Active Mafia LVII: Big Brother Betrayal: Week 3: TeamAqua4Life#HEYNICK and Nyora Nominated; Eviciton Start!

Discussion in 'Forum Games' started by NinjaPenguin, Feb 25, 2019.

  1. bbninjas Ready or Not!
    bbninjas

    Advanced Member Member

    @bbninjas it was his posting as a whole (or lack thereof) rather than individual posts. You do raise valid points about his first posts, but that last one was pretty much echoing Celever. Eh, actually they were 3 minutes apart so he may or may not have seen Cel's post. Even if he didn't see it, he proceeded to not follow his own request (even up until this point). His read list is a thing, sure, but it was a response to Celever calling Nick out on his own post since until that point Nick had not given thoughts on anyone besides Zone, who Nick himself considers easy to read (everyone is comfortable metareading him).


    Like you said, his other posts have been responses to people. Obviously responding to people is good, but in doing so Nick avoided giving thoughts on potential nominees both times where I said I was thinking about nominating x and y (even when it was himself), and when I directly asked him about what he thought about being nominated, he chose to AtE rather than argue about other potential nominees or otherwise defend himself. I don't like that his go-to is AtE. This did happen after my initial tentative nomination tho, at least the specific AtE bit. But Nick hasn't commented on much and it's not a lack of material as others have been doing so. Just answering questions is enough so that people get an image when they see the name instead of thinking 'oh, I forgot he existed'.
    Messed up the formatting above so here it is again in a spoiler.
     


  2. Zone Q11 『Plebeian』『He who Hails from NovelUpdates Forum』
    Zone Q11

    Member

    Can't you do that by making reads and scumhunting?
     
  3. GekkisaiDaiNi The Sharp Alien
    GekkisaiDaiNi

    Member

    I agree with it for the most part but I think he also made it harder for town to figure out what was going on as well.
     
  4. GekkisaiDaiNi The Sharp Alien
    GekkisaiDaiNi

    Member

    I explained why it was if you read my post :U

    As for reads, yeah fair. But I was rushing a post so I didn't forget, because I had to leave for a dance class. And honestly I don't really see much truly alignment indicative happening right now.
     
  5. Zone Q11 『Plebeian』『He who Hails from NovelUpdates Forum』
    Zone Q11

    Member

    That's a big fat lie for sure.

    We have 13 players and 10 voters.

    You, Cel, Blink and Geyde are pro policy lynching me. This alone already makes a 40% of everyone, and thereby making it "a big wagon".
    I made sure to literally make enemies with Violet who "has nothing to say" and Gekki who "is all bark and no bite". With that kind of a sheeping mind and 4 policy voters, they will 100+% vote to exile me.
    Nick's susp as always. It's in his meta at this point, and I am 55% sure he will go along with the policy vote as well.
    Jade is likely AFK. Maxwell requested for a sub out, and whoever replaces is sure to choose me over mirdo the pacifist.
    Then there is mordacazir, who has only voted 4 posts, making him practically an empty shell.

    With this, it is certain that everyone will vote me.
     
  6. Zone Q11 『Plebeian』『He who Hails from NovelUpdates Forum』
    Zone Q11

    Member

    ...? The fact that people say that my logic is garbage doesn't force me to change my logic though? :v
    Yeah. This is still nonsense. With a setup of 3 scum and 10 towns, you ought to have more than Celever giving you town-vibes. Especially if you have read Violet. No sane town, scum or even neutral (which is not in the game) will say that she is NAI. Null perhaps, but not NAI.
     
  7. bbninjas Ready or Not!
    bbninjas

    Advanced Member Member

    You said it yourself: 40% are pro policy lynching you. That is not everyone; everyone else is just a wild guess.
     
  8. Celever Wheeeee~
    Celever

    Member

    I'm torn because I trust bb at assessing other players and he's never minimised his interaction with another player like he has with you Zone; you must have screwed things up in his game pretty bad and I don't want a repeat of that.

    But on the other hand my gut is telling me very strongly that Vom is scum and put up his scumbud mirdo as a WIFOM in the late game.

    On the other other hand I'm conscious of the fact that in Zone's conversation with Gekki he's never once challenged Gekki's read that I'm town, instead moreso taking the position of "yeah Cel's town, who else is?" and I mean, that's a non-sensical position for Zone to take unless he's scum and knows I'm town.

    But that's weak because semantic wording observations are one of the weakest forms of early game cases as everyone screws up phrasing sometimes.

