Finished Mafia LI: Senate Subterfuge~Game Over!

[Tapu Lele]

The way I read the anti claim thing, was that it's risky to claim purely because roles might have both town and scum elements to them. The post said nothing about host given punishments iirc.

That actually makes a lot of sense. T_E for example, flipped with a role that helped both town and mafia.

 

[Celever]

I know I'm online on this thread for like 90% of the day sometimes, but I don't always have the opportunity to answer every question immediately.

I was told about an exclusive rule that restricted what I could tell other members about, much like how the Certamen members were restricted from talking about the Certamen in the thread. I am asking the mods right now if I am allowed to tell you what that rule was linked to, so I might or might not respond later with a bit more information.

I'm referring to post #359

The way I read the anti claim thing, was that it's risky to claim purely because roles might have both town and scum elements to them. The post said nothing about host given punishments iirc.

I disagree. It's under the heading of "changes", as in mechanical changes.

 

[Tapu Lele]

TSo it's weird that the hosts are directly preventing you from claiming your role. From my interactions with them, it seemed like they were taking more of a hands-off, "if you trigger the mechanics that's on you we're just telling you to be careful". What do you mean by exclusive rule, though? Because that seems really strange to me.

It's a rule that doesn't apply to many other people than me, as far as I can tell.

While your account of the legend is technically true, I disagree with your conclusion. The story is a warning surrounding how the overconfident create echo chambers and therefore remain ignorant to wisdom, rather than that the wisdom itself was faulty: Apollo created the oracle specifically because he believed all of the other oracles were far too vague with their assertions, and so he wanted to create a reliable one. Yeah, he gave Pythia the ability to see the future under the restriction that her answers would be open to multiple interpretations, but the certamen result isn't that because it's really not open to multiple interpretations. Look:

"Tapu Lele is" cannot be interpreted in more than one way, so it appears as though the hosts aren't doing the whole non-specificity thing that the Oracle of Delphi is known for.

If you want to be technical, yeah, I see your point. However, I'm just pointing out an example to show that this Oracle might not be an absolute source of authority, unlike the other host reveal we got today:

A Sudden Reveal​

In the Curia, a man begins to cry. From the pressure of this job he feels as though he can't handle, the power others wield over him, and the threats his enemies have been issuing. "Bibulus," Vrackenian asks, "What is the matter?"
"I'm scared!" Bibulus shouts, "I'm so worried that somebody will think that I'm a bad guy!"
"You have no need to worry," Vrackenian replies, "I think you have perfectly proven your complete innocence here."

Luxinity has revealed themself to be Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus, aligned with the Loyalists.
This is not to be doubted in any way, shape, or form. Lux is host confirmed to be a Loyalist.

We don't seem to get the tagline now, do we?
Also, btw, the flavor behind this message really made me laugh

Abilities which activate on death and so you have to keep changing your active target do exist and are fairly common, actually. And if it did randomly select you, then I don't see how that nullifies its results.

My only experience so far is with TE's on death ability from the last game, which had him act after he died - my experience still isn't completely comprehensive. I didn't know that they were "quite common" as you say - from my perspective, it seems like this implementation of an ondeath ability is inferior, as it requires more work/management on behalf of the host and the user. It seemed odd that this implementation would be chosen, as it makes things a bit more complex, but I guess it does give the user the advantage of immediately activating the ability

 

[Tapu Lele]

Also, I never mentioned "random" selection, I mentioned how it might have automatically targeted me without input from T_E.

Seeing how I am a prime candidate for a lynch, and pretty much the talk of the thread (I love the attention btw ♪), it could be designed to create a reveal that would stir controversy and chaos in the thread. We don't know.

 

[Nick Tornell]

Well, since Tapu Lele was revealed as Mafia with yesterdays lynch:
##VOTE:Tapu Lele
to answer Jabber...

