Discussion Pidgeot-EX Deck Concept

I see how this can work but how are you finding the space while running things like Octillery? I assume you don't run Magearna but the problem is EVERYONE is running damage scaling decks so all they do is sit there and build a giant Yveltal-EX, M Mewtwo-EX, M Gardevoir-EX, Darkrai-EX or some other attacker that scales, Lysandre out your M Pidgeot-EX and then kill it. You simply can't sit there and what, like I suggested for the article and need to apply some kind of pressure and force them to hit you early. This is too huge a factor to overlook considering how popular this play style is. If this play style didn't boom then sure but with Lysandre and Silent Lab, they can play around both Bursting Balloon and Pyukumuku. I'm not saying this can't work but it's eight cards in the deck that doesn't let Pidgeot do what it wants when all you can do is Mach Cyclone them turn two or if you have another attacker, then just hit it with something like a Lugia-EX.
 
M Pidgeot EX is not the greatest card in general. 130 isn't anywhere near enough damage to justify all the effort you're putting into walling.
 
M Pidgeot EX is not the greatest card in general. 130 isn't anywhere near enough damage to justify all the effort you're putting into walling.

130 is a very good number and the effect is really good. Its what wins me the Turbo Dark matchup.
 
130 is a very good number and the effect is really good. Its what wins me the Turbo Dark matchup.

And if you look more broadly at the cards coming out + stuff since Steam Siege (maybe earlier, but Volcanion EX is about where I start remembering 130 becoming common), it is also a *very* common damage number overall.

Not trying to speak for you here Crystal Pidgeot, but I don't like the idea that 130 is a bad number. 130 2 shots literally anything in the game. That isn't the issue. Right now, there are a lot of damage scaling decks making that 130 seem outclassed which is exactly what Crystal Pidgeot is talking about. The Pidgeot line on its own is really good and 130 hurts a lot. The issue is that it doesn't have the same scaling help that most of the other popular top decks have and doesn't have enough hit points to survive a huge scaled shot and return the favor with its mirror attack.

This is actually one of the things I don't like about Pokemon's general approach to meta building. While I like the fact that you kind of "know what you are getting" from the various types, it also seems like the exact same types constantly own "BDIF" status with the other types having their "one shining moment" every now and again. TBH, it is the whole reason why even though I hate playing against Night March / Vespiquen style decks, I am absolutely thrilled that they exist. They *feel* like outside the box concepts that work really well.

Back to the subject at hand though. That's the whole reason I am interested in the Pidgeot discussion as a whole. I would love it if someone makes a break through with the deck. I am not sure it is doable with the current cards available, but there is still always that hope that something someone says will trigger something awesome.

Sorry for the book :)
 
I keep notes on every game I play with Pidgeot-EX and the thing I feel it needs now is a bit of speed but I want to try to build it in a way to where Pidgeot can still do what it wants but not give up anything that could hurt it but I need to find things to give up. I think the biggest problem is finding supporters that are resource friendly. People keep telling me to add more Sycamore to the deck but I can't justify discarding 2+ Max Potions for maybe a chance to get a card I need.
 
I keep notes on every game I play with Pidgeot-EX and the thing I feel it needs now is a bit of speed but I want to try to build it in a way to where Pidgeot can still do what it wants but not give up anything that could hurt it but I need to find things to give up. I think the biggest problem is finding supporters that are resource friendly. People keep telling me to add more Sycamore to the deck but I can't justify discarding 2+ Max Potions for maybe a chance to get a card I need.

Probably a dumb question, but are you using Lillie and if so, how many? Have you looked at the post 21Times has up about the number of cards per use with it? Granted, he does have the caveat that he uses sycamore more frequently after T1, but that still might be a good card. Then again, I don't know how fast you burn cards out of your hand either and if you aren't burning them that fast, it goes from a possibly good card to an absolutely awful card pretty quick.
 
Probably a dumb question, but are you using Lillie and if so, how many? Have you looked at the post 21Times has up about the number of cards per use with it? Granted, he does have the caveat that he uses sycamore more frequently after T1, but that still might be a good card. Then again, I don't know how fast you burn cards out of your hand either and if you aren't burning them that fast, it goes from a possibly good card to an absolutely awful card pretty quick.

I'm looking at it but I feel it clashes too much with Octillery. The main thing is my hand tends to be large so I'll be playing it for about one or two cards, which would be a waste. I want to keep things like Max Potion and Puzzle of Time around. I don't think she will have a place to Sun and Moon on really because depending on the rotations, N and Sycamore will still be around, which sucks.
 
I'm looking at it but I feel it clashes too much with Octillery. The main thing is my hand tends to be large so I'll be playing it for about one or two cards, which would be a waste. I want to keep things like Max Potion and Puzzle of Time around. I don't think she will have a place to Sun and Moon on really because depending on the rotations, N and Sycamore will still be around, which sucks.

Yeah, if you maintain large hands, Lillie is a complete waste. Especially with an Octillery line like you are saying. Wait, if you have Octillery and have good draw support, why would you need more Sycamores? Do you run into dead hands frequently or something? It seems like if you could get away with not needing the Sycamores that you might actually be better off without them. If you don't need to cycle your deck for it to be effective, I don't know why adding Sycamores or more draw support in general would be an ideal solution. Like at all.
 
