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Expanded Ninja Box- Unified minds

Discussion in 'PTCG Deck Garage' started by Laurier_Ex, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Laurier_Ex Ninja master
    Laurier_Ex

    Member

    I think the birds won't make the cut. There seems to be better options. Buzzmosa can do 190 dmg with 2 attachments. And if you want more damage for the same requirements, I think I would rather use Reshizard.
     


  2. CharlieBirdy Aspiring Trainer
    CharlieBirdy

    Member

    Oh a spurious fantasy indeed. Tbh, noiverns gx won me a 5 prize turn against unown hand, so the prospect of higher damage spread was tempting
     
  3. Laurier_Ex Ninja master
    Laurier_Ex

    Member

    I get why you would include it but I think it is not good enough to be included. Meta revolves around big basics at the moment more often than not.
     
  4. Jack Saunders Aspiring Trainer
    Jack Saunders

    Member

    Have you thought of playing Zeraora GX, it seems like the deck has minimal switching options, and could get stuck if someone brings a 2 retreat cost Pokémon into the active. Also what’s your opinion on cherish ball for this deck? Seems like it could be really good
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  5. Laurier_Ex Ninja master
    Laurier_Ex

    Member

    Did try to include it and also Darkrai-EX before that. The thing is that you do not want to retreat most of the time. If you do, Ninja Boy into Jolteon-EX or Latios—GX can work since they have no retreat cost (and also synergize very well with Guzma). Usually you do not need to retreat. Knowing when to attach either to the bench or the active is the way to go and since you can stall, you can usually afford to give 1-2 prizes by having to sacrifice the active. He other thing, if they do not OHKO you, you can retaliate with Tauros-GX or Machamp-EX to trade even.

    The other thing is that since you play the stall game, you can't afford having too many bench sitters and having a pokemon to help with retreat is one more piece on your bench that I believe is not that helpful f om my testing.

    I tried playing Zeraora-GX with Xerneas prism and included good GX attacks that cost a lot like Dialga-GX’s GX attack but it did not seem to pay off enough to be worth the space.
     
  6. Jack Saunders Aspiring Trainer
    Jack Saunders

    Member

    How do you play around it if they item lock you (trevenant/beheeyem) and you don’t have any ninja boy in hand? I know that those matchups are good due to Magearna EX for trev and glaceon EX for Beheeyem, but if they stall enough of get stuff stuck in the active it can be bad, it seems very situational that you will have ninja boy in hand without the option of mysterious treasure or communication for Lele.
    How do you feel about adding xurkitree GX? Is it worth it?
    Also would you put in stealthy hood for garb? I know it works wonders in my Archie’s list, but I’m not sure if it’s consistent enough to play.
    For Primal groudon EX, is there a way to stop that deck? It plays both basics and evolution Pokémon, not sure how to deal with that deck.
    One last question, is there a way to counter Noivern GX from blocking your special energies? Do you have a way of dealing with it, or do you just take the loss to noivern GX?

    On a fun side note, I proxied this deck already and played a few games with my brother, who was playing Trev. I had a hard time playing it, but I did manage to donk him twice with pheremosa. I love that interaction. One of the most fun decks I have played in a long a time. I really want to play this at least locally and if it’s good enough, I might try it at a regionals that I’m playing in the future.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  7. Laurier_Ex Ninja master
    Laurier_Ex

