having to maximize what I have access to.

To put another way, I hate losing to myself. It's impossible to ever fully control variance in card games, of course, but I like doing as much as I can to minimize.
 

Dark Espeon

Dark Avatar
Member
Hi Duo,

Faor point on the value of additional Inteleon versus Decidueye but in most other matches there will be no need for additional Pokémon since in Vmax matches you will need no more than two Vmax. The additional damage from Double Shooter that Nessa potentially enables is rather slow since you need to go from Sooble to Inteleon to benefit from it. Decidueye, on the other hand, is a match up in which Nessa may pay off since in that match you are limited to your Inteleon line to fight and you may need more copies of them to do so. By contrast, Leon is a fast 30 damage on a specific point of time when you need it.
 

Duo

Nessa/Milotic Dream Team
Member
When I say extra copies I don't necessarily mean I feel the need to actually play 4 VMAXes or 5 Inteleons in a game, but like the previous example of if I prized 2 of my VMAXes and I only have 1 copy to work with, Nessa lets me grab it back. Or if I simply don't see the copies when I need them but I do see Nessa. We run a 3/3 line of Ice Rider not because we actually will play all 3 but just so we can actually see it right? Nessa grants me extra access to all of my Pokemon (and energy) as a single deck slot investment.

If I open with 2 drizzile in my opening hand and I have to discard them for a research, that cuts me off of 2 Inteleon lines and I'm going to want them back with Nessa.

Those are "+1 copy" situations I'm talking about. When I'm going Nessa for Inteleon I'm not really thinking about that in terms of an Inteleon got KO'd and now I'm grabbing them back and then evolving them back up over 2 turns. I'm using it in terms of I can quick ball away an Inteleon to get a Sobble, Level ball for a Drizzile then Drizzile search for a Nessa to recover Inteleon + 3 more things, if that timing is appropriate and I don't have Inteleon access through other means at the time.

I think the Leon is still fine. It serves a similar purpose to Boss in that you play a supporter to take a crucial kill at a crucial timing. Where the Leon sort of falls short for me personally is that it's still contingent on getting double quick shooting inteleon in play, which can only happen earliest turn 3 of the game. If a game is going well for Ice Rider, you will have a VMAX ready to attack by turn 2, then on turn 3 if they retreated, you boss back up your target and take the KO. Or if your opponent isn't setting up properly, then they also wouldn't be leaving their VMAX in the active, so you would be forced to boss + leon on turn 3 in order to pull up the right target and get the OHKO on it, which as we all know you can't do that. Game branches out a ton from there, but where I see Leon would come in most useful is for getting a revenge OHKO, like your opponent is out pacing so you set yourself up to be ready to take an immediate counter OHKO, and for any match up that's maybe playing Cheryl or other healing sources.

It's a cool card that I'm keeping in the back of my mind. It might become more of a necessity if Ray VMAX becomes a prominent tier 1 deck with high representation and the ability to OHKO becomes more of a requirement to go toe to toe with Ray VMAX.
 

Dark Espeon

Dark Avatar
Member
When I say extra copies I don't necessarily mean I feel the need to actually play 4 VMAXes or 5 Inteleons in a game, but like the previous example of if I prized 2 of my VMAXes and I only have 1 copy to work with, Nessa lets me grab it back. Or if I simply don't see the copies when I need them but I do see Nessa. We run a 3/3 line of Ice Rider not because we actually will play all 3 but just so we can actually see it right? Nessa grants me extra access to all of my Pokemon (and energy) as a single deck slot investment.

If I open with 2 drizzile in my opening hand and I have to discard them for a research, that cuts me off of 2 Inteleon lines and I'm going to want them back with Nessa.

Those are "+1 copy" situations I'm talking about. When I'm going Nessa for Inteleon I'm not really thinking about that in terms of an Inteleon got KO'd and now I'm grabbing them back and then evolving them back up over 2 turns. I'm using it in terms of I can quick ball away an Inteleon to get a Sobble, Level ball for a Drizzile then Drizzile search for a Nessa to recover Inteleon + 3 more things, if that timing is appropriate and I don't have Inteleon access through other means at the time.

