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Expanded Ninja Box (Dragon Archetype)

Discussion in 'PTCG Deck Garage' started by Laurier_Ex, May 12, 2018.

  1. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    "The basic concept of the Ninja Box is to run multiple copies of Ninja Boy in order to manipulate the bench and the active Pokémon."

    After doing a lot of testing with Counter Box decks i decided that it was time i would transition back into my Ninja Box deck and bring up some more fancy stuff. I still cannot believe that i never had a single Mirror Match so far using Ninja Box while this deck still surprises me to this day. It can make quick work of a lot of the current meta decks and is the most flexible deck ever.

    The Gallade archetype provided me with excellent results in the current meta by improving the deck flow and OHKO Zoroark-Gx. The setup is not too hard to achieve granted nothing is prized. Still i wanted to make good use of what i have learned during my testing with Counter Energy and was still hunger for some of those juicy moves i used.

    Dialga Gx really gave me a good vibe related to it's Gx attack and i wanted to exploit it in my Ninja Box deck. In expanded DDE is a thing so i decided that i would make a dragon archetype for Ninja Box.

    Those are the pokémons included in the deck that are Dragon type:

    • Dialga-GX: For the Gx attack and it works very well. I pull this often using Ninja Boy just after using Crystal Ray or Flash Ray. Got a DDE energy and a Ninja Boy in your hand? Timeless-Gx
    • Giratina-EX: Can't attach DCE? yes please because there are so many decks that are DCE reliant
    • Latias-EX: For the Trevenant matchup and the Dragon type so we can attach DDE
    • Latios-EX: For the donk with Muscle Band and Ninja Boy.

    ****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

    ##Pokémon - 17

    * 1 Oranguru SUM 113
    * 2 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
    * 1 Dialga-GX UPR 100
    * 1 Giratina-EX AOR 57
    * 1 Latias-EX PLF 85
    * 1 Latios-EX ROS 58
    * 1 Comfey GRI 93
    * 1 Machamp-EX AOR 90
    * 1 Sudowoodo GRI 66
    * 1 Jolteon-EX GEN 28
    * 1 Magearna-EX STS 110
    * 2 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 60
    * 2 Unown AOR 30
    * 1 Glaceon-EX FCO 20

    ##Trainer Cards - 33

    * 1 Mallow GRI 127
    * 1 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
    * 1 Scramble Switch PLS 129
    * 2 Muscle Band XY 121
    * 1 Korrina FFI 95
    * 1 Fairy Garden FCO 100
    * 3 Ninja Boy STS 103
    * 4 Puzzle of Time BKP 109
    * 4 Ultra Ball FCO 113
    * 1 Float Stone BKT 137
    * 1 Special Charge STS 105
    * 2 Guzma BUS 115
    * 3 VS Seeker ROS 110
    * 1 Field Blower GRI 163
    * 2 Trainers' Mail ROS 92
    * 1 N NVI 101
    * 1 Sky Field ROS 89
    * 3 Pokémon Communication BLW 99

    ##Energy - 10

    * 2 Double Dragon Energy ROS 97
    * 4 Prism Energy NXD 93
    * 4 Double Colorless Energy XY 130

    Total Cards - 60

    ****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

    As you can see this deck as multiple ways to deal with the current meta and can win against most decks. Using Timeless-Gx combined with Ninja Boy allows you to deal 150 dmg and then having the opportunity to pull out either Jolteon-Ex or Glaceon-Ex (using Ninja Boy) and be safe on the next turn with an extra 70 dmg.

    - Important: DDE will be lost if you Ninja Boy from a Dragon type to another type. As people will note i only play 2 DDE for this reason. I want to find those later down the road and not in my opening hand.
    Last edited: May 14, 2018

  2. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    This deck is packed with dynamite ;D

    Not trying this deck out is loosing something ;)

    Ninja Boy is just not another deck, it is a complete different engine with no limits whatsoever regarding the meta you are against. And yet i am only some stranger out there with no proof and no one will ever try it ;D.

    I guess it is a good thing i am alone on this.
  3. Matux Aspiring Trainer


    You can't attack with the same pokemon multiple times in a row if he is 0HKO cause you have only one rescue stretcher, it's pretty inconsistent. You said that it's good against meta decks but the bigger threat of expanded is zoroark/eggs wich goal is to red card + hex each turn. It's an autoloss against it. Garbodor is a strong deck too and it's a bad matchup apparently for you deck.
    Wechselbalg likes this.
  4. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    Machamp and Dialga are one time attackers. You usually will not use them more than one time to attack so Rescue Stretcher will not be used for those most of the time. The purpose of Jolteon-Ex and Glaceon-Ex is to stall but mainly to avoid OHKO. Before they fall you want to Ninja Boy into Machamp-Ex or Dialga-Gx. So Rescue Stretcher should not be required most of the time unless you end up loosing Jolteon-Ex or Glaceon-Ex (or Comfey against a Turbo deck). You are free to play 2 if you want there is space in the deck.

    Regarding Zoroark-Gx with eggs, it is far from an autoloss. I played a game yesterday against it and i lost but i was leading 4 prizes against 2 and a bad N made me loose because i bricked after it and could not find the last energy i needed to end the game. It is true that the deck can get hurt by N and Red Card because it uses stuff like Mallow but dealing with Zoroark-Gx is possible with the deck. When you use Sudowwodo, Zoroark-Gx cannot take a OHKO on Jolteon-Ex or Tapu-Lele can hardly take a OHKO on Glaceon-Ex. When they are damaged, you can use Ninja Boy for either Machamp or Dialga-Gx and take the KO that way. Then Machamp falls and you get Jolteon-Ex or Glaceon-Ex back into play. Another thing, very few decks play Pokemon Ranger right now. If you can setup Giratina-Ex attaching those DCE will completely stop the Zoroark-Gx deck in its trail. Finally, sometyimes sometimes you can be lucky enough to pull the donk with Latios-Ex and end the game before it begins.

