Japan Rotating All "A" Block Cards from Standard!

birdboy2000

Bird Keeper
Member
The new t1 rule seems almost like a return to the "attack 1st turn" era, which was horribly broken. Now everyone wants to go 2nd more than they wanted to go 1st before and things are even less balanced - evolution decks theoretically could benefit but they still need supporters to set up their board.
 

NicoNoo

Meta/budget player
Member
I dunno about that, now that welder engines can’t hit absurd damage turn two, stage 1s now have a shot if they go turn 2

A single Welder is more than enough for a tag team deck to gain early advantage or even donk evolution decks. Heatran, Mew2 copying Turbo Strike, or Reshizard going for the donk play, Pikazekrom Full Blitz. Evolution decks also really rely on supporter engines to get going. Stuff like Elm's Lecture started to be a staple for evolution decks lately.
 

Mysticvulpix

Just be chill
Member
A single Welder is more than enough for a tag team deck to gain early advantage or even donk evolution decks. Heatran, Mew2 copying Turbo Strike, or Reshizard going for the donk play, Pikazekrom Full Blitz. Evolution decks also really rely on supporter engines to get going. Stuff like Elm's Lecture started to be a staple for evolution decks lately.
Think about it like this: player playing welder engine goes first, doesn’t use welder. This means they might have enough energy on board turn 2 for them, after the other player a. Had an attack available, b. Had a supporter, and c. Probably a better start because of that.
 

Mysticvulpix

Just be chill
Member
A single Welder is more than enough for a tag team deck to gain early advantage or even donk evolution decks. Heatran, Mew2 copying Turbo Strike, or Reshizard going for the donk play, Pikazekrom Full Blitz. Evolution decks also really rely on supporter engines to get going. Stuff like Elm's Lecture started to be a staple for evolution decks lately.
Yeah, the rule kinda irritating, but at least now players can’t turn two get 6 or more energy on field. Heck, if they don’t draw well it really turns the tide towards second turn player
 

NicoNoo

Meta/budget player
Member
Think about it like this: player playing welder engine goes first, doesn’t use welder. This means they might have enough energy on board turn 2 for them, after the other player a. Had an attack available, b. Had a supporter, and c. Probably a better start because of that.

Evolution decks dont gain advantage out of having the first attack. I know all that because I heavily play evolutions. Whereas before you could use your turn 1 to try and setup enough basics to gain advantage later on, now you can't unless you get lucky with the item drops and Dedenne. Going for a turn 2 as an evolution deck, against a big basic deck is a pointless endeavor. The big basic deck would have played their Dedenne, got their energy attachment and now probably have their Welder/Koko prism/big attack ready in hand.

It's a lose-lose for evolution decks. Either use turn 1, pray to RNGesus you dont get donked and can setup at least 2 basics, OR go turn 2, pray you open a Dunsparce to setup your bench and still go down a prize against an opponent that by your second turn will be fully setup. It's just cumbersome to even think about it.
 

pokeraider123456

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Evolution decks dont gain advantage out of having the first attack. I know all that because I heavily play evolutions. Whereas before you could use your turn 1 to try and setup enough basics to gain advantage later on, now you can't unless you get lucky with the item drops and Dedenne. Going for a turn 2 as an evolution deck, against a big basic deck is a pointless endeavor. The big basic deck would have played their Dedenne, got their energy attachment and now probably have their Welder/Koko prism/big attack ready in hand.

It's a lose-lose for evolution decks. Either use turn 1, pray to RNGesus you dont get donked and can setup at least 2 basics, OR go turn 2, pray you open a Dunsparce to setup your bench and still go down a prize against an opponent that by your second turn will be fully setup. It's just cumbersome to even think about it.
i agree, evolution decks really depends on going first with supporters, also alot of decks that arnt evolution will want to set up thier basics with supporters. They effectively made anyone turned 1 a easy target. I can only imagine building a deck entirely out of items? supporters are essentially useless in the game, most decks may end up 1-4 supporters?
if they are doing this to the 1st turn player, this should also apply to whoever goes 2nd, they cant attack or play any supporters on thier first turn.
 