Yeah, if you maintain large hands, Lillie is a complete waste. Especially with an Octillery line like you are saying. Wait, if you have Octillery and have good draw support, why would you need more Sycamores? Do you run into dead hands frequently or something? It seems like if you could get away with not needing the Sycamores that you might actually be better off without them. If you don't need to cycle your deck for it to be effective, I don't know why adding Sycamores or more draw support in general would be an ideal solution. Like at all.

It can brick from time to time so I'm looking for a way to balance speed with resource management. Pidgeot needs cards that can find things easily.
 
I see how this can work but how are you finding the space while running things like Octillery? I assume you don't run Magearna but the problem is EVERYONE is running damage scaling decks so all they do is sit there and build a giant Yveltal-EX, M Mewtwo-EX, M Gardevoir-EX, Darkrai-EX or some other attacker that scales, Lysandre out your M Pidgeot-EX and then kill it. You simply can't sit there and what, like I suggested for the article and need to apply some kind of pressure and force them to hit you early. This is too huge a factor to overlook considering how popular this play style is. If this play style didn't boom then sure but with Lysandre and Silent Lab, they can play around both Bursting Balloon and Pyukumuku. I'm not saying this can't work but it's eight cards in the deck that doesn't let Pidgeot do what it wants when all you can do is Mach Cyclone them turn two or if you have another attacker, then just hit it with something like a Lugia-EX.

I would not be running {Abyssal Hand} Octillery here. It's not easily resourced, and the flow of the cards can be better reinforced by more intelligible resourcing. This means consistency of offensive/defensive resources, and more actual Supporter cards opposed to Supporter-esque cards. Consecutive plays on Judge can be brutal. You never know when your opponent can bounce back from it. And as the opponent's deck thins out, it's more likely that content allowing them to do this pops up for them when the wheel comes around. Keep in mind that N can quickly double as Judge while the opponent begins to pick up Prizes. Running then back-to-back in high volume alongside Professor Sycamore/Delinquent/and maybe a tech on Ninja Boy is sure to be far more proficient than any desperate draw you try to put together with Octillery here.

Octillery can be a fish out of water. I've said it before in my blog, and the principal is very true. The mainstream might be blind, but I do all my decks from scratch, and I use aspects like mathematical proportion, and dynamic analytics (based on the effects of single cards, card pairs, and their interactivity together) to develop my deck structures and draw strategies. By putting together Supporter cards with lots of synergy together, you can create a draw strategy so proficient, cards like {Abyssal Hand} Octillery will be totally outsourced.

You know where that card is best—is in its natural habitat (Water decks). The primary reason for this being Dive Ball makes it easy to resource, and enables you to run smaller 2-2 lines to salvage crucial space for other important content. Otherwise, it can just get in the way, or forces you to waste crucial resources to put it together right away and secure the desperate draw. Here, I would say it has no place, and is just adulterating the deck structure. So it wouldn't be apart of the deck structure to begin with.
 
I would not be running {Abyssal Hand} Octillery here. It's not easily resourced, and the flow of the cards can be better reinforced by more intelligible resourcing. This means consistency of offensive/defensive resources, and more actual Supporter cards opposed to Supporter-esque cards. Consecutive plays on Judge can be brutal. You never know when your opponent can bounce back from it. And as the opponent's deck thins out, it's more likely that content allowing them to do this pops up for them when the wheel comes around. Keep in mind that N can quickly double as Judge while the opponent begins to pick up Prizes. Running then back-to-back in high volume alongside Professor Sycamore/Delinquent/and maybe a tech on Ninja Boy is sure to be far more proficient than any desperate draw you try to put together with Octillery here.


The thing about Pidgeot is it requires very specific cards to work. You drop a Shaymin and then what? Octillery lets Pidgeot maintain constant draw throughout the deck and because it needs cards like Max Potion and Shrine of Memories, you can't afford to lose them because you needed to play a more standard draw engine. The thing I learned with my months of playing Pidgeot is you need to do right by it first before you can worry about techs and because of this, it makes Pidgeot a much slower deck. You can't play Trainers' Mail, you need Skyla. You can't play Professor Sycamore ( I mean, you can) because you risk discarding your Max Potions or other cards that help Pidgeot's staying power. If you run Judge in heavy counts and/or Delinquent, you're not running something like Puzzle of Time, which greatly benefits Pidgeot greatly since you can recycle core cards.

Octillery is just the glue that holds the deck together. If you take early leads, and you will if you draw well, a N when you have one or two Prize cards left means you need to top deck what you need and not having your Max Potions and Energy when you need them. This is why I believe other Pidgeot players lose and it because they choose to use Shaymin over Octillery. Its up to players, sure but I personally believe Octillery is the stronger play because Pidgeot can afford to be slower, within reason of course.