    Garbodor is another tricky matchup and it mostly boils down to how well can you setup without using too many items. It is not the best matchup by any means but is not unwinnable. Comfey will prevent Confusion from Espeon-Gx and Magearna will prevent Drampa from discarding your special energies. The deck as a lot of space and has been built to deal with a wide array of decks. If you want to improve a matchup you can definitely tweak a few cards if you like.

    This deck finds ways to win and people strongly underestimate what it can do. The deck is highly flexible meaning that if you want to have a better time against a type of deck you can just adjust for it. There is a lot of tech space in a deck like this and you can add cards to improve certain matchups. Here are a few ideas:

    - Seismitoad-Ex: Turns the autoloss against Sableye into an autowin.
    - Leafeon-Ex with Regirock PRXY: Turns the Wailord from a very hard matchup into an easy one.
    - Leafeon-Ex: Provides OHKO potential against things that are weak to grass notably Lycanrock-Gx.
    - Ralts, Gallade and a candy: Provides better deck flow anbd consistency. Can OHKO Zoroark-Gx and Dark related pokemons.
    - Giratina PRXY: Provides an easier matchup against Greninja and Trevenant decks.

    And this deck beats a lot of rogue decks out there that other decks would probably fail against: Donphan, Accelgor, Volcanion-Ex, Turbo Darkrai, Water box and a lot more. It beats Quad Hoopa and can deal with Sylveon-Gx and Gardevoir-Gx with Magearnar being able to OHKO. It can beat Dusk Mane Necrozma and Ultra Necrozma decks. I cant give you all the numbers regarding %wins against each of those decks but i am playing for above than 50% with the deck. I have won 10 out of my 12 last games with the Gallade BKP version and most of those were against meta decks.

    If you prefer you can grab yourself a Zoroark-Gx with Egg deck and go play the mirror matchup. This still wont give you more than a 50-50 chance of winning against Zoroark-Gx Egg and then you will have to deal with all the fighting decks out there.
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  5. Matux Aspiring Trainer


    I agree with lots of things you said but especially :

    In the Zoroark matchup, you need 2 energy attachment to power up jolteon/glaceon when zoroark need one DCE. You don't have any kind of energy acceleration in your deck (elixir, etc...).
    One of the deck I played most is Zoroark variants (about 400 games if I'm right) and 90% of the time, the draw engine and the consistency of the deck allow your to find easily each turn a guzma, just before you attack. And some decklist have choosen to include Pokemon ranger that counter this gameplan, even if I think it's not that usefull because of the reasons I just told you.

    Garbodor variants are using enhanced hammers, the first Drampa attack and things like that so you'll need to use ressources to be able to maintain the damage lock. And late game, Garbodor is here. So even if you play smart, it's if you're ok with luck, at most, a 50/50 matchup. But if you do any mistake or you draw bad (and it's easy under garbotoxin lock) at any moment, the matchup is for Garbodor I think. I can't tell too much more than theory, because I didn't play the deck that much anyway.
  6. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    The thing is, sure it requires 2 turn attachment on Jolteon-Ex or Glaceon-Ex but Zoroark-Gx cannot OHKO either of them (with Sudowoodo) so you are able to power up before being OHKO and able to take down Zoroark-Gx on the turn after with Ninja Boy into Machamp or Dialga-Gx if needed. Keeping up is the hard part but do not forget a thing: using Timeless-Gx allows you to attach another energy since you play twice in a row. This works as a sort of energy acceleration. One last thing, Zoro-eggs usually does not play anything else than attackers with abilities (at least i think) so Latias-Ex can also be used sometimes to buy time or counter the deck. It is not as reliant since most decks play Hex Maniac but can definitely help sometimes.

    Regarding Garbodor, it is a hard matchup for most meta decks. The way to tackle the matchup is very similar with this deck than with any other decks. Hammers can definitely hurt. As stated, there are ways to make the deck stronger against certain matchups. Here, including a Mewtwo XY Evo for exemple would help.
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
    Matux likes this.
  7. noodle Aspiring Trainer


    they'll just Hex and bench eggs to kill through Sudowoodo

    how can this deck succeed against e hammer by the way? most attackers need 2 attachments to work and barely any way to draw
    also why 2 rainbow energy instead of all prism? (if for Machamp I wouldn't say a single damage counter is worth risking an easier knock-out)
    Wechselbalg likes this.
  8. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    I never said that the Zoroark-Gx player did not have a response, of course they do else they would not be top meta decks. The matchup can still be won nevertheless with an acceptable margin. Not the easiest matchup by any means but it is winnable if you do not brick. If it is Zoroark you want to counter you can definitely keep a Gallade line as i did in my other deck.

    Regarding Rainbow and Prism you use either you like most. I probably ended up copying another archetype to create this one and i needed Rainbow energy because i had an evolved pokemon included i guess. All prism here would be better you are right since i do not include evolved pokémon. I will update list.

    Regarding energy problems there is Shining Mew and Regirock PRXY i used to address this aspect before. E hammer can hurt the deck but most decks do not play more than 1 E Hammer. You could just tech in a Tauros-Gx, i decided not because of it's weakness. The deck has its pros and cons and is geared in a way it will have some bad matchups. For exemple to win against Wailord-Ex you would need both Leafeon-Ex and Regirock PRXY in a Ninja Box unless you are blessed. All choices cost something but in a deck like this you can easily tweak for the decks you want to face.

