Japan's XY9 Set: 'Rage of the Broken Sky,' New 'Battle Strengthening Sets'

Discussion in 'Pokémon Trading Card Game' started by Water Pokémon Master, Sep 7, 2015.

  1. dwarfstar bread and roses and spiders
    dwarfstar

    Member

    120 damage is not really that strong at all, actually. We're in a very OHKO-centric format right now, meaning 120 damage really isn't what it used to be, and an attack cost of 4 really hurts (remember, this is the primary reason why the theoretically super-threatening M Tyranitar-EX never got past tier 3, even with Yveltal support and plenty of ways to make Destroyer King strong enough to OHKO the entire format). Sure, you might be able to pay for that with two DCEs, but you will not be killing much of note without at least 3 Water Energy attached (two with bat support) because you're essentially forced to run Gyarados Spirit Link, and you're also massive hammer/Xerosic bait at that point. The only EX you can handle like that in Standard is Shaymin, and the non-EX attackers in this format can either shut M Gyarados down completely (Regice) or just set up and start smacking things so fast that it won't be able to keep up on an even prize trade (think Vespiquen and the Hawlucha/Mienshao combo) What this means is that it's incredibly difficult to get M Gyarados-EX off the ground, and the base form relies on coin flips to set up unless you have heavy support (and also damages your own mons when you try to attack, making your benched Shaymin-EX even bigger Lysandre bait than before).
    Now, it's entirely possible that we'll have Palkia-EX and Golduck BREAK to work with in this set, which might make M-Gyarados semi-usable where it wasn't before (the base form is still extremely lackluster), but at that point you have to ask yourself why you're bothering to use that instead of Primal Kyogre, which has a similar damage output with the ability to smack around your opponents' Benched EX mons as well and sets up faster due to Alpha Growth. And if this is being run in an Archie's deck in Expanded, Keldeo-EX is better suited to that anyway. I'm not gonna pass final judgment until we see the rest of the set, but unless something pretty drastic is waiting to be revealed, neither of these cards is going to see serious competitive play.
     
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  2. Rocket The Shellos Aspiring Trainer
    Rocket The Shellos

    Member

    This is a good one. It'll either be this, let you search your discard/deck/hand for a basic water energy to attach as well when you play it, something to do with returning cards discarded by attacks to the deck/ignoring discard card effects or something else completely that hasn't been considered
     
  3. Whitney's Miltanks Milk Maniac
    Whitney's Miltanks

    Member

    This card is amazing! you only need to run 1 copy in an archie/blastoise deck and can play it out with archie after getting blastoise into play to make mega pokemon WAY easier to KO.
    doing 200 damage off only 4 energies or 260 to ko everything with 7! keldeo would only do 130/190 with that many.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  4. iceDA Aspiring Trainer
    iceDA

    Member

    man i dont know why pokemon tcg is like this :(

    there is so many shitty cards in every box what sadden me more is like in every box there is around 90-120 cards 80% of them are just filler random ass effects, useless attacks and unplayable cards...specially since the meta is all about EX syndrome all evolution cards are just there its rarely to see some good cards or even make a deck out of them, i miss the old D/P boosters there was a tons of creative ideas and cool decks and in every new booster there is like 2-3 new decks ideas or some boost to old stuff :\
     
  5. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    I don't see the format as a OHKO format. Its really hard to take an EX down in one hit, let alone a mega. Sure there are some Pokemon that can do that and I can say good for them but most pokemon are going down it 2 hits for big hitters. The energy cost is hard but blastoise fixes that. The card has flaws, sure but it isn't bad. A lot of cards do things better than others. A lot of people have been wanting this Pokemon and now they got it. Its strong enough to make a deck out of. Keldeo wont be around forever and TPC is playing around with bans.
     