Octillery can be a fish out of water. I've said it before in my blog, and the principal is very true. The mainstream might be blind, but I do all my decks from scratch, and I use aspects like mathematical proportion, and dynamic analytics (based on the effects of single cards, card pairs, and their interactivity together) to develop my deck structures and draw strategies. By putting together Supporter cards with lots of synergy together, you can create a draw strategy so proficient, cards like {Abyssal Hand} Octillery will be totally outsourced

Well, sure but there wasn't ever a time where Octillery cost me a game. The only time it did was when my opponent managed to KO them all but at the end of they day, they give up a single Prize, now two. If you're playing a turbo deck, then sure, you want to use Shaymin but this doesn't work well with Pidgeot because it is a much slower Pokemon. No other Pokemon has a move like Mirror Move so you can afford to do things differently. I would love to hear what decks you tested it with and what they looked like.

As for Supporters... Most just don't work with Pidgeot. You can spam Sycamore with something like Turbo Dark, because they don't need most things at that time. Losing two or three Max Potions or Puzzles to a Sycamore is just painful or having to ditch Shrine of Memories. Skyla is your best bet at getting what you need (which is why I'm eager to test with Mallow) but it's too slow compared to the raw draw power Sycamore gives. To off set this, I play with Birch, which has the best synergy with Pidgeot. Sure the tails flips suck from time to time but Octillery offsets this. You need to think differently when playing Pidgeot because it isn't Mega Rayquaza.

You know where that card is best—is in its natural habitat (Water decks). The primary reason for this being Dive Ball makes it easy to resource, and enables you to run smaller 2-2 lines to salvage crucial space for other important content. Otherwise, it can just get in the way, or forces you to waste crucial resources to put it together right away and secure the desperate draw. Here, I would say it has no place, and is just adulterating the deck structure. So it wouldn't be apart of the deck structure to begin with.

Sure, it does work better there since their entire Pokemon line are water types. One ball can grab them all but just like its more powerful in water decks, Shaymin is weak in Pidgeot because you can't play a lot of your cards when you draw into it. You can't just dump Max Potions or play all of your Stadiums. You can't just drop your Puzzles to burn cards for Shaymin and if you have to drop Spirit Links just to draw more with Shaymin, then you already lost. Octillery just works well with a slower deck.

Pidgeot is just a super unique card. If it didn't have Mirror Move and had an attack that did 300 damage for one energy, then sure. Sycamore away, since you want that free kill but Pidgeot isn't a card like that and trying to make it into such a card is the reason people say it sucks. They don't want to play a skillful deck, they want to play Turbo Dark. Its easy to play, highly rewarding and fast. Pidgeot is the exact opposite of that. You play to a card strengths.
 
The main problem I see is that Volcanion, Turbo Dark, Decidueye variants, M Rayquaza, Vespiquen, Yveltal/Garb, M Mewtwo, Rainbow Road, Gyarados, Solgaleo variants, Zygarde EX, Primarina GX, and Raikou variants (did I miss anything relevant?) can all one shot you (or get around Mirror Move in some other way) while you two shot them. I don't think Pidgeot can be competitively viable until rotation and most likely after it as well because of that.
 
The main problem I see is that Volcanion, Turbo Dark, Decidueye variants, M Rayquaza, Vespiquen, Yveltal/Garb, M Mewtwo, Rainbow Road, Gyarados, Solgaleo variants, Zygarde EX, Primarina GX, and Raikou variants (did I miss anything relevant?) can all one shot you (or get around Mirror Move in some other way) while you two shot them. I don't think Pidgeot can be competitively viable until rotation and most likely after it as well because of that.

That same thing is true for all other deck but Pidgeot has no real issues against decks that use EXP Share. Zygarde isn't a issue either.
 
Why is Darkrai a good matchup?

All Cells Burn+2 Strong Energy OHKOs a M Pidgeot, although it's not very relevant.
 
M Pidgeot EX is not the greatest card in general. 130 isn't anywhere near enough damage to justify all the effort you're putting into walling.

I'm going to tackle this comment from a different angle, probably because on its surface, it is 100% accurate. Of course, M Pidgeot-EX isn't the greatest card in general, but few cards are. ;) If this post comes across as me telling everyone what they already knew, then I'm sorry. >_< This is one part me sharing what I think I know, one part me testing my own understanding by putting it out there for others to refute.

It is important once not fall prey to binary thinking, where all cards must be "good" or "bad"; a lot can be done with cards that aren't quite as competitive as the bulk of the metagame, but because of that fact, no one spends much time or effort preparing for them.

I also thought M Pidgeot-EX wasn't the focus; Pidgeot-EX is. "Mirror Move" is fantastic in a format about near-OHKOs. To the point where I just had to ask myself "Should I be including a Pidgeot-EX alongside Tauros-GX in my Ninja Boy sporting decks? While I realize, almost as quickly, the answer is "No, because Tauros-GX has a better chance of scoring a OHKO in retaliation thanks to its first and third attacks, while its second gives it a solid fallback if the opponent isn't doing any damage." it was a question I needed to ask myself. ;)

Okay, third and final tidbit: 130 for [CCC] on the Mega Evolution of a Basic Pokémon-EX which you are already running? "Adequate" or "Solid" seem fair descriptors; M Pidgeot-EX is there for when your opponent isn't hitting Pidgeot-EX hard enough, or for after you're out of Max Potion, at least if I understand the deck correctly (I've faced it, but I am a few cards shy of being able to run it myself). 130 seems to be the new 2HKO magic number, as enough Pokémon-GX clock in at 250 HP. Yes, already said by others, but this is one even I can confirm.
 