    Granted i want to beat Zoroark-Gx more i will tech in a Gallade BKP line and trade stadiums for Parallel City instead or something along those line. But beating this type of deck requires more investment. For the sake of testing Dialga-Gx as a viable option for the deck i decided to include a few more Dragon Pokémon in the testing (seeing how attaching DDE goes since you need a Dragon type to do so) but after testing these can easily be replaced. You could just opt for a single DDE in the deck with Dialga-Gx just to keep the option and trade Giratina-Ex, Latias-Ex and Latios-Ex for something else (the Gallade line with a Mewtwo XY for exemple). For PTCGO the current list works fine because the diversity of deck played there is higher than IRL so sometimes having a worse matchup against a certain deck is better than loosing to a few other less meta decks which would otherwise wreck you.

    The engine of this deck runs completely differently than the classic "Brigette/Tapu Lele-Gx" with the classic 8 draw supporters. The deck aims to setup through using Ninja Boy and Mallow coupled with Shaymin/Unwon/Oranguru hence why N and Red card can hurt the deck. Ninja Boy with Unown allows you to always make sure you have bench space and is used to deny your opponent from winning with Guzma and Lysandre. The deck as hidden draw mechanism. Recycling Shaymin with Ninja Boy pulls you a lot of cards. Ninja Boy in this deck is used as a sort of draw supporter. People don't quite see that. You often recycle 1-3 Shaymins per game. You make Sudowoodo, Unown, Oranguru and Comfey's out of your benched Shaymins and use them again. For Ninja Boy to work you need your pokémon in your draw pile. This is why you need to use Mallow. You do not want to deplete your deck with Sycamore, you want the pokémon to stay in your draw pile. You cannot fully understand the draw extend of this deck without trying it. That is the mistake everyone does.

    Granted all these info i gave you, you can try and tweak the list as you wish. My goal in developing Ninja Box and sharing it to the community was to share with everyone a flexible engine (different from what people are used to) that would be able to adapt to the ever changing meta and would provide good win%. I made many archetypes of the Ninja Box deck that have proved to be very efficient from Steam Siege and forward (some expansion better than others). Right now, my Gallade Archetype proved itself very effective in the current meta state. Take a closer look at the deck, see how it is so different from most competitive decks right now. Then go test it and you will probably be surprised given you played enough time to understand how it works because this deck as a high lurning curve.
  9. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    Sure it's not Zoroark-Gx with Eggs. We all know how Zoroeggs is consistent and can reach 210dmg fairly easily with all it's draw capability. We could very well see exeggcute get banned for that manner. We could as well see Puzzle of Time or Sky Field being banned who knows. And if you ask me it sucks. Zoroark-Gx should never have been printed the way it is if you want to know what i think of the card. They gave it way too much utility and power and it kills deck diversity. 210hp?, 2 cards per turn? Up to 210dmg? I got 4 copies of Zoroark and i am not even playing them. I hate that Pokémon that much. Id rather die trying to beat a Zoroark-Gx than accept to take the Zoro train.

    Ninja Box is not consistent has Zoroark-Gx of course but the decks core has a lot of very good matchup and is fairly consistent. Getting a Tapu Lele-Gx out and a Shaymin-Ex is frankly not that hard (Ultra Ball and Pokemon Communication) and it gives you draw into Mallow giving you what you are missing.

    To win against Zoroark you need a good hand but the matchup is not an autoloss as you think. You can still run the Ninja Boy engine and win against Zoroark-Gx with eggs. Swap a few cards around to help with the matchup if that is what you want. The engine gives you this flexibility. Not as straight forward as a Zoroegg deck to play but certainly more gratifying. You need to accept that sometimes one of the cards you need will be priced.

    The core of this deck takes care of a lot of decks on the go:

    - Comfey makes you almost auto win against decks that rely on status. (Helps against Darkrai-Gx, Hypno-Laser, Espeon-Gx)
    - Jolteon-Ex beats every deck that relies solely on basic attackers*.
    - Glaceon-Ex beats every deck that relies solely on evolved attackers*.
    - Machamp-Ex helps against decks that play the 2HKO. Synergies with Comfey so that you are not confused after using Steaming Mad. Synergies with Jolteon-Ex and Glaceon-Ex since they prevent the OHKO and makes for the setup.

    *Unless they play Pokemon Ranger.

    Then you can tech whatever you like for the other Pokémons (i would recommend to keep a 2 Shaymin-Ex, Unown and Tapu Lele):

    - A specific weakness? (Diancie-Ex against Ultra Necrozma? Magearna-Ex against Gardevoir-Gx and Drampa-Gx?)
    - A specific counter? (Giratina PRXY against Greninja)
    - A Gx attack? (Pheromosa-Gx, Tauros-Gx, Dialga-Gx,...)

    If we want to increase the odds of winning against a Zoroark-Gx we can swap a few cards in the deck. I will try to illustrate this by an exemple. Notice that some Pokemons I will be using in this scenario may differ from the list i posted but you will get the basic idea.

    *Consider i replaced all Dragon types except for Dialga-Gx in the deck for a thin Gallade line and a Tyrantrum-Ex in order to provide more fire power.

