How will Z-Moves and Alola Forms be Added into the TCG?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Trading Card Game' started by PineDog, Aug 1, 2016.

  1. PineDog Random TCG Trainer
    PineDog

    Member

    This is more for Z-Moves, as Alolan's will probably just be normal cards. I think Z-Moves will be added in some form of Ace Specs, keeping up with the whole 1 per battle from the TCG. For example:

    Trainer: Item - Bloom Doom: Z-MOVE
    Z-Move: Attach this to 1 of your (G) Pokemon in play. That Pokemon may use this card's attack instead of its own. Once that Pokemon uses this attack, discard this card. You can't use more than 1 Bloom Doom attack each game.
    (G)(G)(G) Bloom Doom 160
    Your opponent's active Pokemon is now paralyzed and poisoned.

    Trainer: Item - Inferno Overdrive: Z-MOVE
    Z-Move: Attach this to 1 of your (R) Pokemon in play. That Pokemon may use this card's attack instead of its own. Once that Pokemon uses this attack, discard this card. You can't use more than 1 Inferno Overdrive attack each game.
    (R)(R)(R) Inferno Overdrive 300
    Discard all energy attached to this Pokemon.

    Trainer: Item - Hydro Vortex: Z-MOVE
    Z-Move: Attach this to 1 of your (W) Pokemon in play. That Pokemon may use this card's attack instead of its own. Once that Pokemon uses this attack, discard this card. You can't use more than 1 Hydro Vortex attack each game.
    (W)(W)(W) Hydro Vortex
    Switch your opponent's active Pokemon with 1 of your opponent's
    benched Pokemon, this attack does 150 damage to that Pokemon.

    Trainer: Item - Gigavolt Havoc: Z-MOVE
    Z-Move: Attach this to 1 of your (L) Pokemon in play. That Pokemon may use this card's attack instead of its own. Once that Pokemon uses this attack, discard this card. You can't use more than 1 Gigavolt Havoc attack each game.
    (L)(L)(L) Gigavolt Havoc 150
    Discard all Tool cards attached to all of your opponent's Pokemon.

    Presumably, cards that share a type like Colorless and Flying, Psychic and Ghost, Water and Ice, etc. will just have 1 Z-Move, unless they are spit apart.

    I think the Z-Move rule balances it out since it's supposed to be an amazing attack, and if you use it over and over it again, it would be a little to OP.

    Your guys thoughts, ideas, opinions?

    *Edits: Added "This card remains in your discard pile for the rest of your game." Wording will be fixed later. Added other three Z-Moves we know off so far.*
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016


  2. Frontier Brain David Aspiring Trainer
    Frontier Brain David

    Member

    I honestly think that would be an amazing addition to the TCG.
    Good job on thinking ahead. On the new video, I thought Litten's Inferno Overdrive seemed very overpowered.

    So maybe Z moves could be like a 1 time use tool card?
     
  3. RiverShock Aspiring Trainer
    RiverShock

    Member

    Z-Moves I don't imagine will be a mechanic. (Maybe they'll appear, but they won't be anything special. Maybe they'll give some BREAKs those attacks or something. Not like they made a big deal of moves like Blast Burn in the TCG, even though they have appeared.)

    Alolan forms will probably, yeah, just be regular Pokemon. (Probably with the same name, also. So we'll probably just get a Water-with-Metal-Weakness Sandshrew card, for example, rather than something named "Alolan Sandshrew" or something.)
     
    Otaku likes this.
  4. bbninjas Ready or Not!
    bbninjas

    Advanced Member Member

    I'm curious to see how the Z-Move mechanic will be integrated into the TCG. Having an ACE SPEC style Tool that can be attached to any Pokemon of said type could easily break the game, if said tool is particularly powerful. This is because Pokemon are designed with their weaknesses and strengths in consideration, but if a Z-Move is released that covers a large weakness of the card, said Pokemon could shoot to top tier. Imagine that Bloom Doom idea on Virizion-EX - you wouldn't even need Genesect-EX anymore, especially with utility such as Puzzle of Time or Echo Arm! It's a bit like what happened to Donphan a few seasons back. Strong Energy and Fighting Stadium converted the low-output Spinning Turn attack into something that became top tier. Similar thing happened with Shiftry NXD more recently, as Forest of Giant Plants removed Shiftry's weakness of being slow and made Giant Fan donks a feasible possibility. So, if such a card would be made, I'd imagine it'd have to be much similar to the tools of Double Crisis.