Why is Darkrai a good matchup?

All Cells Burn+2 Strong Energy OHKOs a M Pidgeot, although it's not very relevant.

They can never keep Energy in play. The way Mach Cyclone works is when you would get the knockout, you force it back to the Bench. Since the Pokemon gets knocked out on the Bench, EXP Share never activates, meaning they lose all the energy, meaning they can never get the OHKOs. You have no idea how effective this is.

For Zygarde, things like E hammer and such help a lot.

I'm going to tackle this comment from a different angle, probably because on its surface, it is 100% accurate. Of course, M Pidgeot-EX isn't the greatest card in general, but few cards are. ;) If this post comes across as me telling everyone what they already knew, then I'm sorry. >_< This is one part me sharing what I think I know, one part me testing my own understanding by putting it out there for others to refute.

It is important once not fall prey to binary thinking, where all cards must be "good" or "bad"; a lot can be done with cards that aren't quite as competitive as the bulk of the metagame, but because of that fact, no one spends much time or effort preparing for them.

I also thought M Pidgeot-EX wasn't the focus; Pidgeot-EX is. "Mirror Move" is fantastic in a format about near-OHKOs. To the point where I just had to ask myself "Should I be including a Pidgeot-EX alongside Tauros-GX in my Ninja Boy sporting decks? While I realize, almost as quickly, the answer is "No, because Tauros-GX has a better chance of scoring a OHKO in retaliation thanks to its first and third attacks, while its second gives it a solid fallback if the opponent isn't doing any damage." it was a question I needed to ask myself. ;)

Okay, third and final tidbit: 130 for [CCC] on the Mega Evolution of a Basic Pokémon-EX which you are already running? "Adequate" or "Solid" seem fair descriptors; M Pidgeot-EX is there for when your opponent isn't hitting Pidgeot-EX hard enough, or for after you're out of Max Potion, at least if I understand the deck correctly (I've faced it, but I am a few cards shy of being able to run it myself). 130 seems to be the new 2HKO magic number, as enough Pokémon-GX clock in at 250 HP. Yes, already said by others, but this is one even I can confirm.

This is pretty much it. For those who don't know this about me, I don't play cards because they are good or bad, I play them because I like them and after waiting 13 years for Pidgeot EX, you best believe I'm going to play it. I never made a claim that it was a good card but I do believe it does "break" the meta in a way and any card that can make an opponent do something they don't want to is always worth looking into.

A lot of people just look at the 130 damage and get turned off to it because it isn't Emerald Break but 130 KOs every 130 HP Basic without a FFB and 2HKOs every card in the format, which is good, considering it can attack for a DCE and a Mega Turbo. Mach Cyclone can cheese decks that use EXP Share, which are huge right now and tanking a hit with a massive 220 HP means you can fire back a 210 damage Mirror Move when the opponent least expect it.

Sure Pidgeot isn't the best card but it warps the format because of what it can do.
 
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The thing about Pidgeot is it requires very specific cards to work. You drop a Shaymin and then what? Octillery lets Pidgeot maintain constant draw throughout the deck and because it needs cards like Max Potion and Shrine of Memories, you can't afford to lose them because you needed to play a more standard draw engine.
If you run Judge in heavy counts and/or Delinquent, you're not running something like Puzzle of Time, which greatly benefits Pidgeot greatly since you can recycle core cards.

Every card requires specific cards to "work", that is the very nature of synergy itself, which is what you must truly be referring to when you say that. Now, one think I hope you'll learn when it comes to this, is to not be greedy when it comes to synergy. Sometimes, it can be really hard to pick and choose between cards and their effects, wanting to reserve the potential of all of them, accompanied by the fact that each of their best potential is only had when the suite surrounding them is especially tailored to support them specifically. Trying to throw too many cards into the mix adulterates this proficiency, and ultimately detracts from their greatest potential.

With that said, if I may quote a famous Magic card, "It takes great sacrifice to make it to the top." This principal is very relevant here. Intelligible deck structuring can take great sacrifice, and you will have to pick and choose between very specific cards and/or suites if you truly wish to take into any alpha potential at all. Learning to be resolute, and let go of your sentimentality, is the key to mastering this technique. You might think that some cards are essential to the deck, but their potential is really general, offered by many other cards, which potentially would boast an even greater resource strategy for your deck.

This is not really a simple technique to adapt. You have to always start from scratch, analyze the synergy between specific cards, and familiarize yourself with various suites consisting of like-effect cards (or contrast pairs) that boost the effectiveness of one another. From this, you can more intelligibly pair of specific cards like Puzzle of Time with Supporters that specifically benefit it (such as Professor Juniper/Misty's Determination), without including cards that detract from its potential (such a Judge).