    Player 1: Zoroark-Gx
    Player 2: Ninja Box

    Turn 1:
    - Player 1 charges up a Zorua with DCE and sets the bench with Brigette.
    - Player 2 puts a Rainbow energy on a Sudowoodo on the bench while Comfey is in the active.
    Turn 2:
    - Player 1 charges another Zorua and sends Zoroark-Gx in the active. He takes a prize card.
    - Player 2 sends Sudowoodo in the active and attaches a DCE on it. Benches Ralts. Ninja Boy into Glaceon-Ex and hits Zoroark for 70 dmg.

    Turn 3 is where it gets tricky. Will Zoroark-Gx try to play around Glaceon-Ex and kill Ralts or attach a DCE on Tapu Lele and attack? Depends what he can draw into but the immediate treat is Glaceon-Ex so lets assume that he sends Tapu-Lele out in the active to attack Glaceon-Ex...

    Turn 3:
    - Player 1 charges Tapu-Lele Gx and sends it in the active with a Choice Band. Hits Glaceon-Ex for 130dmg.
    -Player 2 uses Ninja Boy onto Glaceon-Ex to get Dialga-Gx out. Attaches a Muscle Band and a DDE and uses Timeless-Gx to take 2 prizes (170Dmg).

    Player 2 plays again due to Timeless-Gx. And here there are plenty of tricks to use in order to achieve a OHKO on a Zoroark-Gx if he is in the active. If you have Gallade all set up you can use Guzma to pull Zoroark-Gx and OHKO him on the bench. If Zoroark is in the active you can Ninja Boy into Machamp-Ex and get the OHKO there. You could play Tyrantrum-Ex hit for 210dmg with a Muscle band and OHKO a Zoroark-Gx with Ninja Boy again. From there, you are leading the prize trade and have a response to Zoroark-Gx. You have a Scramble switch in case you need to safeguard some energies and a Gallade almost ready to fight.

    I hope people can see how this deck works. It can just adapt to many scenarios granted you play a card or another. The core of the deck (Machamp, Comfey, Jolteon-Ex and Glaceon-EX with Ninja Boy) allows it to prevail against a lot of decks. The game is not as easy to play as with Zoroeggs but this deck is very rewarding and it's adaptability makes it so that this deck will always be able to sustain itself through time unlike most other decks.

    Finally i know that this deck seen from someone very familiar with the game will appear to be lacking draw power. Well this is not the case. While this is not a deck that turns out to be as consistent as a Zoroark-Gx deck of course, it is still very consistent (Ultra Balls, Trainers Mail and Pokemon Communication). And what people do not see is that Ninja Boy acts as a Draw supporter in this deck. For exemple:

    You have a Shaymin-Ex on the bench and you have Ninja Boy. Comfey and Pokemon Communication in your hand. If you Ninja Boy the Shaymin you will be able to use Pokemon Communication to get the same Shaymin out and draw for up to 6 cards. But that is not all! While doing so, you turned that useless Shaymin on the bench into a Ralts, a Comfey, a Oranguru, a Unown, a Mr Mime maybe or a Giratina XYPR, you decide.

    All in all it makes me kinda sad to see that i am very sold on an idea and that most people do not get the idea and just pass on it because it is not conform to deck building standards. Some people challenged the deck and i could always pull a trick but even after beating the crap out of them they would not even accept this deck as a reality. And it's up there with Turbo Darkrai and the others. The fact of the matter is that when you go all in on the Ninja Boy supporter you can actually profit from the fact that Ninja Boy is way more than meets the eye. Bench manipulation, draw, bench support, retreat, Ninja Boy can take care of it all. You just need to draw with Shaymin Oranguru and Unown using Ninja Boy and Mallow to do so.

    Can't someone just test the deck and give it a try? All i am asking is a serious advice on the deck. All i had so far is just a few people challenging me (with not much success) and some others saying it's bad when they had no clue how the deck works.
  10. noodle Aspiring Trainer


    Ya know what? I'll build it, but if I do will you promise to listen to the criticisms? Because there really are some serious issues with the deck that I can guarantee will cause problems.

    What all did you change from the initial list? I've got some friends irl with ZoroEggs and such I can play against.
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  11. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    I will accept the critism thats the whole point of having other people than me test it. Zoroark-Gx will always be a hard matchup this deck is no exception so dont base your critism over this only matchup if you dont mind.

    For the list, i would recommend you to start from my Gallade list version you will find in this post.
  12. noodle Aspiring Trainer


    Alrighty then - got a lot to say.
    I tested both this dragon list and the more fighting centric one you linked, and unfortunately lost nearly every game (won one against standard Ultra Necrozma with some really good draws, but lost the rest of the series). Some of the Zoro variants I played were admittedly standard, but I just couldn't keep up with their draw power when there's so few options in the deck to do so. Even when attempting to reuse Shaymin, it was super hard to find time to Ninja Boy them away while setting up plays for the next turn or getting out of problematic situations. Drawing into the right kind of energy is extremely difficult and a 1 of Mallow doesn't really help all that much since you either need a way to get/use her, and either a Shaymin + spot for it or a tiny hand for Instruct. All in all, I believe I played at least 15 matches against 4 different decks in total (ZoroEggs, Sable/Garb, Necro/Malamar, and Zoro/Garb [would consider this the worst matchup]).

    We did make some edits and sadly only got to play one game so far, but it drew very well and beat ZoroEggs.