##SQUID: NICK

Remind me what your experience in WW is again? ^.^

My first game was Town of Salem in which I was Mafia.

 

[bbninjas]

##unvote: Lele
What’s the majority?

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Vote Count 1​

@Tapu Lele (3): bbninjas, Jabberwock, Acetrainer_Samwise, scattered mind, TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK
Acetrainer_Samwise (1): Celever

Abstaining:
mordacazir, Professor_jplap, @GekkisaiDaiNi, @Jadethepokemontrainer, GM Draclord, @Luispipe8, Tapu Lele, Acetrainer_Samwise, @PMJ, bbninjas, mirdo, @Dusk Form Lycanroc, @Luxinity, double o squirtle, @OshaCraft360

Majority to lynch is currently 10 votes.
Players yet to post today have been tagged, along with the player who would be lynched if the day ended right now (Tapu Lele).

Jade has informed us he will be on V/LA the next 48 hours or so.

 

[PMJ]

V/LA until Monday as well please.

 

[Tapu Lele]

##VOTE:TapuLele

He's trying to fool us.

Why does this mean we should lynch him immediately? Dx

Before he actually succeeds in doing so.

Think a little further, or lynch him, and you'll find out why

I find it odd that you were so moved by my defense. You seemed so confident when the day started; confident that I was scum 100% (before I even said a word), and eager to scumhunt other players before the day ends.

As for Tapu Lele, if it was not obvious, we should lynch him today 100%.

thoughts on bbninjas?

Every single veteran who didn't vote for Tapu Lele or at least acknowledged how scummy he was is scummy to me. His role fishing was scummy as hell. Including AtE plus attempts to make people's cases invalid (see the posts about "2 veterans with different thoughts about me").
So you may understand why I put a veteran who defended Tapu, no less, in the highest place of my scum list at the moment:









Notice also how right after saying he doesn't think Lele was scum, he asks Celever about a possible motive Lele might have. That might be a subtle way to get info from town as to what exactly they think.




Other vetarans on that list who defended Tapu Lele(
Celever
Mordacazir
GM Draclord






Umm yes, and hey, why didn't you just say, like bbninjas, that this is something bb told you last game? because it never happened?

What did I say that so drastically requires an immediate vote? Did I strike a nerve or something? Could you please explain your reasoning for me?

I must say, given my quite unique position, I wouldn't find it surprising for mafia to try distancing themselves as far away as possible from me right now. Even if I'm not really scum, I guess the idea of defending someone that looks like scum would look very bad to their team. You aren't just hastily voting for me to avoid suspicion, are you?

 

[Acetrainer_Samwise]

I think one way we could clear this whole situation up is to know if there actually is a basement chat. If there is than Lele is scum if not than he's (most likely) not scum.


One player we need to keep an eye on is Celever he is playing very similarily to how Yog did in the last game. We have to be careful as he is taking a leadership role. If he starts pushing bad lynches than he needs to go. He also seems to fly under the radar as he seems afraid to put attention on himself and never once put his vote on one of the prime lynch candidates so far. In my opinion all he's done is create and confusion by trying to make a problem where there isn't one, and quite obviously trying to take attention off of the most important issue (Lele).




Also @Celever your vote being one me does nothing and is not a very logical as we have better options such as bbninjas and Tapu Lele. Not only that but your vote is based off off of an imaginary scumslip that never happened.


So ## SMILE AT: CELEVER

 

[Acetrainer_Samwise]

##SMILE AT: CELEVER

 

[Scattered mind]

I find it odd that you were so moved by my defense. You seemed so confident when the day started; confident that I was scum 100% (before I even said a word), and eager to scumhunt other players before the day ends.

You are host confirmed scum. You are trying to fool town, and some people actually fall for this.

What did I say that so drastically requires an immediate vote? Did I strike a nerve or something? Could you please explain your reasoning for me?

You are host confirmed scum. You are trying to fool town, and some people actually fall for this.