I think the Leon is still fine. It serves a similar purpose to Boss in that you play a supporter to take a crucial kill at a crucial timing. Where the Leon sort of falls short for me personally is that it's still contingent on getting double quick shooting inteleon in play, which can only happen earliest turn 3 of the game. If a game is going well for Ice Rider, you will have a VMAX ready to attack by turn 2, then on turn 3 if they retreated, you boss back up your target and take the KO. Or if your opponent isn't setting up properly, then they also wouldn't be leaving their VMAX in the active, so you would be forced to boss + leon on turn 3 in order to pull up the right target and get the OHKO on it, which as we all know you can't do that. Game branches out a ton from there, but where I see Leon would come in most useful is for getting a revenge OHKO, like your opponent is out pacing so you set yourself up to be ready to take an immediate counter OHKO, and for any match up that's maybe playing Cheryl or other healing sources.

It's a cool card that I'm keeping in the back of my mind. It might become more of a necessity if Ray VMAX becomes a prominent tier 1 deck with high representation and the ability to OHKO becomes more of a requirement to go toe to toe with Ray VMAX.
Hi Duo,

Get what you want to say. I never needed to retrieve Pokémon in either my Ice Rider build or my Rapid Strike Urshifu build. The situation that two thirds of your main attacker are prized is possible but not that likely at all. In fact the only cards that I sometimes wanted back are Passimian and Raihan in my Rapid Strike Urshifu build and that occured rather seldom - other than wanting a second Raihan in thirthy percent of my test matches.

I would be less concerned about Rapid Strike Rayquaza at the moment since that deck is considerably slower than yours. What I had in mind when suggesting Leon was Rapid Strike Urshifu and Shadow Rider. The latter reaches ohko potential faster and more consistent that Rapid Strike Rayquaza. I do understand that you see the potential benefit of Leon and there is no need to further explain it.

On a side note: How did the 4-4-4 line work out for you? I run a 4-4-3 line or a 4-3-3 line since most of the time two to three Inteleon line benech slots suffice and the slightly reduced evolution line also reduced the odds that they get in my way early game when I potentially want to research. In addition one of my sobbles is often knocked out early which reduced the need for a full evolution line for me.

Maybe you want to test out these modifications regarless of whether you want to switch Nessa out for Leon:

- 1 Switch
+1 Escape Rope

Escape Rope is a more disruptive switch and you can afford to be a little techy in the trainer section with the Inteleon line.

- 1 Inteleon S1W
+ 1 Suicune V or Ice Rider V

One copy of Inteleon S1W worked out more than fine for me provided that you have four Drizzile and one Scoop Up Net anyway. The tenth Basic Pokémon worked real well for me.

Personally I also like to run a third stadium over the third Boss's Orders but I understand where you are coming from with the argument in favor of the third Boss's orders over the third stadium card. The only thing you block with Path to the Peak in the predicted meta is Shadow Rider Vmax, Crobat V (much less common than it used to be), Zacian V (benefits a lot from the Inteleon package and Raihan too), Rapid Rayquaza Vmax, Glaceon Vmax, Zamazenta, Duraludon Vmax, and Krickertune V in order of predicted relevance.
 

Duo

Nessa/Milotic Dream Team
Member
I think the 4/4/4 line works really well, but as you probably have noticed from my choice of going with Nessa, I am more concerned about prizing than perhaps most other people are. I have considered swinging the ratios to 3 quick shooting 1 shady dealings inteleon, but that makes things more restricted for me, and 60 damage counters in one turn doesn't help my math in any way (250 + 60 = 310 which is exactly only Victini VMAX which dies to weakness anyway). I like having the hard 2nd copy and not relying on the scoop up net to get the second search because sometimes I need energy or a supporter more than I need 20 damage. The second search would also allow me to do something like Inteleon (with another Inteleon already in play), search for the scoop up net & evo incense, scoop up shady dealings inteleon, incense for quick shooting inteleon, play down quick shooting inteleon, and now I have a shady dealings inteleon in hand for next turn to search 2 trainers, if the board state is correct. I don't always immediately play my inteleons. Sometimes it's best to hold one for the follow up turn, and to make people incentivized to marnie you instead of boss you. I'm really happy with 2 copies.

