I passed out at my keyboard, sorry. This took for-goddamn-ever.
Splitting my responses to make them easier to follow.
Response to Celever
Yeah except most of PMJ's "case" isn't alignment-indicative and what is has long been established as bb's playstyle regardless of faction, like the whole "caring too much about how he appears in his posts" thing bb does as town and scum to edifying degrees
bbninjas has had a scum's mindset this whole game. Letting him off the hook because he does the same thing as both town and scum gives him carte blanche to act as scummy as he wants and not get punished for it. This is why I can't stand meta reads.
And this is exactly why people should be throwing out your case. You're just pushing on the two most active players because there's the most material there to pretend is scummy when it's not, and that's pretty obvious to everyone else except, apparently, you.
bb got on my radar when I saw how much he was trying to save Tapu Lele's life
after he was revealed to be scum. When I first said you were scum, I was taking a page out of the ol' Camo playbook and gauging how you'd react. This quote is what got me looking harder at you:
Why do you think there should be FoS on Cel if or because Lele flips scum? What about defending a mafian Lele actually indicates that Celever is a scumbuddy? In this situation, when its been publicly revealed that a scumbuddy is a mafian, scumbuddies generally won't defend them and try get someone lynched - most mafians would just cut their losses and go along with it.
Here, bb is trying to cover his bases by making sure that when Tapu Lele inevitably flips scum, that it can't be plausibly tied back to you. There's really no reason to care about who dos or anyone else FoSes otherwise. bb offers a wifom explanation about how scum typically react in a given situation, but it's completely unnecessary because dos doesn't need it. He isn't new.
It's a very common mafia tactic to target the most active players for exactly this reason, and because once the active players die the inactive ones just coast through to failure without even noticing what's happening.
You're suggesting here that I ignore the content of his posts simply because he has made a lot of them, and we're still relatively early in the game.
On the contrary, him posting frequently has allowed me to make my case against him stronger because it gives me more posts to make examples of.
Activity, or the lack of it, should never be used as a reason to stay someone's lynch. You're throwing a good lynch away because you're afraid of what might happen. Well, guess what, it might not happen too. And in the event it does, then I guess it does. At least I can say I tried.
All of your posts reek of this exact tactic,
No shit? Considering the majority of my activity in the game has been trying to get bbninjas lynched, it should go without saying that I have been targeting the most active players (assuming that's true - where's that pie chart when you need it?).
and are primarily why I think Samwise is a better lynch than bb:
But you didn't mention that when you cast your vote. You said it was due to the alleged slip as well as his vote on gek.
there are enough connections between the two players which makes me think if bb is mafia then Samwise is too,
You didn't mention this either. You claim there are enough connections between Samwise and bb to suggest they're both scum; specifically, what are they? Lay them out and actually make your case.
and so flipping the lynch order and taking out the less active player first to maintain activity in the case that bb does turn out to be town, because then we lose the player who's not contributing quite as much (not that this is a sign you should stop contributing Samwise -- post even more!
).
You just said above that you believe both Samwise and bb are scum. If that's the case, why would you want the more active one to remain alive? If you truly think bb is scum, then nothing he says can be trusted completely and there is no reason to want him in the game any further.
tl;dr I don't understand why you're so keen to take out the players who are putting in the most work, because it's impossible for you to be as certain of alignments as you purport to be, whereas I can say with confidence that your confidence is misplaced because.... oyeah I aint scum.
I am keen to take out bbninjas because I believe he is scum. You I care less about (but I still want you dead, make no mistake). It's true that with greater activity, it would be easier to draw conclusions on other players' alignments more easily, but thanks to bb defending Tapu Lele so hard, he made it very easy to make the connection.
And do you really think he went back and checked it?
It doesn't matter if he did or didn't check it, the fact is that the information is there, so there is no way to definitively say one way or the other what his thought process was.
There are dozens of ways this flip indicates him being mafia: he will have seen his own faction name there and assumed the other thing must have just been town, or Lele discussed strategy in the scumchat before his post for Samwise to then assume the content of the post instead of actually reading it etc. etc.. To think it's just a mistake is unwise.