 

[Jabberwock]

Respond to the case for not voting Lele, then.

I'm currently voting Lele ...?

Seriously - this is quite a surprise, even to me. That's not my role! The role I got did not even say I was "mafia" or "Triumverate". In fact, I can't even claim my role because the hosts are preventing me from doing so. There is an exclusive rule that prevents it. I even had to ask the host for permission to say even that much, because this stuff must be "host approved".

Assuming it exists, why doesn't your "exclusive rule" prevent you from saying "that's not my role"? That's a partial-claim of sorts, as you've claimed not to be that particular role.

(Anybody else with an opinion on this: let Lele answer it. His is the only answer that matters right now and I do NOT want any of his scumbuddies giving him a way out.)

Given DoS seems fine boasting about this, perhaps the claim rules are tailored differently for each person?

I doubt this very much for the simple reason that when designing a game, coming up with twenty-odd different useful power roles is annoying enough without also giving each one its own set of claiming rules. And fwiw, I don't have any special claiming rules for my role beyond what it says in the OP.

Hey, that's interesting. My conversation was in a private Discord chat after the game ended.

@bbninjas do you have any issues with me quoting the relevant posts from the PM with Lele last game?

Oh yeah, horrendously gimmicky. Not a fan of how this turned out tbh it seems very unfair on you, especially with the anti-claim mechanics.

This is actually worth noting for the sake of argument: iirc NP has been very vocal in the past about his dislike of traditional seer roles. So there's a decent chance that there's something screwy with this one.

Lol. You really don't know The mird

Meaning "oh yeah don't mind me 'cause I always play scummy"? That never worked for Gekki and it ain't gonna work for you.

Sure. My thing wasn't the greatest play in history. But I think it is a possiblity that we had to adress. It's good that we did and you guys told me that i was stupid
I Agree with the Lele lynch tbh. Just... obvs no turbo lynch. We need more candidates.
Jabber might be a good candidate :^)

If you genuinely think I would be a good lynch, tell us why. If this is OMGUS, don't OMGUS and find a better lynch.

Because lynching him isn't the best option today. I've said this before.

Whoa whoa what? No you haven't; you've said turbolynching him was a bad idea. Do you believe it's a bad idea to lynch Lele at all today? And if so, why?

If you want to be technical, yeah, I see your point. However, I'm just pointing out an example to show that this Oracle might not be an absolute source of authority

Scumslip. Might not? According to you (and as it should be, from your POV), the Oracle is definitely not an absolute source of authority, because it got your role wrong!

You are host confirmed scum. You are trying to fool town, and some people actually fall for this.

He is technically not host-confirmed scum because we have seen what host confirmation looks like, and it includes the line "This is not to be doubted in any way, shape, or form. <whoever> is host confirmed to be <whatever>." Lele's flip did not include that line.

@Ninja Penguin / @Vracken, should Lele's flip have included that line?

 

[Jabberwock]

^@NinjaPenguin apparently your username doesn't actually have a space in it.

 

[Jabberwock]

>.>

One more try.

@NinjaPenguin

 

[Scattered mind]

Looking at the role it seems clear that he didn't have contact with the rest of the scum team, but also that the basement is just a different take on a mason chat. If there were role things like BPV attached to it then that should have been in the role flip.

We should probably wait this day out so people can post, so there's no point turboing Lele. Like yeah, he's mafia and can't really get out of it, but if we turbo him we start Day 3 in the dark.


Granted this isn't as big an issue as it would ordinarily be because of the no nightkill.

This is true. Though we don't have any information surrounding how he would get out of the basement in his role, this would traditionally be a democratic vote within the mason chat, and obviously this isn't going to happen now that the other two people in the chat know that he's mafia. Keeping him around gives us a failsafe later on, and lynching him now means we don't get as much information as we would by lynching someone new. So I support this decision.

How can you be so 100% certain that he's mafia that it's not even worth hearing out his defence?