Many times over, you should be able to discern that there is a prominent need for your deck above all else, based on the specific strategy you're entertaining, and what challenging aspects it faces that must be compensated for and reinforced against. Considering this here, I would discern the most prominent aspect for the Pidgeot deck is disruption, so the inclusion of Judge has a far higher priority than Puzzle of Time. Puzzle of Time itself shouldn't even be needed if a more intelligible draw strategy is implemented anyways. You should be able to easily conserve core card instead of waste them, so there's no need to just hopefully get a chance at recycling just 2 of them.

Afterall, that is a play you'll only be lucky to make once a game—and just the same as Octillery—takes up 4 spots in your deck. That's a heavy amount of space to waste. Can you image how much better 2 copies of Trainers' Mail and 2 copies of Misty's Determination or Teammates would be? Their potential is more stand-alone, their range is greater, and their nature is far more conservative as well. I personally can't think of any reason why this deck would need Puzzle of Time. What was its best potential for you if you don't mind me asking?


Octillery is just the glue that holds the deck together. Its up to players, sure but I personally believe Octillery is the stronger play because Pidgeot can afford to be slower, within reason of course.

This definitely falls in line with much of the aforementioned details. You might think it's some great resource, but consider the final paragraph of my last statement. Octillery takes up 4 spots in your deck, provokes you to a potentially heavy investment with a slow and closed-ranged profit margin. Those 4 spots can be brutally out-sourced by copies of other resourcing cards with more stand-alone potential, greater ranges of reach, and more conservative natures to them.

No other Pokemon has a move like Mirror Move so you can afford to do things differently. I would love to hear what decks you tested it with and what they looked like.

That's not true—[Mirror Move] is basically a watered down [Outrage] type attack. It's also a counter-time lapse version of [Right Back at You], effectively designating it as a Slugger style attack, that you need to reinforce around with effects that support the challenging aspect of Slugger style combat (such as the damage stack, Special Condition vulnerability, mobility, and Type-disadvantage). Sometimes, you may not be able to accommodate for each challenging factor. Space is limited, and consistency is important to reliably secure any of that potential at all. Akin to this, you have to pick and choose between them, and roll with the punches elsewhere. One good example of this that I've personally experiencing is having to sacrifice mobility to reinforce a Slugger strategy against the damage stack factor and Special Condition vulnerability. This sees me replacing cards like Float Stone with Fighting Fury Belt and Pokémon Center Lady—accompanying the greater synergy with the Slugger style combat of cards like [Outrage] Dragons or Tauros-GX.

Take note that [Mirror Move] is a more vulnerable attack as a watered down [Outrage], so that's naturally not some potential you want to bank on. It's there if you can use it, but you always want to prioritize the most stand-alone offensive potential for best results.


As for Supporters... Most just don't work with Pidgeot. To off set this, I play with Birch, which has the best synergy with Pidgeot. Sure the tails flips suck from time to time but Octillery offsets this.

That's not at all true. M Pidgeot is a very universal card...moreso than most M Pokémon. It's needs are rather simple. An energy, a Stadium as a bracer, a Max Potion, a Spirit Link. Between an intelligible bulk and cut draw strategy, its basic needs should be very easy to resource. However, that's not to say that some Supporters are counter-intuitive to M Pidgeot, because I discern that some definitely are. Professor Birch's Observations is definitely one of them. Although Pidgeot/M Pidgeot have simple needs, the deck abroad embodies a far greater overhead to secure your perimeters, and put together a powerful follow-up behind your lead offensive. Considering this, one has to evaluate how vulnerable their Active Pokémon is, or how much time they can spare, before being able to decide how much potential Professor Birch's Observations offers to their deck.

Typically, if you're going to go down, you mine as well take your opponent with you. And that's the main ideology behind Judge—over Professor Birch's Observations. Judge is actually a lot more synergistic with Pidgeot itself, as the card advantage disruption hopes to bide for time by cutting the opponent off from a majority of their resources. Once again, by reinforcing the deck structure to suite the lower end of Judge (such as full playsets of Professor Juniper/Misty's Determination/Lillie/Professor Kukui), you're going to best your chances of hitting the ground running instead of getting caught up for nothing. As an initial investment itself, and no disruption against the opponent, the small synergy between Octillery and Professor Birch's Observations doesn't even begin to measure up to what can be had by a stronger pair between Judge and a heavily reinforced Supporter base.
 
This is a lot to cover so bare with me for a sec.


Every card requires specific cards to "work", that is the very nature of synergy itself, which is what you must truly be referring to when you say that. Now, one think I hope you'll learn when it comes to this, is to not be greedy when it comes to synergy. Sometimes, it can be really hard to pick and choose between cards and their effects, wanting to reserve the potential of all of them, accompanied by the fact that each of their best potential is only had when the suite surrounding them is especially tailored to support them specifically. Trying to throw too many cards into the mix adulterates this proficiency, and ultimately detracts from their greatest potential.

Sure, that is what I mean.

With that said, if I may quote a famous Magic card, "It takes great sacrifice to make it to the top." This principal is very relevant here. Intelligible deck structuring can take great sacrifice, and you will have to pick and choose between very specific cards and/or suites if you truly wish to take into any alpha potential at all. Learning to be resolute, and let go of your sentimentality, is the key to mastering this technique. You might think that some cards are essential to the deck, but their potential is really general, offered by many other cards, which potentially would boast an even greater resource strategy for your deck.