    Member

    I think i only ended up playing one time against Beheeyem so I do not have much experience against it. Not even sure that this was playing expanded. Seems like its not very common. I guess that the way to beat it would be through the use of Glaceon-EX as you said. Beating Trevenant is not very easy because they usually have multiple enhanced hammers and the item lock can hurt a lot. Including more counters like Giratina XY promo is not really worth it anymore imo and there are few dark attackers that are really worth the inclusion. The way I usually do it is by stalling with Latias-EX. If they do not play either Silent lab or Espeon-EX it is gg. Usually they do play Espeon-EX, not so much Silent lab. So the idea is to avoid attaching energies and just wait for Espeon-EX to attack Latias-EX. Then you can use items and play Ninja Boy into Tauros-GX to get rid of the threat. Use all the VS seeker you can at that moment to bring as many supporters back as you can. After they need to rescue stretcher Espeon-EX back because you just bring Latias-EX back into play and keep stalling. Then you try repeating the pattern. Playing Glaceon-EX with Magearna-EX would work if they had not so many energy denial but thats not the case. The other way to boost win% would be to include a 1-1 Zoroark-GX line into the deck. Did that sometimes but thats not something I recommend that much unless you play against a lot of Trevenant decks. If you are not careful and bench too much, you can loose by being stuck with some crap in the active but you got to be aware of that and try to play around it. Get rid of undesired pokemon by using Ninja Boy to deny prizes on your bench.

    As far as Groudon-EX goes, it is weak to Buzzmoza and it cant OHKO it back so that would be the way to go about it. Before that it was harder to beat but that option now makes it much easier. Using FFB on a pokemon that gets over 200hp also allows you to use Ninja Boy into Machamp to OHKO them.

    I tried including Xurkitree-GX but I did not find it was worth it. Not many decks rely solely on special energy and you have other means to beat most of them.

    Stealthy hood seems like a very good idea actually. I will need to try using that one.

    Noivern-GX is really hard to beat. Unless they brick or you can donk the deck, it is very likely you will loose. The way to win against it would be to include something like Channeler but I feel like its better to just accept the loss against that one. It is not something very commonly played in expanded. Honchkrow falls into the same category but I like the idea of using Stealthy hood here.

    There are many Inclusions possible here so just use your imagination. The good thing is also that this deck never gets old.

    Good luck and have fun.
     
  8. Jack Saunders Aspiring Trainer
    Jack Saunders

    Member

    Thanks,
    I think honchcrow doesn’t affect a pokemon, it affects ur hand, so stealthy hood won’t be great in that matchup. Also, I’m thinking of a few techs, like maybe an oranguru due to the fact that the new mewtwo mew expanded deck can
    1. Marshadow you, 2. Play mars 3. plus unfair GX to put you to one card for your second turn, and it can get that pretty consistantly. I also tried taking out coms for more mysterious treasure, it just seemed generaly better search, as well as tested replacing unknowns with Marshadows. Not sure how I like that yet, it is much more disruptive to your opponent, which could be good if they need certain cards to overcome a lock. I’m trying a lot of things, I’m fascinated with this deck.

    One thing tho, not sure life forest is worth, I cut that one.
     
  9. Laurier_Ex Ninja master
    Laurier_Ex

    Member

    Thanks for pointing that out about Honchkrow, you are definitely right.

    Did not have to play against that Mewtwo&Mew expanded deck with disruption you are talking about but totally understand why you would need Oranguru or other ways to recover in this case. In the past I included things like Drampa-Gx or Dialga-Gx that have an ability to draw cards for you as well if needed. Gives you more ways to get out of sticky situations. Dialga-Gx also has 2 other decent attacks that can be useful here and

    Mysterious treasure vs Pokemon communication: I personally find Pokemon communication to be better if you want to keep it more oriented around Ninja Boy because it sends back Pokemons in your deck in order to be able to use Ninja Boy. In the past I had issues sometimes ending up having the Pokemon I wanted to swap into in my hands with no good ways to return it into my deck to Ninja Boy into it. But if you think you can lean towards more Mewtwo&Mew, I can understand Mysterious treasure being an option. I personally prefer having more Pokemon communication and would hardly drop below 2 copy of these.

    Marshadow could be an option. I used it a little bit but did not end up keeping it. Does not mean it's not good but I really like to have Unown to deny prizes on the bench and recycle Shaymin-Ex and Tapu-Lele-Gx so I can use them more often if I need to. Also has a very good synergy with Mallow.