    I just don't see a syllogistic thread as to why Vom u-turned and elected to nominate mirdo over Nick, especially as hes continued to argue for Nick being scummy, as bb pointed out above. It feels like there's summit else at play there; maybe it's America's Player, if it's not a scum pairing.

    Town reads so far are Nick, bb and Violet. I think if mirdo is scum so is Vom and if Vom is scum so is mord but that's a chronological connection and so neither connection works the other way around (if mord is scum it doesn't mean Vom is and if Vom is scum it doesn't mean mirdo is). However, solving the game like that this early on would be ludicrous, and Blinky, Geyde, Gekki, and Zone are massive enigmas to me. So is Jade cos they're not posting. If I forgot anyone's in the game they're clearly an alpha enigma.
     
  9. Vom I am become Writer, togetherslapper of words
    Vom

    Member

    Well, you asked me what made me suspicious of Nick, and I'm trying to show you my point of view. I agree with your assessment that I'm trying to show Nick is scummy, but I'm not trying to show Nick is definitely scum. I'm trying to show you there is a real chance he is, but you keep justifying all of his actions as if he was confirmed town. I'm not trying to get him lynched here, I just want you to consider the possibility that he could not be town.

    In your post with the underlined+italics, you isolate elements that can/could apply to anyone, but you can't take one element and analyze it in a vacuum. By themselves, there are only a few things that could be AI. It's the combination of factors that makes you more/less suspicious of someone. Yeah, anyone could echo Celever, or ignore their own request, or remain silent, etc., but Nick actually has.
    Fair enough, it wasn't the best wording. But you can't actually argue that by asking "how do you feel about x situation" the question of "what is your opinion" was not there.
    The first 3 posts include Nick taking action about certain players, but it doesn't actually say why he did it or what he thinks about those players. Well, obviously he thought something was off which resulted in those posts, but what I mean is, was he trying to catch them in a bad spot? Was he hoping they'd slip? Or was he actually just curious and looking for answers? We don't know. Maybe he was trying to solidify a town read, maybe he was setting a trap. You can't just guess what a player thinks about another player off of one question.
    Not much to say about post 4. He was asked for a list and he gave it, labeling people as town/scum/null/leaning. It's better than nothing, but it's the reasoning behind it that's valuable.For 5, 6, and 7 you can answer questions about yourself and give thought on another paragraph. Answering questions and giving thoughts are not mutually exclusive.
    Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't is right. But it's been more doesn't than does, and it's NAI by itself, but it could be with the other factors.
     
  10. Celever Wheeeee~
    Celever

    Member

    @Vom, make a player list of reads based only on the posts before Nick's list of reads.
     
  11. Zone Q11 『Plebeian』『He who Hails from NovelUpdates Forum』
    Zone Q11

    Member

    1. At this point you are acting stupid, even by my standards. 40% is already a big wagon. There is ZERO chance I don't get exiled. Even if 3 people strongly pushes people to not get me, there will be at least 4 people who will definitely lock their vote on me. What about the last 3 people? They won't vote, or won't make it in time.
    2. Oh yeah? Then let's ask them ourselves, shall we? @VioletValkyrie, @TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK, @GekkisaiDaiNi, who will you vote between mirdo the pacifist and Zone the chaosmonger? If you vote abstain (if you even could) then you will be nominated next week.
    Huh. I most likely did.
    ...and I feel no guilt from it. After all, I was killed in the end anyways.
    1. You are digging your own grave if you are town.
    2. The fact that I never challenged Gekki about his read on you does not mean that I read you as town. It does implicate it, but that implication could easily be proven false.
    Yeah. That. Good thing you said this.
    I have no qualms with mirdo->Vom, but how does Vom->morda work? The latter's only posted 4 posts.
     
  12. Vom I am become Writer, togetherslapper of words
    Vom

    Member

    I will tomorrow morning/later tonight if you really want me to, but that is so not my point.
     
  13. VioletValkyrie ALL OUT! ☆ Heart
    VioletValkyrie

    Chat Room Staff Member

    mirdo hasn't really been doing much of anything? I think floaters are just fairly boring in a BB game and inactivity's bad in any game since it shows you don't care. If you wanted me to make and reveal a vote right now I'd say mirdo.
     