    Pokemon - 14
    x1 Oranguru
    x1 Sudowoodo
    x1 Regirock
    x1 Magearna EX
    x1 Jolteon EX
    x1 Glaceon EX
    x2 Seismitoad EX
    x2 Shaymin EX
    x2 Tapu Lele GX
    x2 Gallade

    Trainers - 38
    x1 Counter Catcher (flex spot)
    x1 Computer Search
    x2 Rescue Stretcher
    x2 Field Blower
    x2 Choice Band
    x2 Float Stone
    x3 Battle Compressor
    x3 Enhanced Hammer
    x4 Ultra Ball
    x4 Trainer's Mail
    x4 VS Seeker
    x1 Hex Maniac
    x1 Colress
    x1 Guzma
    x1 Cynthia
    x2 N
    x2 Ninja Boy
    x2 Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick

    Energy - 8
    x4 Prism Energy
    x4 Double Colorless Energy

    And the breakdown -
    We decided on keeping the Gallade around because it is very good, but the 1-0-1 line just is not consistent enough to get it out. Instead we put in some Maxie's and Battle Compressors to get him going. Increased the amount of thinning and consistency cards in order to use him more often and just dig deeper into the deck. It allows for stronger Shaymin/Oranguru plays as well. Trimmed off some of the more situational Pokemon since Machamp can get a KO but will basically always lose your energy when revenge killed. Latias gets Hexed too easily as Zoro is likely playing her anyway. Added in more Seismitoad as a general easy to build lock attacker, especially if one of the Eeveelutions you need are prized you have options.
    Beefed up the supporter lines overall, while cutting down to 2 Ninja boy (essentially the same count, but added in a 4th VS Seeker instead for more versatile plays) as you can Battle Compressor a Ninja Boy, Gallade, and Maxie to set up Seeker plays or just to thin out unnecessary cards so you won't draw them (maybe Magearna when there's no effects or Glaceon against basics). 1 Colress and 1 Hex are essential for Zoro to swing that more into your favor, though of course be safe when Hexing with Sudowoodo since you can help out their damage. 4th Ultra Ball is necessary for better thinning and search power.
    Enhanced Hammer was also added to help with Buzz, Drampa, and Zoro to buy some time (and make them waste resources) as you power up. With this deck generally needing 2 manual attaches you need to be able to buy time.
    Energy lines were thinned a bit to make space, but you should be able to get into them often enough since you can swap into the correct attacker rather than digging to build a second one as most decks need to.
    Computer Search as the Ace Spec of choice. I never got to use scramble switch because I was usually setting up to Ninja Boy/didn't have it/had nothing good benched/etc. Comp Search allows to search for special energy that's needed, thin the hand for Maxie, dig up a necessary supporter, or just work as a 5th Ultra Ball. It's got so much versatility that there's rarely a reason to pick any other.

    I know it's not pure Ninja Box, but I would definitely say to give it a try since you can still pull off some really cool plays while having more options for set-up and draw power. One very big issue in the deck is that nothing can KO without weakness and even that's a stretch, but with the Hammers and Eeveelutions hopefully you can establish a lock long enough to get ahead.
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
    CrownAxe likes this.
  13. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    Thanks for the insights i appreciate the time you took in order to test the deck out.

    If i understand correctly you played 15 games against the decks you listed (ZoroEggs, Sable/Garb, Necro/Malamar, and Zoro/Garb). I agree with you that those are the hardest matchups for the deck except for Necro/Malamar which is in favor of Ninja Box unless they include Mewtwo-Gx. While you can test game after game against the same deck i play on TCGO and get to play against a miriad of different decks so i am less focusing on those and having a more global approach.

    If you are looking to counter those specific decks maybe try using 3xHoopa SL instead. It would play a role similar to the Enhanced Hammers played in your list (slowing the pace of the game) but without the downside of having them blocking your deck like Enhanced Hammer do when you cannot use them. I have not tried it yet since i just got my hands on 3 copies this week but it fits in the concept and can slow the pace of the game drastically. It will force lots of ressource out of your opponents deck. I have not played "Quad Hoopa" in expanded so i am not really aware of the win% but i think it is worth testing (maybe someone who plays Quad Hoopa could tell us maybe i am totally wrong). The Zoroark-Egg deck needs to basically use Hex Maniac 6 times?

    And against Garb if you can setup Hoopa without throwing too many items you can definitely beat the deck. Magearna protects against Drampa if needed and Comfey against confusion. Hoopa has psychic resistance and this could make the difference in the end. As long as Garbodor does not 1 shot you i guess you could consider yourselff having a decent chance of winning. Then, maybe see if you cannot use FFB instead of Choice Band and maybe had a Filed Blower.

    Dismissing the decks core engine is rude (your list still is very legit don't get me wrong). I do not think that it is wise to turn 180 degrees with the deck in order to deal with those 4 decks. I think you should experiment a bit more before completely putting it aside for something that looks completely different. I would have honestly prefered that you stick with the decks core and jungle around it to make your suggestions. The changes are way too drastic and they give totally something else. Something good (to some extend) but something totally different.

    I played Maxie's and Archie's variant before. It works to some extend but the concept does not go hand in hand with the Ninja Boy concept. I played Ninja Box for the past year or so while teching it one way or the other and i can tell you that the initial setup is rather consistent if you use my list. Ninja Box will not run through your deck like Zoroark-Gx will if that is what you mean by being consistent but it usually gets you where you need to be by the 2nd turn. Having a key card prized can hurt but you have to deal with it.

    While the list you provided will help with the deck flow mid and late game it does not guarantee that you will have both the DCE and the Rainbow by turn 2 in order to use Crystal or Flash Ray. Access to the energy is a big thing and impacts the consistency with which you will effectively be able to establish a stall by the 2nd turn if this is what you need in order to win. The purpose of running Mallow with friends is to nail those energies quickly and get going. I disagree with you and i think this is actually big. It is a very good supporter for the first turn or when things are under control. Your list will naturally be more effective in getting Gallade out but will suffer much if you cannot quickly pull out Maxie. I have tested your deck a bit and you will not pull Maxie as often as you would like and when you don't, it is really hard to recover. Granted you can pull Maxie quickly you then have to constantly hit Energies.