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Kenatta_tcg

Aspiring Trainer
Member
yes but only in Japan. We won’t see the rule change until later.
It's very likely this rule will come to the rest of the world at some point, we just don't know the exact date. Dedenne GX prices have already shot to $40 and up because of this. Get ready for tons of donks and pretty much only basic teamup decks to be played. You just can't take the risk of drawing into a hand with no ball search and getting turn one KOed with one Pokémon if you end up going first. RIP Green's Reshizard. If you only get Volcanion and have Green's in your hand you can't play it to get cherish ball. You will probably lose turn 1. It really is a poor rule that gives way too much advantage to the player going 2nd. It was slightly unbalanced before for the player going first, but not it is hugely unbalanced for the player going 2nd.
 

Mysticvulpix

Just be chill
Member
Evolution decks dont gain advantage out of having the first attack. I know all that because I heavily play evolutions. Whereas before you could use your turn 1 to try and setup enough basics to gain advantage later on, now you can't unless you get lucky with the item drops and Dedenne. Going for a turn 2 as an evolution deck, against a big basic deck is a pointless endeavor. The big basic deck would have played their Dedenne, got their energy attachment and now probably have their Welder/Koko prism/big attack ready in hand.

It's a lose-lose for evolution decks. Either use turn 1, pray to RNGesus you dont get donked and can setup at least 2 basics, OR go turn 2, pray you open a Dunsparce to setup your bench and still go down a prize against an opponent that by your second turn will be fully setup. It's just cumbersome to even think about it.
Do you play greens/prof. Sycamore/ jirachi in list? Also, what evolution decks would you even play right now? I can’t think of an evolution deck that would be popular. Don’t say nagquag, that thing is fine
 

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
The new Turn 1 rule may work out, but at first glance, it seems like they're repeating past mistakes.

The powers-that-be created a metagame where the combination of first turn attacks, Trainer support, Basic attackers, and Energy accelration lead to a fast, brutal metagame. Twice. I just described the first few years of the game, as well as much of the BW-era metagame. Both times, we eventually saw changes to the first-turn rules to combat this. Now that they're repeating questionable moves with Supporter power-levels, we're one again losing our opening Supporter.

Which didn't and doesn't fix the underlying issue, though they may cover it up for a time. Either going second will become "too good" and we'll have 90% of the problems with that which we already have with going first being "too good", or players will figure out a workaround and going first will still be far superior to going second. We might even get both, paradoxical as that sounds: players must build a deck meant to go first or second, and are hosed if they don't win the coin flip. -_-

Edit: Massive writing failure on my part; I went in to edit the comment because I used "created" twice in the same sentence, then realized I forgot to actually mention T1-attacks. @[email protected]
 
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Sabaku

Aspiring Trainer
Member
If TPCi really wants to balance the game, they should make it illegal to attach Energy manually on your first turn if you go first.
 

NicoNoo

Meta/budget player
Member
Do you play greens/prof. Sycamore/ jirachi in list? Also, what evolution decks would you even play right now? I can’t think of an evolution deck that would be popular. Don’t say nagquag, that thing is fine

supporters are a moot point for turn 1 going first, so I dont know why you are including them in the argument. Jirachi doesnt fit on many evolution decks; the aforementioned QuagNag and Blacephalon variants, Dark Box, Pidgeotto control, Beheeyem. Even if you use Jirachi you may simply not hit a search item; and Dedenne as a consistency tool in evolution decks is hindered by the simple fact that you may not want to discard your hand if it will lead you to an early loss if you can't recycle the lost resources later, not to mention being a liability in non-gx evolution decks.
 