  14. Celever Wheeeee~
    Celever

    Member

    On phone so not mutliquoting, @Zone Q11 what I said is WIFOM so it's not digging my own grave, if I'm scum and say "Zone not challenging my town alignment is weird cos I'm town", then if you're town you're not gonna challenge me on it and if you're scum you're not gonna challenge me on it. Would be some dank towncred points too. Not why I did it, just refuting what you said in case you're trying to set up a kill target tonight that can't be read into; if I get nightkilled on this site it's always read into because I have a strong tradition of being mislynched in the later stages of the game as town and that's a tool scum love to utilise.

    Also @Zone Q11 not sure why you reiterated that 4 people are still hammering for your lynch in the same post you quoted me being ambivalent about who I'm gonna vote to evict, considering I was one of your 4. Didn't think it had to be said directly, but you're down to 3 people as I'm currently leaning mirdo.

    I refuse the notion that mord's vote for Vom was meaningless. He's either America's Player or a scumbud with Vom and I'm running with that theory until presented a better one.

    @Vom I understand that it's not your point but I'm refuting a premise of your argument rather than the conclusion.
     
  15. Zone Q11 『Plebeian』『He who Hails from NovelUpdates Forum』
    Zone Q11

    Member

    ...you have got to be kidding me. Have you even read the whole thread?
    -> I think I understand what you want to say, and while I do not want to "challenge" you, I want you to understand why I don't challenge you.
    -> No, it is not for the towncred, because after my third post or so I had already given up on that.
    -> I don't challenge you, because of a stupid reason. The reason is: I automatically give towncred to anyone who talks a lot about not-fluff-but-not-AI topics.
    -> The same happens to Vom, bbninjas, Nick and Geyde.
    -> This cursed reason is also the reason why I keep townreading NP, because he talks a lot of stuff.
    -> Yes. It is weird, because even if their opinions differ from mine, and even if they are against me, anyone who talks a lot will gain natural towncred from me.
    -> To whoever is reading this: If you dare say that this mindset is flawed, stupid or that I have to change it, then give yourself a FoS because I am playing mafia knowingly that my mindset is chaotic. You ought to know this as well by now.
    #blameVom
    #blamemyselffornotchecking
    #AAAARGGH!!!
    Great. (Sarcasm) You just ruined my argument against bbninjas. Now the stand is...
    ___Zone (3) - Geyde, bbninjas, Blink
    ___mirdo (2) - Cel, Violet
    ___??? (2) - Nick, Gekki
    ___Unlikely to vote (3) - Jade, Max / Max's sub, (unless he comes back) morda
    ...how am I ever to work with this!? If mirdo flips town, then I am either going to be treated bad for the rest or the game, or become a wasted lynch D2!
    Listen. I understand that you link morda with Vom, but I do not understand why you do so, considering morda only has 4 posts.
    *checks all 4 posts*
    Are you doing this because of his vote on Vom? If so, then surely you understand that this link is weak, right?
     
  16. GekkisaiDaiNi The Sharp Alien
    GekkisaiDaiNi

    Member

    Can you read past the first sentence of the post?
    So you're saying I'm insane for having only one read?
     
  17. bbninjas Ready or Not!
    bbninjas

    Advanced Member Member

    Screwed things up is a bit harsh, but Zone caused chaos which he admits but won't try to change. He a) threw around accusations as if he had evidence for it which changed every 24 hours b) he demanded ever person to claim at some point in the game c) he's hypactive which meant that his chaos prevented logical scumhunting. I'm surprised about what Gekki and Aqua said (the mafians): they were apparently concerned about Zone when they were mafians last game. On the other hand, their actions -- to active lurk the discussion -- suggests that they were happy to let Zone + others drag the town around, so that doesn't add up. I don't remember much explicitly concerning Zone in the scumchat, and the reason he got nightkilled was because he is volatile and had started to accuse Gekki, and also he was a watcher who had incriminating information and was getting a confotown status (note that he had this information two days before he actually claimed it). This makes me wonder if Gekki is mafian if Zone is mafian, he might have changed the story slightly to defend Zone. (I don't include Aqua here because he died Day 1 and wasn't involved in the decision making



    While I totally agree that Vom is scum (he would be my second HoH pick if I was nominated), I don't see why mirdo is scum? If it's because you think Vom is mafian and he chose Mirdo because towncred, then isn't the a WIFOM arguement in itself, and wouldn't the prerequisite lynch be Vom because his flip would inform Mirdo's (not the other way around)? As far as I can see, a Mirdo kill would be a lucky guess and no different to a Zone kill, except that one is town-detrimental.