    Computer Search will be better in your list, Scramble Switch is to my experience better in a Ninja Box. It will sometimes make you pull big moves and can also save some of your energies.
  14. noodle Aspiring Trainer


    No, I'm not saying I expect it to draw like Zoro does, but you're completely dismissing my point that the deck is not consistent. 2 Shaymin with relatively no ways to deck thin, lack of max Seekers/Ultra Ball, way too many useless Pokemon clogging up hand space and draws, lack of draw supporters all mean that you are not going to draw what you need. Ever. And I didn't.
    I didn't change the deck to counter those decks -- I changed it because it simply didn't do anything 90% of my draws.

    Tbh I think it's rude too to say I dismissed the Ninja Boy aspect when all I did was cut down from 3 to 2 while adding in the 4th seeker, so it's essentially the same count (especially with Battle Compressor + Seeker being a Lele with no bench slot). Slimming the Pokemon barely hinders the plays as most of the ones cut are already dead weight in a huge majority of games.
    Adding the Maxie's is purely to get Gallade because 1-0-1 is never gonna work. With it you're not supposed to run yourself out of resources if you know you'll miss the opportunity and the Gallade is non-necessary to access at the end of the day, seeing as the focus is on Ninja Boy still.

    Quad Hoopa is also terrible in expanded and doesn't stall near as much as you're expecting. Also auto-loses Garb as they turn off the immunity.

    You've asked for advice and I even played the list as you requested, but it's pretty obvious that you don't want criticism at all because everything you said shows you don't want to change a single card. Mallow under that engine will only work if you're going against other decks that draw slow like you do, I'm sorry.

    Good luck with the deck, man, but I never see it working in this iteration at anything outside of extremely casual play.
    CrownAxe and gumball51321 like this.
  15. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    I heard you on that and after a year playing i am telling you it is consistent as far as it has to be and it is during the 1st stage of the game. With a sample size of 15 games and no knowledge of the deck you cant just come and say it is not consistent. You studied statistics? Regarding max Seekers/Ultra Ball counts i think you are missing something. First of all, i play 3 VS seeker because it helps the deck with the start up. Believe it or not but it happens that you end up having 3 VS seekers in your first hand. Removing one is one less item making you brick on your first hand. It actually helps with consistency. Regarding Ultra Balls, it<s not a max count but i play 3 Pokemon Communication. These are an addition that most deck do not even have. Those useless pokemon clogging up hand has you say interact perfectly with Pokemon Communication and helps it be more consistent not less. You got 6 cards to get out your Shaymins and Tapu Leles instead of 4 and you complain about 1 missing Ultra Ball?

    I played your list like 10 times and i barely ever used Ninja Boy at all. It made me loose more than it helped me since i got stuck with it in my hand and could not Maxie a couple of times because of it. The deck is lest consistent for getting the stall going since you play way more energies and have no good ways of finding it when you need it. Your list is more about getting Gallade out than anything else. Also, by removing Unown you increase your chances for your opponent to win with Guzma, something you totally want to avoid when stalling is one of your win conditions. You expose your Shaymins and your opponents take advantage of it.

    The Ninja Box does not rely solely on getting out Gallade. Your list puts a lot of cards just to get out Gallade and this hurts it elsewhere. 1-0-1 eventually works somewhere during the game and is very easy to get out once Ralts is benched since a simple Korrina will get both Gallade and the Candy for you.

    Quad Hoopa might be terrible in expanded but this is not quite Quad Hoopa so comparing the two is irrelevant without trying it out. You are making a lot of assumptions amd that is not very professional.

    I asked for advice about a deck, you gave me something totally different. It is has if i wanted you to help me with a Volcanion deck list and you gave me back a Ho-oH Gx list. I cannot stress that enough and i will say it one more time, you do not want to draw quickly in this deck when mid and late game hits. You totally do not want to. I play a single copy of Mallow for a reason and it is to quickly get out the energy and establish stall early. Mallow is not in the deck so you play it every turn. And why focusing so much on a single card copy? Mallow is not hurting the deck as you might think.

    I will ask, how is this Maxie list more consistent than the Gallade list i gave you tell me? I mean as i said before after you setup Gallade sure it is more consistent but you basically loose if you do not setup Gallade real quick as you got no ways to dig properly for your energies if Gallade is not out. Enhanced hammer are nice but they brick your deck more often than not. I played your list and barely ever got to use Ninja Boy at all. While your list is consistent with Gallade out it is completly Garbage without it. Consistency applies to multiple facets of the game and you seem to completely forget that.
  16. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    I tested over the course of 10 games with both lists. Only looked at the setup for the 3 first turns. The sample is still too little to draw conclusions but your deck did not setup better than mine in nearly every aspect apart from turn 1 Gallade.

    For your list the initial setup score is determined by seeing how well you can setup Gallade and alternatively Jolteon-Ex, Glaceon-Ex and Seismitoad.