In tournament play I have prized 3 Ralts more times than I can count on one hand, and I've mulliganed so many times in a handful of games that my opponent has started with a 13 card hand despite having 11 basics in the deck. The rare situations that come up have come up often enough to make me lose top 16/top 8 slots strictly to prizing and not to anything else. In casual play it's not so relevant, but in tournament play where every game counts and I want maximum consistency, that's why I run the "excessive" cards like 4 Inteleon + Nessa. I am very aggressive with my quick balls and researches because you have to be in a deck that's looking to OHKO a Pokemon V on turn 2.

I've thought about escape rope, but I generally don't like cards that involve opponent choice. And sometimes I want to switch without changing the active because I want to KO the current active. I prefer full predictability with my cards, but I have seen the escape rope used in decks in general.
 
Last edited:

Serperior

464/500
Advanced Member
Member
Escape Rope is something I pause on because you can reset an Urshifu's Gale Thrust for free without forcing them to have a Switch option.
 
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Dark Espeon

Dark Avatar
Member
I think the 4/4/4 line works really well, but as you probably have noticed from my choice of going with Nessa, I am more concerned about prizing than perhaps most other people are. I have considered swinging the ratios to 3 quick shooting 1 shady dealings inteleon, but that makes things more restricted for me, and 60 damage counters in one turn doesn't help my math in any way (250 + 60 = 310 which is exactly only Victini VMAX which dies to weakness anyway). I like having the hard 2nd copy and not relying on the scoop up net to get the second search because sometimes I need energy or a supporter more than I need 20 damage. The second search would also allow me to do something like Inteleon (with another Inteleon already in play), search for the scoop up net & evo incense, scoop up shady dealings inteleon, incense for quick shooting inteleon, play down quick shooting inteleon, and now I have a shady dealings inteleon in hand for next turn to search 2 trainers, if the board state is correct. I don't always immediately play my inteleons. Sometimes it's best to hold one for the follow up turn, and to make people incentivized to marnie you instead of boss you. I'm really happy with 2 copies.

In tournament play I have prized 3 Ralts more times than I can count on one hand, and I've mulliganed so many times in a handful of games that my opponent has started with a 13 card hand despite having 11 basics in the deck. The rare situations that come up have come up often enough to make me lose top 16/top 8 slots strictly to prizing and not to anything else. In casual play it's not so relevant, but in tournament play where every game counts and I want maximum consistency, that's why I run the "excessive" cards like 4 Inteleon + Nessa. I am very aggressive with my quick balls and researches because you have to be in a deck that's looking to OHKO a Pokemon V on turn 2.

I've thought about escape rope, but I generally don't like cards that involve opponent choice. And sometimes I want to switch without changing the active because I want to KO the current active. I prefer full predictability with my cards, but I have seen the escape rope used in decks in general.
Hi Duo,

Solid argument. Personally I love a 4-4-3 line or a 4-3-3 line since it allows me to be more aggressive with Prof. Research without regrets. It also reduces the odds that you get multiple evolution cards in your opening hand. The tech Scoop Up Net serves as an insurance by reusing one of the Inteleon. But I tested Rapid Strike Urshifu ways more than I tested my Ice Rider Vmax list. The argument about cards being prized is solid. that is also the main reason I am still considering a second tech Raihan in my Rapid Strike Urshifu list to maintain momentum.

The main reason for Escape Rope is to get another target in the active slot if you can knock out the current active Pokémon over two turns using Quick Shooting Inteleon.
 

bumankumar3

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I've seen other Ice Rider Calyrex decks not run any Nessa, so I do believe I am technically hindering myself by running the card, but since it's what I want to play in the deck that's a limitation I'm putting on myself and will have to accept the potential of lowering the deck's ceiling by doing so.
 
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