OU: Pokémon ORAS Suspect Testing - Round 1 - Greninja

[Uralya]

it's not a mega guise

Additional info on Greninja is in this CDotW thread

So, this was bound to happen someday. Discuss the implications of this suspect test, what a ban would do for the metagame (or what it wouldn't), laddering for reqs, and so on. Have fun!



Personal note: I'm pretty for banning Greninja. It does restrict teambuilding to a great degree by making things like Tentacruel/Porygon2 rise in usage, and it is also such great offensive glue (comparable to Thundurus imo) with its 7+ viable STABs, godly speed tier, and utility. The only things holding it back are (bulky) teams wearing it down with LO+Spikes, HO (3

5u), and priority, since its frailty is notable and its attack power isn't quite phenomenal. Nevertheless, it does an insane job meshing with offensive teammates like Gallade/Lopunny, Volturn cores, Talonflame, et cetera, and can do all of weakening cores, firing STABs mindlessly at offensive teams, and cleaning up with little trouble.

 

[Scattered mind]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

I hope it will be banned. Every team I make I have to think about Greninja and to manage it so my team will be able to handle it and at the same time not having sets that are builed in a way that the only reaon to run them is because of him . From what I see, removing him will only do good for the metagame. Protean is the bless and curse of Greninja much like Speed boost for Blaziken.
There are just so many Pokemon in OU that would get better thanks to its ban. To name a few.. Mega Slowbro(Can have rough time against Gren if not boosted), Clefable,Sylveon,Landorus-T,Gliscor,Garchomp,Gengar,Latios,Mew..
By the way , if it will be banned , Blaziken will no longer hold the title of the only starter Pokemon that got banned to Ubers

 

[PhantomHaze]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

Knew it would happen, I'm against, but when am I not against Smogon lol

I'm against because its a Glass Cannon, some of the types it switches to are weak to common priority moves. This makes it easy to revenge kill or scare out. If you have hazzards you can easliy ware it down as it often switches. As long as you can revenge kill you are safe.

 

[rauber]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

If greninja gets banned it would become an useless pokemon in ubers just like it happened to mega-lucario. In my opinion these are types of pokemon that can be countered,but they scare and traumatize just like me having a problem with chanseys and conkeldurs, they deserved to be in OU since they can be checked or easily killed with faster pokes/priority. So im in favor of greninja stays in OU and i dont know where to start or give the idea to smogon but im in favor to retest lucarionite.

 

[Cinesra]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

How good or bad a pokemon is in ubers doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not a pokemon is too good for OU, which Mega Lucario definitely is and Greninja probably is based on what I've heard about ORAS OU.

 

[AlexanderTheAwesome]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

If greninja gets banned it would become an useless pokemon in ubers just like it happened to mega-lucario. In my opinion these are types of pokemon that can be countered,but they scare and traumatize just like me having a problem with chanseys and conkeldurs, they deserved to be in OU since they can be checked or easily killed with faster pokes/priority. So im in favor of greninja stays in OU and i dont know where to start or give the idea to smogon but im in favor to retest lucarionite.

Pokemon don't get banned to be good in ubers. They get banned because they're too good for OU

The problem is that what is defined as a "true" counter, greninja only has one of. In XY it had more than enough, and all of it's counters were played relatively often. Now that greninja has Gunk shot, 4 counters it used to have (Blissey, Chansey, Clefable, Azumarill) now get #rektintheface. The only true counter now is Empoleon, which is not very OU viable

 

[thood]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

If greninja gets banned it would become an useless pokemon in ubers just like it happened to mega-lucario. In my opinion these are types of pokemon that can be countered,but they scare and traumatize just like me having a problem with chanseys and conkeldurs, they deserved to be in OU since they can be checked or easily killed with faster pokes/priority. So im in favor of greninja stays in OU and i dont know where to start or give the idea to smogon but im in favor to retest lucarionite.