  6. dwarfstar bread and roses and spiders
    dwarfstar

    Member

    The issue with Blastoise is that, as I said, Keldeo just straight-up does the job of being that deck's primary attacker better due to Rush In and takes up 1/3 of the deck space per attacker, so there is never a reason to use M-Gyarados over that in an Archie deck - one might show up in there as a tech occasionally, but a competitively optimized Archie deck will not be built around it. And unless TPC changes the lower limit on which sets are allowed in Expanded, Keldeo-EX will be sticking around there for the foreseeable future. They're extremely reluctant to ban things, only doing so when cases get so extreme that they truly break the format - we've seen a grand total of two bans in the last four generations, and they've been cards that either removed a win condition entirely (LTC) or interacted with newer cards in such a way that they had a better-than-even chance of winning on the first turn before the opponent even got a chance to move (Shiftry NXD). Keldeo, while arguably broken by our standards, is nowhere near THAT level, and as such I'm pretty certain it will not get banned.
    Anyway, in any other deck not including Palkia-EX, M Gyarados is usually too slow (and often not powerful enough) to be worth building around - consider how low-tier most of the slow setup decks outside of Primal Groudon are (that one is an exception because of Omega Barrier and top-notch Fighting support, and M Gyarados has neither of those things) - and decks with Palkia-EX in them are still probably better served by Primal Kyogre.
    Decks for casual competition among friends are one thing, but tournament-level decks are going to be built using the best cards available for the job, and M Gyarados just doesn't fit that description. So while it may not be a bad card on an absolute scale, from a competitive perspective, it's slated to be mediocre at best unless it's got some fantastic support in XY9 that hasn't been revealed yet.
     
  7. TheUltimateAbsol Truth or Ideals? It's all Black and White to me
    TheUltimateAbsol

    Member

    No one noticed the greninja BREAK?
     

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  8. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    I won't say that. Gyrados is still a strong card and has a mega for more HP. It will be entirely up to the player on how they want to play it. Keldeo needs the water energy while Gyrados doesn't. I'm not saying Keldeo is broken but if it affect sells any, it will hit the ban list. A lot of people also though a lot of other cards weren't competitive but look at what happened. Its damage output is still good and 2HKO everything in the format, which I think is a pretty good sweet zone.
     
  9. TheFlyingPidove Missing the old days
    TheFlyingPidove

    Member

    You can also make it an 2HKO defense wall with Rough Seas
    Or we just need to wait what this set has in store for this beautiful looking Shiny M Gyarados
     
  10. CorinthiansRose Aspiring Trainer
    CorinthiansRose

    Member

    I like how a good chunk of people are saying how crappy this card is. I think that is hilarious because in the olden days of Pokemon, 120 damage was about all you needed to knock out even the strongest Pokemon and nowadays 200 damage is considered a crappy attack. I just find it intriguing how Pokemon has changed so drastically in the last 17 years. Not bad or good, just interesting.
     
  11. DevinTheWelf A Mach Punch User
    DevinTheWelf

    Member

    I'm honestly not sure if I believe this card is good or bad, I'm not going to judge it until I get to see the water support from the rest of the set. We already know Palkia EX is a thing, and we already have Dice Ball (which is such an amazing card), and we have Mega Turbo to help speed up the energy fueling. 240HP is really nice, although Manectric EX can 1shot Mega Gyrados EX because of the weakness. I don't know. Whatever the special water energy is, that could definitely change how we see this card. And also, remember, we have Rough Seas which is one of the best Stadiums in the game (imo), especially with Mega's.
     
  12. asdjklghty -------------
    asdjklghty

    Member

    If you take into account that you have to discard the top 2 cards of the deck, you'll see why this attack isn't that good.

    120+ is a horrible way to discard the top 2 cards of your deck. Mill decks will love facing this, let alone an Archie's version. Wow. you discarded 15 cards on your first turn to use Archie's and I'll use a couple Trick Shovel and Bunnelby's Burrow attack twice to discard more cards.

    We are in a OHKO format. Night March and Vespiquen are the worst offenders of this because they are so linear and almost always guarantee 160+ damage first turn. If not, it's best to assume they would. Anyone who says that NM doesn't hit for that much damage first turn isn't playing a good build or player.

    Just because there are decks like Mega Manectric which don't get OHKOs most of the time doesn't mean OHKOs aren't the focus of the format. And if you look at decks that don't OHKO such as Primal Kyogre, Defensive Yveltal, Mienshao, Seismitoad, Giratina, Vileplume, etc they either are straight up horrible or have some kind of lock/denial cards.