Because lynching him isn't the best option today. I've said this before.

1. You are aware of the fact that the role flip is real unless the hosts are, as you said, meanie.
2. You say Lele is mafia and can't really get out of it = he is mafia 100%
3. You also acknowledge the fact that we do not know anything about how he would get out of the basement - so you probably know or have thought about how dangerous this might be if he actually does get out,

After all that, you ask me how I can be sure he is really scum?
And then you say that lynching him is not the best option?

I have read the conversation with you and Lele, and I didn't see anything that got you convinced that he might be town. So please, explain this change of thought.

 

[OshaCraft360]

##discard Tapu Lele,

Becouse I needed to pay 40 euros to get Tapu Lele for my deck...

 

[bbninjas]

##discard Tapu Lele,

Becouse I needed to pay 40 euros to get Tapu Lele for my deck...

Just curious, do you know how the game of mafia works? You should be voting for people who you think are mafian, and not be voting people out of a joke (based off their username, for example). If you are unsure on how to find mafians, remember that the mafians are trying to not get lynched and survive. This means that the mafians will be trying to mislead, get the wrong people lynched, direct attention to other people, causing disturbances / interruptions in the discussion and whatever other means it takes to avoid getting lynched.

 

[bbninjas]

What's so odd about all of this? I asked why my role-hunting in particular was scummy? It helped me get a better understanding of the game (I'm still looking up guides ever since this rolehunting landed me in deep water), and I also got a look at how original people were crafting their responses, and if people were actually reading my responses.

One night, when I was trapped in a grocery store with just my phone, I took it upon myself to read some mafia guides and check back on some earlier games. I noticed that you asked players "why" a particular action was scummy, so it reminded me of how my own response was crafted.

You made an defense (by questioning) very early in the game that basically echoed the type of question that I would ask. I then explain why this would be the case - I gave you this advice in Mafia 50. The odd thing is that you then claimed to have found this argument by looking at guides, and then checked multiple past games, discovering that I used this line of reasoning often. That's just a very convoluted explanation on your part. The problem? I don't see why you would give such a convoluted explanation as either alignment.

Hey, that's interesting. My conversation was in a private Discord chat after the game ended.

...I do not understand; the conversation was in a private Forum conversation after the game ended, not on Discord. Yeah, @Jabberwock, I have no qualms over quoting what was said in that conversation.

I also find it very difficult to believe that Tapu Lele is being kept by the hosts from discussing certain aspects of his role. There's a text-book example as to why hosts should never implement this sort of restriction, and I'd be near-certain that NP would know of it: a player is given the alignments of half of the town, but he is not allowed to share this information with the town. That player could simply claim being seer and each day claim 'seering' one of the players, and that would have technically gotten around their role restriction.

The only evidence that would suggest that Lele is actually telling the truth, imo, is that there was no "you should not doubt this in any way" message from the hosts. (Not that we would have expected it at that point, since there were no earlier precedents.)

I must say, given my quite unique position, I wouldn't find it surprising for mafia to try distancing themselves as far away as possible from me right now. Even if I'm not really scum, I guess the idea of defending someone that looks like scum would look very bad to their team. You aren't just hastily voting for me to avoid suspicion, are you?

Why do you say 'distancing' in particular? The mafians would only need to distance themselves from you if you are mafian. If you are town, they would happily push you and get an easy mislynch. If you are innocent as you claimed, I would have expected you to say something like "voting" or "pushing" - and "distancing" should not have even crossed your mind.

I have read the conversation with you and Lele, and I didn't see anything that got you convinced that he might be town. So please, explain this change of thought.

I have an idea as to why this might be the case, but I'd like to see what Celever says first.

 

[Vracken]

@OshaCraft360 in the future, please use the proper format ##VERBLAYER


I am going to leave @NinjaPenguin to answer that question for you @Jabberwock since he is the one who decided on that