This is a fair point. You have to sacrifice a lot to play Pidgeot. Luckily for me this isn't a problem. Pidgeot can't OHKO threats and its damage output is decent at best without help from things like Professor Kukui but what is a weakness works for Pidgeot. Its mega has 220 HP, free Retreat cost and synergy with Max Potion and Shrine of Memories because of Mirror Move on Pidgeot. That alone is seven to eight cards you can't afford to lose, maybe more if you opt for Puzzle of Time, which I argue you should be playing with it.

This is not really a simple technique to adapt. You have to always start from scratch, analyze the synergy between specific cards, and familiarize yourself with various suites consisting of like-effect cards (or contrast pairs) that boost the effectiveness of one another. From this, you can more intelligibly pair of specific cards like Puzzle of Time with Supporters that specifically benefit it (such as Professor Juniper/Misty's Determination), without including cards that detract from its potential (such a Judge).

I have been playing Pidgeot now for about 5 months exclusively and I learned a lot of the deck since I wrote the article. I weigh all the benefits a card can give against any negatives. I've given Shaymin-EX a lot of though and while its early game draw can be good, I found Octillery to be good because its less likely to be targeted than Shaymin-EX is. Pidgeot's biggest weakness is players going around it to KO Shaymins to take the lead. If they KO two Shaymin, all they need to do is KO a Pidgeot and they win whereas they can't do this with Octillery.

The same is true with Professor Juniper/Sycamore. If I max out these in the deck, chances are I lose more than I would gain. What if I'm forced to discard many copies of Max Potion and Shrine of Memories? This comes up more often than not with my one copy of Professor Sycamore in my deck. I like it at one because it isn't intrusive enough to worry about it showing up at the wrong time, though it can and has happened. Misty's Determination is worst that Skyla for this deck. Why risk missing what I need on the top eight when I can just look for it. The only thing Misty can do for me is find a Energy card where as Skyla can find me things like Puzzle of Time, which can find me clutch card. Since most of the time I'd need a Trainer card, Skyla works better.

[/QUOTE]Many times over, you should be able to discern that there is a prominent need for your deck above all else, based on the specific strategy you're entertaining, and what challenging aspects it faces that must be compensated for and reinforced against. Considering this here, I would discern the most prominent aspect for the Pidgeot deck is disruption, so the inclusion of Judge has a far higher priority than Puzzle of Time. Puzzle of Time itself shouldn't even be needed if a more intelligible draw strategy is implemented anyways. You should be able to easily conserve core card instead of waste them, so there's no need to just hopefully get a chance at recycling just 2 of them. [/QUOTE]

I agree that Pidgeot needs disruption but I think that should be just for things like Energy. Pidgeot's new goal should be to just be fast enough since if it can hit turn two as the mega, you add 130 of pressure, which can force your opponent to do things they don't want to. Hand disruption is great, which is while I play N but things like Judge hurt you if you aren't playing Octillery and since you never know what your opponent has in their hand, its harder to try to disrupt them when you have eight cards that you must run so forcing yourself to four cards in hand isn't the best idea if you can't combo off it.

It's like you said above, you need to make cuts to play this deck. You have to play Max Potion and Shrine of Memories, thus making your deck slower than your opponent's deck, which doesn't run these card and because of that, your goals to winning are different. Things like Puzzle of Time let Pidgeot stick around longer and can turn your four Max Potions into Eight Max Potion or X amount of Max Potions and Energy. It's just the perfect card for it since it lets Pidgeot say around. It's hard to save core cards (Puzzle of Time, Max Potion and Shrine of Memories, which I believe are the best options for the deck) when you Sycamore them all away. You can't control what you draw so you may get a good Sycamore or you might get a bad one.

I'm just not sure what Judge does for Pidgeot if you're not running Octillery. If you go to a low hand size, you are forced into top deck mode, which is what Pidgeot doesn't want to do.It wants to have access to Max Potion and Energy and Octillery makes these things easier.

Afterall, that is a play you'll only be lucky to make once a game—and just the same as Octillery—takes up 4 spots in your deck. That's a heavy amount of space to waste. Can you image how much better 2 copies of Trainers' Mail and 2 copies of Misty's Determination or Teammates would be? Their potential is more stand-alone, their range is greater, and their nature is far more conservative as well. I personally can't think of any reason why this deck would need Puzzle of Time. What was its best potential for you if you don't mind me asking?

If this is talking about Puzzle of Time, then I'll have you know I play it every match I need it. Its a win more card and it helps me cheese out games. As for Octillery, I don't consider it a waste. If Oranguru let you draw up to 5 cards, then Octillery would be gone - quick fast but its the best option for Pidgeot since it allows constant draw.

Trainers' Mail isn't consistent since I could either miss a card altogether or not get the one I need, the same being true for Misty's. Skyla will get me what I want is most cases. Teammates is a harder addition since it doesn't really do much if you take a KO. Getting any two cards you want is nice but it feels like it's a turn too slow whereas Skyla will at least find a Max Potion. I suppose Teammates can find things to complete a Mega Pidgeot but Mallow solves that when it's released.