Pokemon don't get banned to be good in ubers. They get banned because they're too good for OU

The problem is that what is defined as a "true" counter, greninja only has one of. In XY it had more than enough, and all of it's counters were played relatively often. Now that greninja has Gunk shot, 4 counters it used to have (Blissey, Chansey, Clefable, Azumarill) now get #rektintheface. The only true counter now is Empoleon, which is not very OU viable

But if you're running Gunk Shot on Greninja, then you can't (or at least shouldn't be) running Extrasensory, which makes Tentacruel a solid counter. I think he's fine in OU. The trick is just being able to figure out what his fourth move is. Don't ruin Greninja just because he's a pubstomp 'Mon.

 

[AlexanderTheAwesome]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

Pokemon don't get banned to be good in ubers. They get banned because they're too good for OU

The problem is that what is defined as a "true" counter, greninja only has one of. In XY it had more than enough, and all of it's counters were played relatively often. Now that greninja has Gunk shot, 4 counters it used to have (Blissey, Chansey, Clefable, Azumarill) now get #rektintheface. The only true counter now is Empoleon, which is not very OU viable

But if you're running Gunk Shot on Greninja, then you can't (or at least shouldn't be) running Extrasensory, which makes Tentacruel a solid counter. I think he's fine in OU. The trick is just being able to figure out what his fourth move is. Don't ruin Greninja just because he's a pubstomp 'Mon.

Ok I won't even try and argue because it doesn't matter
A pokemon needs more stops than just two other obscure pokemon.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

Let's face it, being nearly impossible to counter isn't the only thing Greninja has going on for it. Of course, it is important; the only Pokemon capable of countering most Greninja are Empoleon and Tentacruel, both of which are generally not really strong in OU. Tentacruel has Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin, but it is outclassed as a Spinner and Toxic Sikes aren't enough of a reason to keep it in OU. Empoleon is a Defogger, but is again outclassed. Being forced to run one of these two Pokemon or your face gets wrecked by a frog that plays in half the teams out there is the very definition of overcentralization. To add to this, there is Greninja's amazing synergy with nearly every team; you can slap it almost anywhere with little risk and high gain. I like this Pokemon a lot, but I won't be surprised if it gets the boot, and I wouldn't call it unjustified.

 

[PhantomHaze]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

I homestly dont see it getting banned but maybe having certain moves/sets banned. Greninja gets unparallel coverage but suffers from Four Slot Move Syndrone. In X/Y it didnt have the same coverage as ORAS and if it lost some of the moves it wouldnt be as over powered. I know a sound stupid and saying this without knowledge but Smogon has banned certain sets in the past.

 

[AlexanderTheAwesome]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

I homestly dont see it getting banned but maybe having certain moves/sets banned. Greninja gets unparallel coverage but suffers from Four Slot Move Syndrone. In X/Y it didnt have the same coverage as ORAS and if it lost some of the moves it wouldnt be as over powered. I know a sound stupid and saying this without knowledge but Smogon has banned certain sets in the past.

The fact that it has four move slot syndrome is a problem:
This makes Greninja very difficult to predict, often leaving your opponent wondering whether or not certain pokemon will be safe if brought in (like ferrothorn if running HP Fire). Also I mean think about, people are saying "Greninja is bad because it has 6-7 really good moves, but I can only use 4"
That makes no sense because a Pokemon should never have the option to just pick between 7 really good moves (Im talking attacking moves here, not stat boosting moves or status condition moves).

 

[Cinesra]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

I know a sound stupid and saying this without knowledge but Smogon has banned certain sets in the past.

Please tell me when this has ever happened. Smogon avoids complex bans like the plague. They won't even allow Blaze Blaziken when Speed Boost is what made it broken because they're paranoid that banning a hidden ability on a pokemon will set a precedent and lead to stupid complex bans like Kyogre with no moves over 60 base power.

But if you're running Gunk Shot on Greninja, then you can't (or at least shouldn't be) running Extrasensory, which makes Tentacruel a solid counter. I think he's fine in OU. The trick is just being able to figure out what his fourth move is. Don't ruin Greninja just because he's a pubstomp 'Mon.