    Here is how it went for me over the course of 10 games:

    2x Pulled the Maxie ball trick on the 1st turn and got going very quickly.
    4x I could not Maxie but could setup either Jolteon-Ex or Glaceon-Ex by the end of the 2nd turn
    1x I could only setup a Seismitoad
    3x I failed setting up anything good (1 time i had 2 Gallade and 2 Rainbow prized and a Shaymin in the active so yeah)

    Ninja Box usually will not get Gallade out before the third turn without you having a good pokemon in the active to start with because most of the time instead of doing Korrina on your second turn you will usually have to use Ninja Boy to get a proper pokemon in the active. That being said, here is how it basically went with my list:

    4x I could bench Gallade on my second turn (1x with Jolteon or Glaceon in the active and ready, 2x with Tauros in the active and ready and a third with a Sudowoodo stuck in the active but energy ready on the bench)
    4x I had Jolteon-Ex or Glaceon-Ex in the active and ready. I could only get Gallade out by turn 3 2 times out of those 4 games because of prizing.
    1x I could only get Tauros ready by the second turn (could not get DCE but only 2x Rainbow). Gallade was out by the 3rd turn.
    1x I had a very poor hand and could not setup properly by the end of the second turn.

    So regarding initial setup i do not see how your list gives better consistency as i stated before. The deck in its current state might not provide better results against Zoro-Eggs but it has nothing to do with early setup consistency whatsoever. And if you look closely, i could setup Gallade by turn 3 in most of my games while you stated it was never going to work.

    You complained about consistency, dropped the whole thing for a completely different deck and claimed it was more consistent while it obviously is not. You would have been better off dropping a pokemon or two from the list i gave you and add 1 more Ultra Ball and Pokemon Communication and it would already had given way better results in regards to consistency than your list. There was literally no point in dropping all the concept for Maxie unless you only wanted to improve your win% against the few top meta decks you listed. Consistency was a really bad excuse to drop the concept as i could show you with the testings i have made.
  17. gumball51321 *thumbs up*


    I'll throw in my 2 cents. It only takes a small handful of games to consistency check the deck. 15 games is way more than I'd be willing to play, because I'm sick of the deck after 5. It doesn't have the time to do what the strategy is and keep pace with the opponent. You don't have time to set an attacker up(manually), draw cards, and ninja boy Shaymin into Unown and discard them. The deck tries to do way too much and ends up falling apart. 2 Lele is too much for only 1 draw supporter, and Shaymin/Unown is too little of a draw engine to work with.
    Not to mention all of your attackers are one-ofs, so prizing any of them in a difficult matchup or getting knocked out means you sit there and lose.

    The biggest of the many problems with this deck is that it loses to any good player. Period.
    Not to mention the inevitable autolosses to Buzzwole, Zoroark, Drampa Garb, Whales and Sylveon. I know how much you love this deck, but @noodle is totally right.
    I can't say anything that wasn't said here. We aren't shutting on your deck because "we don't want to give it a chance", we're telling you the truth, and the truth hurts. It's not consistent, it doesn't hit numbers, it's not fast, and it has little to no strategy. You can tell us we don't hit the skill ceiling all you want(which you have said to people in the past on one of these posts), but if you can't handle what you know people say over and over(and have said), then it might be best just to not post more Ninja box lists. It sounds like it will be in everyone's best interest.
    Matux, PlatinumDude, noodle and 2 others like this.
  18. Laurier_Ex Ninja master



    You guys really think i would still be playing a deck after a year if it was as bad as you say? Seriously? This Dragon version is not optimal by any means but the Gallade BKP one has proven to be very effective. I got 4 Zoroark-Gx and 4 Tapu Lele Gx and you still seriously think id just play a deck like this if it was that bad? This deck steamrolled just about every deck back when Steam Engine was released. Pokemon Ranger was played more often back then but it was able to counter anything except a few decks like Xerneas Break. It lost a bit of it's power moving SM on but it is still very far from being half has bad as you say.

    I just posted results regarding the setup and consistency, is there something i did wrong so you guys still don't quite understand? It is consistent. Unlike other decks you do not want to draw until you hit the bottom of your deck. You usually end the game with 20 or so cards in your deck most of the time and that is wanted because you need the pokemons in your deck to Ninja Boy. I said this multiple times and people are still wondering why this deck has fewer supporter counts. One of the biggest issue i had with the deck before was ending up having the pokemon i wanted to Ninja Boy into in my hands. This is why you need a way to send pokemons back into your deck (Pokemon Communication and Rescue Stretcher). Of course havign a prize card you need sucks but that will only happen 10% of the time (if you exclude tha Gallade line) and this does not mean it's an autoloss, the deck still has many tricks.

    Honestly it does not have what it takes to be played competitively in this current meta state but it still beats more than 50% of the Tier 1-2-3 decks right now and with a good margin. If you do not believe me come on PTCGO and test it against me. All people who did lost more than they win so far. Not saying you would loose as them but thats the reality so far. I have beaten a guy 2 out of 3 times with this deck against Turbo Darkrai and he still letf saying the deck was crap. I understand people to be suspicious because this is far from the looks of a standard deck but it works and very well. I got a win percentage easily over 60% and probably over 65% over the course of hundreds of games (i am pretty sure i played more than 500 hundred games with this concept). You guys just played 5 games and say its total garbage, i mean come on. You will not convince me that this deck is not worth it in its current form. As stated it will not overcome this meta in this current state but it is far from being garbage.