    Life Forest is definitely the card that I use the least and can definitely be cut. On the other hand, I think that having 3 stadiums can be important against some matchups. Not saying it's mandatory but winning the stadium war is sometimes needed, especially against things like Power Plant and Shrine of Punishment.

    Here are a few techs that I think can be worth the inclusion depending on what you are facing:

    - Karen: Good against Nightmarch, Vespiquen and Mewtwo&Mew decks.

    - Nihilego: This one has limited use but can turn games around when you expect the least.

    - Oranguru ULP/Regirock XY promo: Good against Disruptive/mill decks.

    Depending on what you are playing against, there are many other things that you could include but I think the deck list I sent covers a lot of matchup. It is not perfect but it has very good potential.

    Regards,
     
  10. Laurier_Ex Ninja master
    Laurier_Ex

    Member

    Updated list with comments people brought.

    - Removed Life Forest (not often seeing use for it)
    - Removed Glaceon-Ex (seems like most of the matchup it was useful can be won with Mewtwo&Mew-Gx)
    - Added an extra copy of Jolteon-Ex
    - Added an extra copy of Mewtwo&Mew-Gx

    A few aside notes:

    - From testings, I think that Keldeo-Gx is not a must but it definitely helps against fire decks and Turbo dark decks. I tested with and without and I think that all things considered, this is rather meta dependant. I would play Keldeo-Gx or Karen depending on the meta. Karen can counter Mewtwo&Mew-Gx and a few other decks which is pretty handy. Can also help since you only play a copy of most pokemons. Bringing back Comfey to life for exemple can save your life against some decks that play around special conditions.

    - I think that Mysterious treasure can be useful but is not mandatory and can be swapped for an additional Pokemon Communication but this is taste dependent.

    - Also tried to remove N and include a copy of Reset Stamp instead. I must say that I like that a lot. Using N can be great but I do not often end up using it more than one time per game. It also removes the possibility of using Ninja Boy and that is sometime an issue.

    I played a lot during the weekend and i would say i got at least 80% win rate with the list. The only deck that I really had no way to beat during my play time was Zoroark-Gx control deck with Oranguru ressource management. I played numerous meta decks and always had a way to beat them. More often than not I would loose because I made mistakes so I think that with perfect play I would be above 85% if not more.

    I would say this deck as very few auto losses in it's current iteration. The worst matchups that I would consider "auto losses" in the actual deck state are:

    - Zoroark-Gx control and some other mill decks
    - Noivern-Gx
    - Honchkrow-Gx

    Here are a few ideas on how to tech in order to beat those decks:

    I tried using Girafarig, Oranguru ULP or Regirock XY promo against Zoroark-Gx control before but it doesn't cut it. It works against other mill decks but not that one.
    To beat Zoroark-Gx control (apart from donking a lone Zorua in the active) I think would require to make them deck out and give them taste of their own medicine. The way to do it would be to include a few cards that can mill them when they get to the point where they have only a few cards left in their deck and just recycle through Oranguru ULP. Including Houndoom for exemple with 2 copies of Trick Shovel could probably work. Maybe a copy of the Stage 2 Charizard-Gx with the Gx attack that discards 10 of your opponents cards would be another way to do it. This could require a few basic fire energies since they have a lot of energy denial.

    Noivern-Gx or Honkrow-Gx would require to have other means of attaching special energies to your pokemon than from your hand. Including Jirachi-Gx or Shining Mew for example could work.