Great so now everybody has to put Tentacruel on every team to counter Greninja. Plus if enough people run Tentacruel, more and more Greninja are going to start running Extrasensory. Figuring out the 4th moveslot is also a problem because you're very likely to get something heavily damaged, if not KO'd in the process which can open up huge holes in your team for your opponent's sweepers.

 

[thood]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

I know a sound stupid and saying this without knowledge but Smogon has banned certain sets in the past.

Please tell me when this has ever happened. Smogon avoids complex bans like the plague. They won't even allow Blaze Blaziken when Speed Boost is what made it broken because they're paranoid that banning a hidden ability on a pokemon will set a precedent and lead to stupid complex bans like Kyogre with no moves over 60 base power.

But if you're running Gunk Shot on Greninja, then you can't (or at least shouldn't be) running Extrasensory, which makes Tentacruel a solid counter. I think he's fine in OU. The trick is just being able to figure out what his fourth move is. Don't ruin Greninja just because he's a pubstomp 'Mon.

Great so now everybody has to put Tentacruel on every team to counter Greninja. Plus if enough people run Tentacruel, more and more Greninja are going to start running Extrasensory. Figuring out the 4th moveslot is also a problem because you're very likely to get something heavily damaged, if not KO'd in the process which can open up huge holes in your team for your opponent's sweepers.

Specially Defensive Rotom-W provides another counter so long as Greninja doesn't rin HP Grass. Greninja can at best 3HKO with Gunk Shot, while Rotom-W can OHKO back with Thunderbolt.

 

[Cinesra]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

The keywords there are "so long as it doesn't run HP Grass". SpDef Rotom-W has basically the exact same problems as Tentacruel. You're being basically forced to use subpar Pokemon (what reason is there besides ninja to run SpD over physical defensive Rotom) on every team and hope that your opponent doesn't carry the move it needs to to KO you, which they very well will if your specific check becomes popular enough.

 

[PhantomHaze]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

I know a sound stupid and saying this without knowledge but Smogon has banned certain sets in the past.

Please tell me when this has ever happened. Smogon avoids complex bans like the plague. They won't even allow Blaze Blaziken when Speed Boost is what made it broken because they're paranoid that banning a hidden ability on a pokemon will set a precedent and lead to stupid complex bans like Kyogre with no moves over 60 base power.

Smogon has banned plently of HA or just regular abilities in BW and currently(Moody,Sand Veil, Drizzle) instead of banning the pokemon. So stating they avoid complex bans is incorrect, they have ban certain abilities from being used on the same team as other abilities.

This list from Smogon that encludes bans that can be stated as "Complex" bans going back to GSC OU

http://www.smogon.com/tournaments/spl/rules
So you saying

Smogon avoids complex bans like the plague.

is false. They live for them to make the "Metagame" easier

 

[Chaos Jackal]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

The most complex bans Smogon has ever included is the Endless Battle Clause, which HAS to be complex as there are one or two sets that can accomplish it (and therefore you can't ban Slowbro just because FunBro), Baton Pass restriction to one Pokemon per team, and Drizzle+Swift Swim. There is of course the old Perish Trap Sleep combo ban, but it has been removed from RSE already, and we're talking about the very first SPLs, not to mention a much more limited metagame. And even in that case, the rule applied to all Pokemon that could use said set (only a handful, I know, but still). There has never been a rule stating "X Pokemon can't be used with Y move", unless you count the silent agreement of Ubers players not using Dragon Ascent on Rayquaza despite the move being available on the teambuilder. Banning Sand Veil or Moody in general is NOT a complex ban, since it applies to EVERY Pokemon that is able to use them. Banning Swagger or OHKO moves is NOT a complex ban, as it affects ALL Pokemon that can use them. Banning Speed Boost only on Blaziken, or Gunk Shot only on Greninja ARE complex bans, since they affect only Blaziken or Greninja respectively and not Ninjask, Yanmega, Swalot or Muk.
tl;dr Smogon avoids complex bans like the plague. This isn't the thread to discuss it though, so I'll just say that Greninja will either get banned or stay; no middle-of-the-road solutions.

