Discussion New Tier List After Cosmic Eclipse

The Almighty Bidoof

Just your everyday MtF trans Bidoof worshipper
Member
Seems like the 2 Sky Pillar wouldn't be enough to stop Malamar. Most lists I have seem to run 4 stadiums (usually now 3 viridian and 1 shrine of punishment). They could just bump the 2 and go in with esp/deo and mew. Doesn't seem like 2 stadium is enough to stop that as Malamar is pretty good and thinning to get to the pieces it needs. I would imagine the lists playing 2 mew pose a problem too as most people just spread it around to all the pidgeys without taking a knockout and then swoop in with esp/deo for one big swing so they don't turn on Lt. Surge.
Lusamine gives me infinite Sky Pillars
 

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
Lusamine gives me infinite Sky Pillars

Question:

I do not know how good Malamar decks currently are or are not, nor do I know much about Doll Stall...

...but even with "infinite" Sky Pillars, what matters is it being discarded the turn your opponent can smack your Bench, and/or that damage accumulating until it mattered. Neither Mew nor Sky Pillar protect from Abilities, right?
 

jamashawalker

Ikouze!
Member
Please correct me on the doll stall/pidgeotto control vs Malamar matchup....

Couldn't Malamar just continually KO their own Giratina till the opponent is on their three prize turn for the new Baby Blacephelon to come and start spreading 12 damage counters. Is there any tech other than Sky Pillar, which isn't %100 reliable, to stop this strategy?


Towards ADP being tier 1. At the moment, I would say tier 1.5. It is proving to be a huge threat in the metagame but I also believe we haven't adjusted to it yet. It's mostly carried out by KeldeoSwell combo. I see some people on the PTCGO ladder teching in Faba+ Power plant just to deal with this combo, but even that hasn't proven to be a reliable option. I've been having a ton of fun playing with it and I strongly want to put it at a tier 1 deck. But I also recognize the PTCGO ladder is going through a "new toy" phase. So once the metagame has adjusted we shall see.

Lastly, if you aren't putting that steel tech into your ADP list you're just setting yourself up for failure against Gardeon :p KeldeoSwell can only get you so far in that matchup
 

Kenatta_tcg

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Please correct me on the doll stall/pidgeotto control vs Malamar matchup....

Couldn't Malamar just continually KO their own Giratina till the opponent is on their three prize turn for the new Baby Blacephelon to come and start spreading 12 damage counters. Is there any tech other than Sky Pillar, which isn't %100 reliable, to stop this strategy?


Towards ADP being tier 1. At the moment, I would say tier 1.5. It is proving to be a huge threat in the metagame but I also believe we haven't adjusted to it yet. It's mostly carried out by KeldeoSwell combo. I see some people on the PTCGO ladder teching in Faba+ Power plant just to deal with this combo, but even that hasn't proven to be a reliable option. I've been having a ton of fun playing with it and I strongly want to put it at a tier 1 deck. But I also recognize the PTCGO ladder is going through a "new toy" phase. So once the metagame has adjusted we shall see.

Lastly, if you aren't putting that steel tech into your ADP list you're just setting yourself up for failure against Gardeon :p KeldeoSwell can only get you so far in that matchup

Totally agree on the Malamar gameplan against Sky Pillar with doll/stall and ADP adjustments. I think a lot of people are still trying to also find an ADP list that works really well. I have seen some very different lists. Most of the power in that deck for sure is chaotic swell keldeo, and having tested I think the Melmetal is the better tech option. Drampa isn't bad, and is great against the mirror, but you either can't search it or you have to add pokecoms in which eats up space.
 

Toni Kensa

Playing and Collecting
Member
Anyone seen any updated tier list that includes Cosmic Eclipse? Trying to decide which cards to buy for my kids who play in juniors and seniors. Below is my current best guess. I'm sure I left out decks and probably have some that people might disagree with. Just my guess, and again I am seeking input to try to figure out new tiers in order to streamline my purchasing of cards.

Tier 1
Gardeon
Arceus & Dialga & Palkia/Keldeo (maybe 1.5)

Tier 1.5
Mewbox (could be tier 1, but a lot of decks play Mimikyu)
Pikarom
Malamar/Giratina
Green's Reshiard/Charizard & Braxien

Tier 2
Reshirom (I know a lot of hype, but a lot of playtesting has been inconsistent)
Volcarona & Silvally
Pidgey Control
Ability Charizard
Dark Box
Blacephalon
Doll Stall
Baby Blacephalon

Tier 3
Nuzzlechu
Sawsbuck
Excadrill

Why do you think Pikarom is still Tier 1.5? This is one of my favorite decks, but recently people are avoiding it, do you think SM12 gave it more tools to rise?

Thanks! :)
 

Kenatta_tcg

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Why do you think Pikarom is still Tier 1.5? This is one of my favorite decks, but recently people are avoiding it, do you think SM12 gave it more tools to rise?

Thanks! :)

That was just an initial thought. After testing it a little I don't think it is that high. It is more like Tier 2. Bad Mewbox/ADP/Gardeon matchups and stall isn't great. I hate to say it as this has been my favorite deck since it came out, but I think Pikarom is dead.
 

Kenatta_tcg

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Interesting that Tord put out his Tier list for anyone who didn't see it. It's not too far off of what we have been working on. I'm listing it below:

S Tier
Pidgey
Mewbox
Arceus & Dialga & Palkia/Keldeo

Tier 1
Ability Zard
Pikarom
Blacephalon GX
Gardeon

Tier 2
Braxien Zard
Quag Nag
Doll Stall
Baby Blacephalon

Tier 3
Dark Box
Malamar/Giratina
Reshirom

LMAO Tier
Beheeyem
Dusknoir
Volcarona/Silvally
 

Sabaku

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Have you thought about NuzzleChu with the new Reshiram/Zekrom? The deck as it is can take full advantage of Roxie and has the option to run Weezing for chip damage against ADP and some Gardevoir/Sylveon decks.
 