Mysticvulpix

Just be chill
Member
supporters are a moot point for turn 1 going first, so I dont know why you are including them in the argument. Jirachi doesnt fit on many evolution decks; the aforementioned QuagNag and Blacephalon variants, Dark Box, Pidgeotto control, Beheeyem. Even if you use Jirachi you may simply not hit a search item; and Dedenne as a consistency tool in evolution decks is hindered by the simple fact that you may not want to discard your hand if it will lead you to an early loss if you can't recycle the lost resources later, not to mention being a liability in non-gx evolution decks.
Those are all stage 1s, and literally are barely never played in the first place
 

Mysticvulpix

Just be chill
Member
supporters are a moot point for turn 1 going first, so I dont know why you are including them in the argument. Jirachi doesnt fit on many evolution decks; the aforementioned QuagNag and Blacephalon variants, Dark Box, Pidgeotto control, Beheeyem. Even if you use Jirachi you may simply not hit a search item; and Dedenne as a consistency tool in evolution decks is hindered by the simple fact that you may not want to discard your hand if it will lead you to an early loss if you can't recycle the lost resources later, not to mention being a liability in non-gx evolution decks.
Yes, pidgeotto control did well at worlds, but you don’t see it to often. Besides, it’s goal is to stall, so it isn’t truthfully effected too poorly. It can take a knockout or two, because it’s all non gx. Beheeyem has barely been played, and dark box fell of the face of the earth.
 

NicoNoo

Meta/budget player
Member
Those are all stage 1s, and literally are barely never played in the first place

WUT.

Ok, buddy, it's one thing to be disingenous, but dont come here saying that baby Naganadel, Pidgeotto in all decks that use it, Quagsire and Beheeyem are "barely used", because it's patently not true, and if it was, you are just supporting my argument; that evolution mons are just unable to compete in such a fast and bulky format that caters to big basics. If your argument at the end boils down to "well evolutions arent played now, so it's fine if they entirely disappear from any kind of meta relevance" then let me tell you that you are very wrong, because evolution has a right to be an useful mechanic in a game that's supposed to cater to all pokemon players. Not all players like playing basics, some of us like the thrill of setting up a board with multiple stage 1s/stage 2s, like in some of the best days of the ex era (ex, not EX). And if they won't cater to us, well, then why buy product until they give us what we want? We are about to head off into a format with the same rules we had back then in the ex era, except without nearly the same consistency tools to allow evolution decks to thrive, HP values thrice as big and with one of the most unbalanced cards in Pokemon history legal.

The next format will be remembered as one of the worse in Pokemon history. And Welder and Tag Teams are at fault.
 

Mysticvulpix

Just be chill
Member
WUT.

Ok, buddy, it's one thing to be disingenous, but dont come here saying that baby Naganadel, Pidgeotto in all decks that use it, Quagsire and Beheeyem are "barely used", because it's patently not true, and if it was, you are just supporting my argument; that evolution mons are just unable to compete in such a fast and bulky format that caters to big basics. If your argument at the end boils down to "well evolutions arent played now, so it's fine if they entirely disappear from any kind of meta relevance" then let me tell you that you are very wrong, because evolution has a right to be an useful mechanic in a game that's supposed to cater to all pokemon players. Not all players like playing basics, some of us like the thrill of setting up a board with multiple stage 1s/stage 2s, like in some of the best days of the ex era (ex, not EX). And if they won't cater to us, well, then why buy product until they give us what we want? We are about to head off into a format with the same rules we had back then in the ex era, except without nearly the same consistency tools to allow evolution decks to thrive, HP values thrice as big and with one of the most unbalanced cards in Pokemon history legal.

The next format will be remembered as one of the worse in Pokemon history. And Welder and Tag Teams are at fault.
So you would prefer to stick with gxs or ex’s, same style? You had big basics then, now you just have bigger basics.
 

Mysticvulpix

Just be chill
Member
WUT.

Ok, buddy, it's one thing to be disingenous, but dont come here saying that baby Naganadel, Pidgeotto in all decks that use it, Quagsire and Beheeyem are "barely used", because it's patently not true, and if it was, you are just supporting my argument; that evolution mons are just unable to compete in such a fast and bulky format that caters to big basics. If your argument at the end boils down to "well evolutions arent played now, so it's fine if they entirely disappear from any kind of meta relevance" then let me tell you that you are very wrong, because evolution has a right to be an useful mechanic in a game that's supposed to cater to all pokemon players. Not all players like playing basics, some of us like the thrill of setting up a board with multiple stage 1s/stage 2s, like in some of the best days of the ex era (ex, not EX). And if they won't cater to us, well, then why buy product until they give us what we want? We are about to head off into a format with the same rules we had back then in the ex era, except without nearly the same consistency tools to allow evolution decks to thrive, HP values thrice as big and with one of the most unbalanced cards in Pokemon history legal.