If Samwise saw his faction name was Triumverate there is no reason for him to think that it meant town.
I mean, your case on bb was really bad. As I put earlier, it's predominantly stuff that's not alignment-indicative, is bb's notorious playstyle where every game everyone thinks he's mafia especially when he's town, or is pretty conspiracy.
zzzz meta reads, argument discarded
I think there are things that could indicate the guy as mafia in this thread, but what you put in your case isn't it, and how you have pushed this case makes me suspect you more than I suspect what bb has done, which is why opting for Samwise as the failsafe is a better choice.
Okay. What? You agree bb is scum, you have made that clear. Just not for the reasons I've stated. There are other things that suggest bb is scum, but you choose not to reveal them. Never mind that, you now suspect me of being scum because I have been pushing the lynch of someone you think is scum, even if it's for reasons you disagree with. But never mind that too, because Samwise is still the better lynch.
Please make sense.
Again, why do you not want to lynch Samwise? Do you genuinely believe he is town? I've asked this a lot and you haven't responded.
I never said anything about lynching Samwise. I asked you if you thought bb was innocent, and you said no, so I asked why your vote was on Samwise instead of someone who you also thought was scum and someone I already built a case on. That doesn't mean I don't want him lynched. To be honest I have not looked at any of his posts outside of trying to find the one you said he slipped in, so I can't say one way or the other right now.
You have also never asked me my thoughts on Samwise's alignment. (If you did, please point out those posts.) But yeah, I think he's town.
So lynch me for not paying attention? Owait no cos that's not alignment indicative: therefore, this point is empty.
Wasn't meant to be definitive evidence against you, just saying you dropped the ball here.
No, I joke around in every game, ever. Look at any past game and you will see me making flippant throw-away joking comments, because this is a party game at the end of the day and the purpose is to have fun.
The purpose is also to win. Anything to win, right?
You know this about me -- we've played more than enough together in the past -- and so trying to pass off a playstyle quirk as a scum tactic is not a good case and, ironically enough, is a far better-established mafia tactic than "appearing to be joking".
Plus, joking around isn't WIFOM at all anyway and isn't even scummy. I literally don't understand how you're trying to make it appear that these are mafia tactics;
This statement:
if I die today (which let's be real, one of me bb or Jabs are the likeliest nightkill targets (unless all 3 of us are mafia :UUUU)) then please pursue those two tomorrow, as I think one of or both of them are mafia, whether Lele flips town or nah.
Didn't like it. There is no point in speculating who is getting night killed. Saying you are one of the likeliest targets is textbook wifom. You could have still asked people to look into Samwise or scattered without posting anything about the night kill. You also could have made a case on either of them, which would have helped if you actually did die during the night and flipped town.
don't take the time to explain it though because I don't really have much patience for listening to you trying to push lynches on the active players because they're active and that will make your life easier. Just accept that this point isn't a real point so we don't derail the thread, because there is a chance you're just a really misguided townie.
I's powerful sorry, massa Celever, for posting about stuff I found sketchy. I sure won't do it again, boss, please don't lynch this poor misguided townie! I'll be sure to ask permission the next time I want to post my thoughts.
Also I am not lynching bbninjas because he is active, that has never been the case.
I think read over past games since I've had this phone and you'll see it's come up then, too. I also think you need to start making points with substance and not baseless speculation of my technological prowess irl, because that's not a real response.
I already said it's not something I can prove or disprove, so it's a moot point. I brought it up simply because it seems awfully convenient. It's weak, circumstantial evidence at best. Good thing that's not the only thing that makes you the scum of the earth.
There are quotes from this game where people began suspecting Jabs of being mafia because of his over-assertiveness.
Please quote them. I tried looking and couldn't find anything supporting this.
Worrying about how your posts come across to town is a mafian's way of thinking -- I agree -- and being over-assertive is one which way in which this manifests itself. You know, the whole "putting up a facade of confidence to hide that you don't wanna get lynched" thing.
There is no facade here, I am 100% confident that bbninjas is scum. And of course I don't wanna get lynched. No one wants to get lynched.