    In short, Mega Manectric is the exception, not the rule. Unless TPCi magically does something to what cards can be used, I don't see OHKO cards going away unless the whole XY block gets removed. And I'm sorry to say but even with some mystical force getting unleashed out of the set, I don't see Mega Gyarados being very viable since Lightning just got a huge boost in recent months. Oh yeah and Vespiquen and NM still exist.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  13. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    Well, I like the fact that it has a cost to the attack. I would like to see more cards like it. The game devolved into skill less game of who can do the most damage the quickest. Just like how M-Manectric is the exception, so is Night March. 120+ base damage is strong. Even if the opponent plays Pokemon Center Lady, its still in KO range for most EX and all stage 2 Pokemon. Yes there has been decks that focus on OHKOs but these types of decks always existed. Most of the formats were always 2 or 3HKOs.
     
  14. HA559 Aspiring Trainer
    HA559

    Member

    Don't worry everyone, special water energy will help you out when you are using gyarados.

    on the artwork, I don't like these water Ex that come out these days, they seem to have the same splash of water around the water pokemon. The full art Ex hopefully will be better.

    I'm surprised they are going to release the red gyarados without the regular version first. I though maybe they would've tried to make as much money as possible.
     
  15. asdjklghty -------------
    asdjklghty

    Member

    You have to take into account cards though. Since Mega Gyarados is water, it can take advantage of Archie's and Keldeo. In Standard, there's Mega Turbo.

    Tyrantrum EX focuses on OHKOs and it can get setup in 2 turns with DDE. Primal Groudon amazingly got resurrected during Regionals and it focuses on OHKOs. Yeah it's slow but Omega Barrier has great defense so that doesn't matter. M Ray focuses on OHKOs and can beat NM, Keldeo and Magnezone/Raikou also focus on OHKOs, both Mega MewTwos focus on that as well. Need I go on? The point is, while OHKO decks always existed, this format focuses on it. Saying they always existed is shifting the discussion. Weren't you replying to someone saying that this format isn't a OHKO one?
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  16. Water Pokémon Master I like Pokemon more than you. :D
    Water Pokémon Master

    Webmaster News Head Activities Head Elite Member Advanced Member Member

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  17. MegaButterfree Old Timer
    MegaButterfree

    Member

    I will just point out, to many of the people who are talking about the OHKO format - yes, that is true for competitive play/meta decks/hackneyed strategies - but Pokemon TCG is not JUST for competitive play. It is a game. Some people make decks for fun (or even use the pre-made theme decks) to play on a somewhat evened playing field with different challenges and MUCH more variability. I don't recall there ever being a claim by Pokemon that all cards produced are for championship formats.
     
  18. poke4trade Raising Ash
    poke4trade

    Member

    My 2 cents. I believe the card is setup to play with Laparas from XY with trick coin. I think if you ran a 3/2 Gyarados line with a 3 line of Laparas, and then added in a 2 line of regice, you would receive some reasonable competitive results. But that is not say that the deck wouldn't be a bit clunky. I think the quick start with Gyarados and trick coin is reasonable with rough seas as your stadium. Though, I do agree the evolution into M Gyarados is annoying. I think the deck would require some switch and escape rope cards.

    If I remember correctly, the new Palka is around the corner and the ex card attaches two water energies. However, I've been testing Laparas XY a lot lately and with trick coin it works fairly well. I usually get minimum of a single energy attachment every attack. But I got admit, lately, I've been getting two to three because of trick coin. <-- Lucky, I agree. :)
     
  19. Materious17 Pokemon Geologist
    Materious17

    Member

    That sure is a fine way to play and view cards, you don't need to be antagonistic about it referring to competitive play as hackneyed but I digress. Not every card is going to be viable in the current format and that is fine. However, M Gyarados-EX is this sets star and the theme this set is based around. When it comes to this, the Pokemon Company has a desire to make these cards as competitive as possible, without making them outright broken to promote sales of the newest set.
     
  20. HypYes Hyp Hyp Hooray!
    HypYes

    Member

    I actually feel like the 3-D artwork next to the cards would look better on them than what actually is
     

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