    Finally, I would consider Alolan Muk and Garbotoxin to be pretty annoying. I tried to add Stealthy Hood for that reason but ended up not playing against any decks where I needed it. I still think that it could be a good idea to include it for this reason.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  11. Jack Saunders Aspiring Trainer
    Jack Saunders

    Member

    Yea my list of this right now is pretty similar, with only a couple différences,
    I still do play Glaceon EX, it’s really good vs Zoroark (Attacking one, usually with Raticate, control is definitely a bad matchup.) and beheeyem, so I still only play one jolteon EX
    I swapped Tauros GX for Jirachi GX, I think one outrager is probably ok, (Either Tauros or Machamp, both are good, I’m trying Machamp Rn, but it can easily be swapped with Tauros GX) plus Jirachi helps out in the mirror a LOT. You can have Jirachi GX down, so your opponent doesn’t hit weakness, then on your turn ninja boy it out for something and you hit weakness on them.
    Hapu for a sycamore, that’s just personal preference
    Took out one ninja boy and added Noivern GX, generally a busted card, although I might re add ninja boy if I find another opening
    Took out thunder mountain for a stealthy hood, never once used it and stealthy hood is generally a pretty good card
    Also still only play one mewtwo mew and have a Colress instead. I find that I only ever use one because of the locks it sets up, also because I don’t own another mewtwo Mew.

    I’m not as experienced with this deck, so take my changes with a grain of salt, these are just some things I found I liked whilst playing this deck
    I’m definitely not as experienced as OP with this deck, but this is an alternative to try if you like.
    One warning though, this deck is not at all easy to play, you have to put in a lot of time to master it. I’ll probably keep testing, I have a few local expanded tourneys coming up, so we’ll see how it goes, and I’ll continue to post on this thread if I find things not already discussed. I’m also attending Portland regionals, and I’m not 100% set on this deck yet, I’ll have to get better and learn it more before I’m confident enough to bring it to a regionals.

    This is one of my favorite decks I’ve played in the past years, I recommend at least trying it if you have read this far.

    Also props to OP for giving in depth detail on every question about this deck, not many posters put in this much effort to help others with the deck they post, so I’m really grateful for that.

    Cheers

    OP=Original Poster*
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  12. Laurier_Ex Ninja master
    Laurier_Ex

    Member

    Thank you for your feedback and I agree on almost everything you said. Seems like you know what you are talking about and the changes suggested make a lot of sense. There are many changes that can be operated to this deck and most of the time it does not makes it worse or better but just makes it having better chances against this or that match-up. I can honestly say that this deck is one of the most flexible when it comes to tech options.


    That being said, I would personally not recommend playing with less than 3 Ninja Boy. It can work I guess but you need to be able to constantly use Ninja Boy so removing a copy can bring issues sometimes from what I have experienced. You want to make sure you have the option of using Tapu-Lele to pull Ninja Boy out after you used 1 copy or 2 hence having 3 copies helps.


    One thing I want to point out about the matchup against Raticate because that is one deck that I get to play against a lot often online; with Magearna-Ex and Comfey, you should be able to win without relying on Glaceon-Ex. Magearna-Ex prevents any effects of attacks as long as you have Rainbow or Prism energy attached so it completly nullifies Raticate attack. So it renders Raticate totally useless and unable to do anything unless they get rid of Magearna-Ex. Also, Comfey on the other hand will prevent any poison from taking you out after Raticate brings you to 1hp so this can also help. If they use Hypnotoxic laser, you just drop Comfey on the bench to remove poison and confusion effects, something Magearna cannot protect you against. The only thing that you need to worry about in that matchup would be Shrine of Punishment without having Magearna supporting on the bench and secondary attackers.


    Finally, as you said and what I just described above in the Raticate matchup proves this, it gets a while to get used to the deck and there are many hidden features and ways to tweak it left and right so mastering it is a long process. Like I said in my last post, even me after playing it for a few years now end up loosing because I make stupid mistakes or forget about something.