Puzzle of time on the other hand is a card that will give you back resources you need. It's always nice to get back a Max Potion and Energy. Puzzle is always a nice card because it can complete combos for you.


This definitely falls in line with much of the aforementioned details. You might think it's some great resource, but consider the final paragraph of my last statement. Octillery takes up 4 spots in your deck, provokes you to a potentially heavy investment with a slow and closed-ranged profit margin. Those 4 spots can be brutally out-sourced by copies of other resourcing cards with more stand-alone potential, greater ranges of reach, and more conservative natures to them.

Yeah, it does take four slots and is slow but Pidgeot is already a slower deck because of what you have to run to make it work so having cards to keep Pidgeot around longer is a must have, though I agree it needs to be sped up.

That's not true—[Mirror Move] is basically a watered down
[Outrage] type attack. It's also a counter-time lapse version of [Right Back at You], effectively designating it as a Slugger style attack, that you need to reinforce around with effects that support the challenging aspect of Slugger style combat (such as the damage stack, Special Condition vulnerability, mobility, and Type-disadvantage). Sometimes, you may not be able to accommodate for each challenging factor. Space is limited, and consistency is important to reliably secure any of that potential at all. Akin to this, you have to pick and choose between them, and roll with the punches elsewhere. One good example of this that I've personally experiencing is having to sacrifice mobility to reinforce a Slugger strategy against the damage stack factor and Special Condition vulnerability. This sees me replacing cards like Float Stone with Fighting Fury Belt and Pokémon Center Lady—accompanying the greater synergy with the Slugger style combat of cards like [Outrage] Dragons or Tauros-GX.


The goal here IMO is to make the opponent do something they don't want to. Unlike Outrage and Tauros-GX, you don't have to have any damage on you, just that you took some last time.

That's not at all true. M Pidgeot is a very universal card...moreso than most M Pokémon. It's needs are rather simple. An energy, a Stadium as a bracer, a Max Potion, a Spirit Link. Between an intelligible bulk and cut draw strategy, its basic needs should be very easy to resource. However, that's not to say that some Supporters are counter-intuitive to M Pidgeot, because I discern that some definitely are. Professor Birch's Observations is definitely one of them. Although Pidgeot/M Pidgeot have simple needs, the deck abroad embodies a far greater overhead to secure your perimeters, and put together a powerful follow-up behind your lead offensive. Considering this, one has to evaluate how vulnerable their Active Pokémon is, or how much time they can spare, before being able to decide how much potential Professor Birch's Observations offers to their deck.

The needs aren't that simple though. You need to have access to four cards at all times, which is way more demanding than some of the popular decks in the format now. Things like Octillery helps you find them and Birch at least keeps them around at the expense of a tails flip. The problem is Pidgeot doesn't work well with the supporter lines out now and even a turbo Pidgeot build requires at least Max Potion and Shrine of Memories.

Typically, if you're going to go down, you mine as well take your opponent with you. And that's the main ideology behind Judge—over Professor Birch's Observations. Judge is actually a lot more synergistic with Pidgeot itself, as the card advantage disruption hopes to bide for time by cutting the opponent off from a majority of their resources. Once again, by reinforcing the deck structure to suite the lower end of Judge (such as full playsets of Professor Juniper/Misty's Determination/Lillie/Professor Kukui), you're going to best your chances of hitting the ground running instead of getting caught up for nothing. As an initial investment itself, and no disruption against the opponent, the small synergy between Octillery and Professor Birch's Observations doesn't even begin to measure up to what can be had by a stronger pair between Judge and a heavily reinforced Supporter base.

I can understand the judge play but N works just as well here, without putting you at a lower hand size. If I have to feed a Pidgeot to something, I at least know I did a Mirror Move and I can N next turn to remove any advantage my opponent may have got. I like Octillery and Birch because it keeps resources around and Octillery is a good rebound of a bad Birch but I at least didn't have to discard a hand of resources to maybe get something going. Pidgeot is better played at "stand my ground" than it is at being fast.
 
I really hope this is truly just a rendition of, "I see the light now...but this was my logic on all these things."

Your argument on Skyla could be right. Not entirely sure that this particular deck would have any specific needs where Misty's Determination offers more versatile potential over Skyla. The energy and Pokémon should easily be resourceable through your bulk and cut draw. Skyla would probably be a much better option here.

N does not work as well as Judge. It's a greater bulk draw, but it's only effective if you play Turn 1. N can be more effective based on your needs, or how immense an offensive defensive you can establish with it to offset the potential advantage you extend to your opponent with it. Judge however is a take no prisoners, all killer/no filler disruption card. It makes a great play no matter which turn you play and sure to always put the opponent at a disadvantage. With how naïve the mainstream builds structures their deck, cutting them down to four cards is likely to cripple the average player a great majority of the time. With the release of Lillie, there is some counter-intelligence against Judge now. Thing is—I highly doubt that anyone is going to be playing 4 Lillie to have a considerable chance of making that powerplay for 8 cards after a Turn 1 Judge.