 

[PhantomHaze]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

The most complex bans Smogon has ever included is the Endless Battle Clause, which HAS to be complex as there are one or two sets that can accomplish it (and therefore you can't ban Slowbro just because FunBro), Baton Pass restriction to one Pokemon per team, and Drizzle+Swift Swim. There is of course the old Perish Trap Sleep combo ban, but it has been removed from RSE already, and we're talking about the very first SPLs, not to mention a much more limited metagame. And even in that case, the rule applied to all Pokemon that could use said set (only a handful, I know, but still). There has never been a rule stating "X Pokemon can't be used with Y move", unless you count the silent agreement of Ubers players not using Dragon Ascent on Rayquaza despite the move being available on the teambuilder. Banning Sand Veil or Moody in general is NOT a complex ban, since it applies to EVERY Pokemon that is able to use them. Banning Swagger or OHKO moves is NOT a complex ban, as it affects ALL Pokemon that can use them. Banning Speed Boost only on Blaziken, or Gunk Shot only on Greninja ARE complex bans, since they affect only Blaziken or Greninja respectively and not Ninjask, Yanmega, Swalot or Muk.
tl;dr Smogon avoids complex bans like the plague. This isn't the thread to discuss it though, so I'll just say that Greninja will either get banned or stay; no middle-of-the-road solutions.

I only mention Moody and other abilities because it was mention that they dont like to ban abilities on pokemon but in fact they do.

 

[AlexanderTheAwesome]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

Please tell me when this has ever happened. Smogon avoids complex bans like the plague. They won't even allow Blaze Blaziken when Speed Boost is what made it broken because they're paranoid that banning a hidden ability on a pokemon will set a precedent and lead to stupid complex bans like Kyogre with no moves over 60 base power.

Smogon has banned plently of HA or just regular abilities in BW and currently(Moody,Sand Veil, Drizzle) instead of banning the pokemon. So stating they avoid complex bans is incorrect, they have ban certain abilities from being used on the same team as other abilities.

This list from Smogon that encludes bans that can be stated as "Complex" bans going back to GSC OU

http://www.smogon.com/tournaments/spl/rules
So you saying

Smogon avoids complex bans like the plague.

is false. They live for them to make the "Metagame" easier

That's not a complex ban

A simple ban is banning a Pokemon, a move, an ability, or an item
A complex ban is banning a Pokemon in conjugation with a move, an ability, or an item

It actually does avoid complex band like the plague.
Instead of banning Lati@s with Soul Dew, they banned any Pokemon with Soul Dew.
Instead of banning Speed Boost Blaziken, they banned Blaziken
Instead of banning Drizzle Politoed or Drought Ninetales in UU, they banned Drizzle and Drought

Saying banning Moody or Sand Veil is a complex ban is incorrect
They banned Moody, they did not ban Moody Smeargle

For this reason, avoiding complex bans, they will either ban Gunk Shot or Greninja, not ban Greninja with Gunk Shot. It would be crazy though to ban Gunk Shot because then things like Toxicroak can't run it, which is honestly just kinda dumb if they did.

It is also not true that not banning abilities was stated. Not doing complex bans was what was stated

 

[PhantomHaze]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

Saying banning Moody or Sand Veil is a complex ban is incorrect
They banned Moody, they did not ban Moody Smeargle

For this reason, avoiding complex bans, they will either ban Gunk Shot or Greninja, not ban Greninja with Gunk Shot. It would be crazy though to ban Gunk Shot because then things like Toxicroak can't run it, which is honestly just kinda dumb if they did.

It is also not true that not banning abilities was stated. Not doing complex bans was what was stated

I never said Moody was a complex ban, I stated that they have banned abilities over all not just for one pokemon. And I didnt say ban Gunk Shot as a move but ban it for just greninja.

 

[Cinesra]

RE: Greninja Suspect Test

I didn't mean that they don't ban abilities. I meant that they don't ban the combination of one mon with one ability like Speed Boost only on Blaziken or Protean only on Greninja. Those would be complex bans just like banning Gunk Shot only on Greninja and therefore aren't going to happen.