In fact, ironically, the only time it's justifiable to be as assertive as you have been is if you're just doing it to appear as good as possible to the (other) townies, because the alternative is that you genuinely are this confident in your judgements on Day 3 (though it started on Day 2) of a game that's probably gonna end up on like Day 8 or 9, and the only reason why you could be is if you're in the informed minority, i.e. the mafia, because the town doesn't have enough information right now to be this confident. So either you're doing exactly what you just said is a mafia tactic, or you're genuinely this confident, which demonstrates a greater understanding of the gamestate than the town should have, which would heavily imply you're mafia.
The town has enough information to lynch bb because he went all in on defending Tapu Lele and trying to keep him alive. Now that he's dead and confirmed scum like we thought, it reflects very poorly on him as someone trying to save his teammate from getting boned by a random ability and not from honest scumhunting. I'm not interested in giving someone I think is scum a chance to weasel his way out of a lynch.
This entire paragraph is fluff and bravado. Just wanted to draw attention to it, because most of PMJ's content has been exactly this, too.
Bravado, maybe. Fluff, not at all, the first part of it was in response to your own question.
It's foolish to think that the guy's opinion on one case is enough to "prove" he's mafia or be as confident that he is mafia as you are. In top-tier play Lele would have been left alive as a failsafe later on in the game, and Day 2 would have been used to gather more information. This is the tactic I laid out in-thread and, though I had no expectation that we would pursue that strategy because this is an intensely casual game, it shows that there are tenable reasons why Lele wasn't the best lynch yesterday. So no, stop pushing something in this weird populist fashion you seem to be attempting to coat your points in.
A failsafe? Against what? There is no reason to leave confirmed scum alive. Literally the only thing they can do is cause trouble for the town with their words and whatever night actions they may have. Also, there is nothing wrong with trying to get people to vote for the person I want lynched.
I never said there was. I said there were better options: not that he's a bad one.
It still doesn't justify people using his act of defence as evidence he is mafia. That reasoning is so poor it's actively trying to change reality, which is when scumminess becomes a factor.
I'm pretty sure people were using the fact that he was outed as scum as evidence more than whatever lies he conjured up to defend himself.
I was clearly responding to the first clause of your quote, so stop feigning ignorance and pretending that you think I was trying to respond to your last clause, because that's clearly not true? Literally see the above point: this is so poor it's active trying to change reality.
You're right. No sarcasm here, I honestly misunderstood your post and I have no idea why I missed the connection. With that said, you still avoided the question I asked. Why, if you thought bbninjas was scum on day one, would you not answer me directly the first time I asked you about it?
Yeah except most of the players in the game have barely posted in that time, so we are basically still in RVS, and we got next to no information from yesterday because of Lele's role being posted totally quashing discussion.
We got loads of information. Tapu Lele made sure of that. But it's easy to claim there's nothing to see when it's another one of your scum buddies on the chopping block.
Oh, well if you, the alimghty PMJ, won't budge from your case I guess I'd better just totally change my opinions cheers oracle appreciate it xo. Oh, wait, no maybe I don't have to just follow what you say? I think bb could be mafia, but it seems unlikely that both you and him are and so because you've come in and have acted like mafia 101 it's now making me doubt my original read on bb where I thought he was mafia. Which probably wasn't the intention of your case, but it's the outcome so nice job there. Now that you've presented yourself as an equivalently plausible mafian with bb and distanced yourself from his so absolutely, we now actually have to look into extraneous cases, because we don't have enough information on either one of you to be able to confidently lynch one of you over the other, and losing both of you would be a great detriment because one of you must be town.
We have plenty of information on bbninjas - everything he posted during day two and his interactions with Tapu Lele are worth looking into. Me, sure, because all I've done is try to push bb's lynch. This is just you trying to find an excuse to push the focus off of bb. Talk about mafia 101.
ps the townie is me pls no lynch
Meta-reads are crucial to mafia because otherwise you try and fit everyone into one of two moulds, and that doesn't work at all.
And what do you do when players actively play against their own meta? Congrats, you lost because the last scum was the guy who you had pegged as hard town because he played his town meta. Darn, that guy tried to switch up his playstyle and got lynched because it differed from how he played last time as town.
Meta reads are 100% garbage and can't be trusted.