Corrado

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I think that ADP and Keldeo is insane, has good match up against lots of probably top deck. Problems with gardeon, but choise helmet could be a good tech against them. Anyone has a deck list that actually goes well? I've tryed many online, the teck is strong but with the actual list still need something
 

Corrado

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Interesting that Tord put out his Tier list for anyone who didn't see it. It's not too far off of what we have been working on. I'm listing it below:

S Tier
Pidgey
Mewbox
Arceus & Dialga & Palkia/Keldeo

Tier 1
Ability Zard
Pikarom
Blacephalon GX
Gardeon

Tier 2
Braxien Zard
Quag Nag
Doll Stall
Baby Blacephalon

Tier 3
Dark Box
Malamar/Giratina
Reshirom

LMAO Tier
Beheeyem
Dusknoir
Volcarona/Silvally
For tord ability zard is tier 1. I've played ability since yesterday before cosmic eclipse,but the new list of ability is still not good for me. Maybe he will release some nice new deck list for ability
 

Javi Blizz

Spanish TCG Player
Member
With that Tier List, fossils could make a come back, although I’m not sure about it’s game plan vs Pidgeotto
 

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
I'm going to risk being obnoxious again, but please understand it is not just about catering to my whims, but to improve comprehension of the data. Oh, and a good deal of it stems not from me having done it right for many, many years... but because I've been an idiot about it but thankfully have also started to learn from my mistakes. ;)

Let's talk about presentation. Some (maybe all) of this can be seen as nitpicking, so if you don't want to deal with it, feel free to skip it. ;)

There are two factors about competitive decks that should interest most:
  • How likely a deck is to win
  • How often it is played
Yes, there is usually a lot of overlap, but card scarcity or other factors can cause a deck that is less likely to win to still see more play. Perhaps we need to be classifying decks according to both aspects. After all, it really stinks when you take your Super Special Awesome deck everyone agrees is S-Rank... but your build gets clobbered because you didn't realize the Rank E decks still actually saw a lot of competitive play on account of being budget friendly and starring a popular Pokémon.

Next, can we stick to a more unified naming/labeling scheme?

I'm a video game nerd with at least a superficial appreciation of Japan; I'm totally fine using the S/A/B/C/D/E/F grading system, or something similar. I'm also comfortable using numbers, where 0 (zero) or 1 (one) is the best. What I think is unnecessary (at best) and confusing (at worst) is mixing them.

Half-ranks do more harm than good.

I used to think decimals were our friends, allowing us to be much more specific about how good a deck or card actually was, but then I realized such a level of minute detail - which was usually wrong, anyway - was unnecessary even when correct. XP Either accept that a deck can be the new "best deck" or "worst" deck of an existing Tier, or that you accidentally skipped a Tier when making the previous ratings (probably because it was previously an empty Tier). Which brings us to...

You can have an empty Tier.

Well, not if everything is supposed to be totally relative, but if there are at least some objective standards, you can have gaps!

Putting it all together it might be nice to have only one of Tier, Rank, Grade, Level, etc. refer to competitive strength while another covers how often we're actually seeing such decks run. And I do mean "run" and not "win": you never know who you'll face those first few rounds. Given that "Grade" is already used for card quality and "Level" for video game and (depending on the era) TCG mechanics, "Rank" and "Tier" sound good to me. If I missed that one or both of these already have another meaning, I'm sure we can find something that works.

Mean, I'd probably use letters with Ranks and whole numbers with Tiers. I don't think we've ever had a diverse enough metagame where half-Tiers or +/- grades are necessary. I would recommend trying to hammer out a unified notion of what each Rank/Tier really means, because we've all been annoyed a deck we love or hate placed where we didn't want it to place... but then had to admit it was our emotions and not the deck's qualifications causing the disagreement.
 

Toni Kensa

Playing and Collecting
Member
Top 8 on LAiC, yesterday:
2 Mewtwo & Mew Tag Team
2 ADP
1 Reshizard
1 Doll Stall
1 Blacephalon GX
1 Naganadel & Guzzlord GX

Finals were Reshizard Abilities Turbo vs Mewtwo & Mew.
 

TSA123

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Did the Doll Stall run Sawsbuck?
no, just played the one rainbow w/ latios gx & spiritomb as attackers

anyway, here's my tier list (unordered within tiers):
tier 1:
adp
turbo (ability) zard
m3w
pidgeotto/oranguru

tier 1.5:
doll stall
guzznaga
gardeon
blowns
greenzard

tier 2:
malamar/trevnoir
quagsire/silvally
blacephalon/pidgeotto
reshirom
 

Kenatta_tcg

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Did the Doll Stall run Sawsbuck?

Ha ha, no. That doll stall deck was insane. I think they said he had 32 pokemon in it and 28 of them were one of. Not sure anyone can make much out of that list other than the guy who played it. Big brain deck. I watched it on stream and it was nuts. He was pulling weird random pokemon out of everywhere.
 

Kenatta_tcg

Aspiring Trainer
Member
The reshizard ability list is the old list, just makes a couple of changes. Robin too strong

I agree Reshizard ability is strong, but I'm not sure if it was the deck that was strong, the player, or both. I'm inclined to believe that ability zard is either low tier 1 or tier 1.5. If you look at the results no one else playing ability zard did well, which leads me to believe that Robin made it better that it actually is.
 

Corrado

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I totally agree with you,I thought someone would bring a list a little different from the old one, but the changes are minimal. At the moment, I think that adp keldeo still need to find a good deck list
 
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