The next format will be remembered as one of the worse in Pokemon history. And Welder and Tag Teams are at fault.
quagsire is one thing, but it’s only viable point is weakness boost against reshizard. Anything that uses spell tags can take it down, or anything with a smaller basic. Beheeyem: name one place you’ve truly seen it perform. I’ll wait....
Ok, are we done? Good.
Baby Naganadel? As it’s own deck? You either see it with blowns, which literally plays heatran to start quick, and you could even argue nagquag focuses on power of keldeo, using the others to power up. Besides. since the beginning, basics have ruled this game, from haymakers to ex’s to these tag teams. There have been stage two decks, for example gardy, my favorite, but what did it succumb to? Buzzwole, a quick BASIC deck. Stage ones have had better chances, but most of the time the decks you see do best are those that set up quick, and most of the time those are basics. Bet the same was said when we found out there’d be Mewtwo ex. Same with lele, or buzzwole. Even stage twos have their basics. And there are opportunities for evolution to fit well in a format like this, such as how breaks worked. They weren’t done well then, but if pokemon rethinks them they could be much better. Case in point for hype for v max, being like that. Sorry, but this is a card Game, where you play with what you’re given. Same with practically every other. I hate to say this, but you’ll have to deal with it. Or maybe take your complaints straight to TPCi, I’m sure they’ll listen to you.
 

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
If TPCi really wants to balance the game, they should make it illegal to attach Energy manually on your first turn if you go first.

Wouldn't it make more sense to prevent any Energy attachments except for your manual from-the-hand Energy attachment?

The big issue with the Pokémon TCG is pacing: I think we agree there. However, how much of that is due to fundamental game rules, and how much of it is due to questionable card design?

Clarification: I was suggesting that it would make more sense as a First Turn Rule for Player 1 or possibly even both players. Re-read my comment and realized it could be taken as me stating to do away with all Energy acceleration. XD
 
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Sabaku

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Wouldn't it make more sense to prevent any Energy attachments except for your manual from-the-hand Energy attachment?

The big issue with the Pokémon TCG is pacing: I think we agree there. However, how much of that is due to fundamental game rules, and how much of it is due to questionable card design?

The amount of Energy acceleration has gotten pretty ridiculous, and Welder was likely the last straw out of all of them. If it were specific to only Fire Pokemon, maybe it would be acceptable, but you have a lot of decks now that can use it, even if their main type isn't Fire. There isn't even a drawback of needing cards in the discard or only being reliable on Turn 2. Just get 2 Fire in hand with a Giant Hearth, and you have an effective Welder. Banning all 1st turn supporters if you go first was just an indiscriminate move done to stop Turn 0 plays like Welder, Maxie, and possibly anything coming out in the near future without outright banning anything.
 

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
The amount of Energy acceleration has gotten pretty ridiculous, and Welder was likely the last straw out of all of them. If it were specific to only Fire Pokemon, maybe it would be acceptable, but you have a lot of decks now that can use it, even if their main type isn't Fire. There isn't even a drawback of needing cards in the discard or only being reliable on Turn 2. Just get 2 Fire in hand with a Giant Hearth, and you have an effective Welder. Banning all 1st turn supporters if you go first was just an indiscriminate move done to stop Turn 0 plays like Welder, Maxie, and possibly anything coming out in the near future without outright banning anything.

Yeah, it is the same throwing out of the baby with the bathwater that the elimination of T1 attacks caused. I'd rather there was a rule that on either player's first turn, you ignored all damage done by attacks. Might have to be refined a bit, if attacks that score KO's via effect caused too much trouble, and the real solution is just not making cards that can attack on a player's first turn and do serious damage or damage counter placement.
 
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