    I would like to point out that Zone can only be policy lynched on Day 1. It's now or never. We can't policy lynch on other days because we will have information then and we need to lynch more informed to stay ahead. If Zone is policy lynched and he is town, then we've wasted a day and we didn't even make an educated decision.

    Okay, I appreciate how it could look like this. I'm actually trying to show that current arguements for Nick don't make sense. I did highlight a post I found signficantly scummy when I posted my ISO, so I agree that there are reasons, but not the ones you've been pushing. Read-wise; I started off have a neutral read but disagreed with your arguements and so I defended; this discussion forced me to ISO and now I'm actually town-reading him.

    When I refer to "anyone could do that", I was particularly referring to myself. I have echoed people many times this game, not followed up on things I've asked / said, been narrow on who I give thoughts on, and I use AtE when defending myself / others (though not yet in this game). The only differences between Aqua and myself are that I post more and am more experienced, so I know to make arguements and take the intiative to comment on people in every post I make. Conversely, you could apply the same arguement about the combination of factors on Gekki, mirdo, Violet and possibly Maxwell. That's more people than there would be scum, which is why I don't think it's indicative.

    You keep agreeing with me and then counter-arguing, or counter-argue and then say its not a big deal, which is odd.

     
  18. bbninjas Ready or Not!
    bbninjas

    Advanced Member Member

    For this who want a tl;dr, read this:

    I would like to point out that Zone can only be policy lynched on Day 1. It's now or never. We can't policy lynch on other days because we will have information then and we need to lynch more informed to stay ahead. If Zone is policy lynched and he is town, then we've wasted a day and we didn't even make an educated decision.
    If Zone is mafia, then accurately reading him is very difficult. Regardless of alignment, Zone will cause chaos.

    If you're 50 - 50 on either mirdo or Zone, then you should pick Zone because a) he's chaotic which is anti-town and b) mirdo can be read, while Zone is very difficult to read.
     
  19. Celever Wheeeee~
    Celever

    Member

    Ah fair enough, it still makes sense. Though I would honestly argue that calling for a mass claim unnecessarily does screw up a game, if it catches on. Shame, too, cos in my earlier games with Zone I genuinely admired him as a player; he's good when he tries.

    In regards to the bit about Gekki and Nick I'd say that could probably work if the players in question weren't Gekki and Nick; I can't remember a game where they haven't active lurked the discussion.
    Oh, absolutely, if it weren't for the BB mechanics in this game I would have planted my vote on Vom already. Given the situation we're in, voting for mirdo would possibly be beneficial because if we do get a lucky shot Vom is all-but confirmed. The policy lynch is appetising but that prospect is moreso, for me. It's not in fitting with traditional mafia play, but this is anything but a traditional mafia game. The counter-argument is the existence of America's Player, but I assume he would need to get his target right more than once to fulfill his WinCon, and frankly I'm not even sure it is a counter-argument because if it is only one correct shot the role would necessarily have to be able to mutually win with another faction else the game would be unbalanced as hell, and so that role winning and being removed from the game would just be one less variable for us to consider. Plus, after today, even if mirdo flips town Vom probably still dies tomorrow, it's just less likely.
    mirdo's comment about not wanting to read the whole thread has still rubbed me up the wrong way. Though there isn't as substantial a precedent as Zone in the last game, mirdo not reading every post and having an invariably jocular posting style where there's more fluff than content is chaotic in its own sense; we really have the choice between two wildcards here, especially as that posting style is primarily chaotic due to is precluding the possibility of airtight reads of the player making the posts.
    Want to basically echo this as why I'm townreading Nick too. He was actually scumlean for me on impression from memory until I went back and ISO'd him after the discussion between bb and Vom, where I realised he's probably town.
     
  20. Celever Wheeeee~
    Celever

    Member

    I was talking from my perspective, not yours; referring specifically to where you tried to say that I was digging my own grave. I'm as conscious as anyone else that there's no doctor in this game and that I'm radiating townie vibes like I founded the settlement, but I can't see any reason for you to point that out except to set up an inoffensive nightkill tonight. Reiterating that players like bb and Vom will read into my death regardless and probably draw a good conclusion from it was a worthwhile move in case we have an inexperienced scum team who might think it's a good idea.
    You know when someone creates a piece of artwork that looks like a dog rolled in mud and then on canvas, asks you for your feedback on it and you start bullshitting fake compliments? Mord's vote was that: an attempt to hide the true purpose of his vote by shrouding it in a paper-thin shimmer of transparency. I'm just not sure what the true purpose was yet.
     


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