    *Finally had the chance to win a game thanks to Stealthy Hood against a Vileplume deck. Most likely the best way to tech in order to counter it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  13. Jack Saunders Aspiring Trainer
    Jack Saunders

    Member

    So I just got back from a local league challenge, and was pretty successful. There were only 6 people, so 3 rounds, and I went 3/0. First matchup was Pikarom, as soon as I flash ray’d, he scooped. My last matchup my opponent bricked, so again not much learning there. My best game was against Zoroark Ratticate, where I won on the last turn of time. The alolan muk is a huge problem, but stealthy hood on the Magearna EX basically won me the game. My opponent didn’t draw too well, but it balanced out with some small, and one huge missplay by me. The game made me want to play 2 stealthy hood, because that card is so good with alolan muk in the format. The Ratticate deck didn’t play any field blower, but did play a Faba and the rattata that discards tools, which can be bad, hence the second stealthy hood. Overall, I try not to attack with Tag teams, because they can faba off a energy if you just have one, then one shot you with Ratticate. A Second Magearna is also not bad, it’s just such a good card in so many matchups. All in all, I think that the Zoro matchup is close to 50/50, usually depending on skill and draw. I would have liked to kill that muk, but couldn’t find the right time to do it. Keldeo GX is also super good in that game.
    On the last turn of the game, he paralyzing gaze me with zorua, but it didn’t paralyze because of Magearna.
    Best tip for beating that deck is going first and getting a sonic volume from Noivern off turn 2, as they only play special energy, and shuts them down completely. I wasn’t able to because if I had used that attack, he could have killed my mewtwo mew the next turn.

    For my list, it’s the same as I posted above, but I could not find a Latias EX in time, so I put in a third ninja boy.
    Btw, game went to time because I miss played so badly mid game. Also I took a while to think, as there are so many options in the deck.
    The missplay was I scramble switched into a Machamp EX with no damage on it, not realizing the damage didn’t switch as well. I wasn’t punished too hard, he missed sky field so he couldn’t attack back, if he did, I could outrage, also Magearna was blocking Ratticate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019 at 10:04 PM
  14. Laurier_Ex Ninja master
    Laurier_Ex

    Member

    Congrats on your win at the event. I am happy that after 3 years of pushing on this engine and testing the idea someone finally thinks its worth the try and succeed with it. If it had not been worth playing i doubt i would still be using it after so long and still enjoy playing it that much. Seems like i can finally share my love of the deck with someone. The deck is not perfect but it can adapt to a lot of situation and include something to counter almost anything.

    Getting around Garbodor and Muk can be painful. Not depending entirely on Mew3 helps because you are a little less dependent on abilities and can avoid playing 3 prize attackers but it can still be very difficult to pull off. Preventing them from evolving into Garbodor or Muk is the first goal because once it sets up, you are slowed down dramatically. Stealthy Hood is definitely a good tool to use and include in more than one copy if these decks are to be expected.

    Honestly I would probably have missed that Stealthy Hood play on Magearna-EX, this is clutch. Not used to playing that tool a lot so this is something I would probably have overseen. Magearna-EX is indeed one big part of the deck and her value is underestimated.

    Latios-EX is useful in a few matchups (Trevenant, Rayquaza-Gx, Mew3 and other decks that mostly play ability reliant attackers) and is a reason why the Ninja Boy engine has a better flexibility than similar toolbox decks. In a Mew3, a Marshadow-Gx or a Mew-Ex toolbox, you cannot include efficiently a card like Latias-Ex, Regirock XY promo, Hoopa SL or Keldeo-GX because while you can copy the attack, unless that pokemon is your attacker, you dont get to benefit from its ability or trait. When V-Max pokemons get released, Mew3 decks might loose some love because they wont be able to copy V-Max pokemon attacks. Ninja boy will still be able to pull the tricks unless those are called something else than basic pokemons which i doubt.

    Finally, I missed your deck list. Where did you post it? I can miss an elephant in a corridor. Lucky my girl friend is there to help me out finding my things when i need them but I will need your help here.
     
  15. Jack Saunders Aspiring Trainer
    Jack Saunders

    Member

    M’y list was basically your original list, with the changes I stated a few posts ago, like adding Noivern and Jirachi GX and stealthy hood, as well as a Colress. I took out Tauros, both prism stadiums and one ninja boy, which I then Re-added because no Latias Ex
     

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