There's nothing left to speak on about Puzzle of Time or Octillery. Shrine of Memories I agree is a great Stadium for M Pidgeot. Not only does it enable [Mirror Move] but [Feather Lance] is a really amazing attack to use first if you would have to Two-Hit KO the opponent's Active Pokémon. That 30 damage to the bench is a decent jump on the damage stack—especially alongside Bursting Balloon. I'm currently debating the effectiveness of Pidgeot Spirit Link over Fighting Fury Belt. I am leaning towards the decision that for this deck specifically, you'd want to utilize Teammates/Bursting Balloon/and Fighting Fury Belt and use the Pyukumuku block to M Evolve Pidgeot without the Spirit Link.

Still waiting on your thoughts on adding {Stand In} Zoroark to this deck. I think it could boast a lot of potential against Volcanion and Trevenant BREAK specifically. Jolteon-EX and [Mirror Move]/Max Potion can be a smash on Darkrai and Yveltal, so I would consider those two strongly checked.
 
I really hope this is truly just a rendition of, "I see the light now...but this was my logic on all these things."

Your argument on Skyla could be right. Not entirely sure that this particular deck would have any specific needs where Misty's Determination offers more versatile potential over Skyla. The energy and Pokémon should easily be resourceable through your bulk and cut draw. Skyla would probably be a much better option here.

The thing about Skyla is it can find you what you need, which is a Trainer card in most cases, whether or not its a Max Potion, Shrine of Memories or a Puzzle, which are three very important card in the deck. It can also grab you a Mega Turbo should you need the energy so in all, four very good non supporter cards. The only thing Misty's Determination can offer is Energy, since we have no real way to search them effectively, which you have a good chance to miss and if a Energy is what you need, then Skyla can at least find Mega Turbo

N does not work as well as Judge. It's a greater bulk draw, but it's only effective if you play Turn 1. N can be more effective based on your needs, or how immense an offensive defensive you can establish with it to offset the potential advantage you extend to your opponent with it. Judge however is a take no prisoners, all killer/no filler disruption card. It makes a great play no matter which turn you play and sure to always put the opponent at a disadvantage. With how naïve the mainstream builds structures their deck, cutting them down to four cards is likely to cripple the average player a great majority of the time. With the release of Lillie, there is some counter-intelligence against Judge now. Thing is—I highly doubt that anyone is going to be playing 4 Lillie to have a considerable chance of making that powerplay for 8 cards after a Turn 1 Judge.

I like N because it's still a good draw support early in the game whereas Judge acts more as a disruptive card since it can reduce your opponent's hand to four cards before they played anything. Since The early game is a bit rocky for my Pidgeot build, seeing two more cards can be helpful in getting setup. Early game you don't really care much about what your opponent has since you can't do much about it. I learned it the many months of playing Pidgeot to not rely on disruption as much because a fast Mach Cyclone or Feather Lance is just as good. Also with lots of draw support around, its hard to keep someone out of the game if you don't actively play a disruptive deck. It's much better to just hope they brick but I do think Pidgeot should be running at least hammers but space is a issue.

There's nothing left to speak on about Puzzle of Time or Octillery. Shrine of Memories I agree is a great Stadium for M Pidgeot. Not only does it enable [Mirror Move] but [Feather Lance] is a really amazing attack to use first if you would have to Two-Hit KO the opponent's Active Pokémon. That 30 damage to the bench is a decent jump on the damage stack—especially alongside Bursting Balloon. I'm currently debating the effectiveness of Pidgeot Spirit Link over Fighting Fury Belt. I am leaning towards the decision that for this deck specifically, you'd want to utilize Teammates/Bursting Balloon/and Fighting Fury Belt and use the Pyukumuku block to M Evolve Pidgeot without the Spirit Link.

I do think Pidgeot can get away without the Spirit Link. My deck used to run two of them but now I went up to three but I do want to find a way to add my FFB back to the list because it does help a lot in the Water Toolbox matchup. All I can say is try it with Octillery and Puzzlr of Time. I do like the idea of Pyukumuku allowing Pidgeot the free evolve though, its just in practice it would be easy to get around.

Still waiting on your thoughts on adding {Stand In} Zoroark to this deck. I think it could boast a lot of potential against Volcanion and Trevenant BREAK specifically. Jolteon-EX and [Mirror Move]/Max Potion can be a smash on Darkrai and Yveltal, so I would consider those two strongly checked.

I don't like Zoroark as a Pokemon so I never considered it but if you're running Pyukumuku and such, how do you find space for it? Zoroark is a good inclusing in most deck but if you're looking to play things like Zoroark and Jolteon-EX, then you're most likely better of playing that. Pidgeot doesn't have issues dealing with Darkrai or Yveltal assuming you don't brick. Pidgeot also prevents them from keeping Energy in play. I guess it comes down to personal taste. I don't know how long you've been playing Mega Pidgeot but I've been playing it since it was released. I don't have the deck perfect but its on its way there so any new tech is welcomed but in the games I've played with the new meta, you want to have a good first turn and be decently fast without giving up cards Pidgeot like. I'm trying to find that balance.
 
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