    The Gallade deck version actually has a fairly good matchup against Buzzwole. Jolteon up and running and Guzma against the Rockruff can work pretty well and win the match more often than not. It also probably has near 50% win against Sylveon-Gx. Sylveon-Gx more often than not will struggle to bench a 2nd pokemon before using Ribbon and you often end up just Ninja Boy into Magearna on the second turn for a OHKO on Sylveon-Gx and the win. Add a Regirock XYPR and then you can make sure youre energy does not get discarded before you make your move. It wins against some Zoroark variants. Zoropod is actually not that bad of a matchup for the deck. Drampa is rough but you can tech in some cards to help. Comfey, Magearna, Glaceon-Ex and Oranguru with ressource management can help raise the win%. Whales can be dealth with if you include Leafeon-Ex and Regirock. Of course you cannot tech everything into the deck but it has ways to deal with those matchups. Zoroeggs, ZoroMuk and Zorogarb are very hard to handle if not nearly impossible but it does not mean that next release won't bring a card you can tech for those. Altaria-Gx for exemple is a card that should be meta defining and bring some trouble to those top decks you can hardly handle. Not the best for such a deck since it deals better with basic pokemon but it could be worth trying it out.

    While most of you test togheter IRL i don't so it is harder to evaluate win rates against the decks but i can positively say that it can beat over 90% of the decks in the expanded format and it can probably have a near autowin against 50% of those decks. There are very few matchup that leaves you with no options to counter it. Zerneas Break is one of the decks that i could never find a way to counter efficiently but that is one of the few old decks i remember having Hardcore problems against. The current few top meta decks right now are also very hard to deal with as i already mentionned but apart from that other matchups are manageable.

    Saying it loses to any good player is something i already heard from people. They claimed i was playing against random newbs on PTCGO and that this was the reason why i was winning. Guess what, those people tried me out and got their ___ wiped clean. They would still not admit the deck was decent tho...

    Will all due respect, all you are saying is totally not true. You guys clearly don't have a clue how it's played and blame it on consistency. While most decks need an attacker out and energy every turn or so is because their active pokemon gets KOed each 1-2 turn or so. When you successfully stall, you do not have the same pressure in this regard. And in regards to strategy, this could not be more far from the truth. This deck is not straight forward as other decks. You need to think much more because there is so many strategy involved in fact and every matchup is played differently.

    Finally, the only thing i will agree on is that this should be my last post regarding Ninja Box, and maybe my last post ever on Pokebeach. I am done. All this just shows how people can't think outside the box, have no clue whatsoever how this deck works and won't give it a try because my name is not Andrew Mahone. And no, playing a deck 5 times or so is not what i would call give it a try. I am not shy on taking anyone on with the deck whenever. So if you still think it is that bad you are welcome to duel me on PTCGO. As i said, i won against everyone that came to PTCGO and took the deck head on. You want videos of me playing the deck against someone playing a top deck without making a mistake? Give me your Email and i will send you as many vids as you want of me playing the deck.
  19. gumball51321 *thumbs up*


    Ninja boy-ing a bunch of Pokemon around isn't a strategy. I played the deck exactly how it's supposed to. I brought out specific Pokemon for specific matchups, but with no way to thin the deck and 1 draw supporter, you are relying on pure luck to draw your Energy. Other than mill decks, I have all of that built on TCGO. I can arrange some sort of match with any of Buzzroc, Zoro, or Drampa Garb. I didn't lose the games with the deck just because of consistency. I lost because I got completely outpaced by my opponent being able to set up faster every. single. time. The only thing I liked about the deck was Machamp/Comfey. And that combo only worked against my opponents who were dead drawing.
    I can play with Buzzroc, Lon Zoro, Drampa Garb, Turbo Turtles, Lucario/Lando, Dusk Mane/Bronzong. Your choice. We can schedule a time. Best 2 of 3, disconnects are game losses, loser chooses to go first or second. If I lose, I'll give you a full art Buzzwole. Ladyoshalott. Add me.
  20. Laurier_Ex Ninja master


    You know what they say, actions speak louder than words. I will glady play against you and abide by your rules. You want me to play the exact list i have posted or is there flexibility in regards to card inclusions? If i was to rate the decks you listed in order from the best to worst matchup for Ninja Box with deck flexibility i would probably say:

    1. Buzzroc
    2. Turbo Turtles
    3. Lucario/Lando
    4. Dusk Mane/Bronzong
    5. Drampa Garb
    6. Lon Zoro

    I think the first 4 decks would be pretty similar in terms of win%. Ninja Box would most likely be below 50% win rate against Drampa Garb and Lon Zoro. I think i could probably raise the Drampa Garb matchup to a near 50% with few inclusions. This would require more testing because it falls in a different category than the others in terms of gameplay and requires a different approach. Same goes with Lon Zoro but i think it would be harder to raise the win% against this deck in the current meta state.

    In regards to me choosing what deck you should play that just seems unfair. Choose the one you want now that you have a better idea of which would have the best matchup. Just know that i am very busy right now with work/family/projects so i don't have much time to test around (my wifes pregnant and due in 1-2 weeks). AFK from home except on weekends so i can only play on Friday and Saturday nights (usually between 9pm-12pm eastern time). This means that if you play Drampa Garb or Lon Zoro just know that i won't be as sharp against them as i would against the other 4 decks you mentioned.

    You can add me on PTCGO i have the same user name as on Pokebeach (whats your user name?). When we both get to be online at the same time we can make a clash just be aware my playtime right now is as low as it can get. About that FA Buzzwole it is really kind of you but you probably need it more than i do so no need for that. I would suggest something else instead:

    - If you loose you will make the "post of shame". Explain how you lost to the "unconsistent" Ninja Box.
    - If i get destroyed ill just say GG and never post on Pokebeach again.

    I did not lost yet to people claiming the deck was junk and challenging me. I know very well that luck can't always be on my side and that you are a very talented player so it might just be my Waterloo. Still, I would rather see you pulling it off than anyone else because i can honestly say i respect you more than any other PTCG player i got to know.

    I will see you online.

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