    I'd imagine they will be tools or printed attacks that restrict the use to a "You can't use more than 1 <attack name> attack each game." effect, much like Hippowdon LvX's Sand Reset Ability. They could also be combo attacks, requiring you to discard a certain card in your hand if it is to be used, but that sounds complicated.
     
  5. Otaku The wise fool?
    Otaku

    Member

    Hopefully the Z Moves will be ignored; they don't translate to the TCG very well.

    In the TCG, a once-per-match move is a resource you have access to as long as that Pokémon isn't KO'd or afflicted by a Status Condition that would prevent it. The video game also handles most of the complex stuff; you don't have to keep track of what used what yourself (well, you should try to remember what your opponent used for strategy purpose...). The TCG will require either an update to the rules to explain the new mechanic and probably additional rules or effect text on the cards.

    The Ace Spec cards were successful in that some were powerful and so they probably drove sales, at least indirectly. In terms of a fair, balanced gaming environment? They were a failure. The basic premise is balancing a potent effect against a card where you only get one copy of that card class. If you succeed at that, its just a lucky draw waiting to happen; might be nice when it wins you the game, but it stinks when you lose because someone got their Ace Spec at the right moment... or you got yours at the wrong moment and had to waste it. That doesn't seem much more skilled than getting a lucky coin flip on some of the four-per-deck Items, does it?

    In practice we learned how to build decks to optimize Ace Spec use. Skyla to help search them out, cards to help reuse an Ace Spec... which begs the question if an effect is balanced against only happened once per game, does it stay balanced when you can reuse it? It is possible, but in practice usually not. There is also the issue of having an entire class of cards in total competition with each other. Remember how annoying it was that even if you were lucky enough to have all the Ace Spec cards to pick from, most of your decks would use Computer Search or Dowsing Machine. A few others like Scramble Switch and Scoop Up Cyclone were also pretty handy, but the rest either had a specialty deck or no deck at all where they were your one Ace Spec.

    Even if Z Moves do get used, remember how different the Mega Evolution mechanic is in the TCG versus the video games.
     
  6. cardgjammer Aspiring Trainer
    cardgjammer

    Member

    How about changing the lost zone applications so that Z-Move cards can go there along with Pokemon? Unlike the lost zone, the discard pile contains cards that can be retrieved. If Z-Moves are put in discard, if you have a card that retrieves cards from discard, it can be used again, and maybe make Z-Moves a banned mech in TCG... But if it goes somewhere that the player can easily know that he/she can't use that card again until next game, like the Lost Zone(which was last used in Call of Legends), then that would not be as confusing or overpowered in any way... No Trump card, no thinking about "I retrieved it, but can actually I reuse it?" questioning, zip!

    ^ It's looks like a fat chance, but if Z-moves can only be used once per battle in the games... if the Lost Zone doesn't return to lessen confusion regarding Z-moves, even if the result is the return of cards that put pokemon in there(just to give it something that stores more than just Z-moves), then since I don't know what else is there to enforce the "once per battle" bit regarding Z-moves in the TCG... :(
     
  7. Nine out of ten once Sun/Moon cards hit, it will be the end of BREAK Pokémon. Only EX's have survived going from generation from generation, even though Lv. X cards and BREAKS are basically the same thing.

    If Z moves are a mechanic I could see it being similar to ACE SPEC cards in design. Likewise I agree that Alolan Pokémon will just be regular Pokémon. I mean consider Alolan Exeggcutor, it will still evolve from Exeggcute. The most we could hope for is some kind of symbol that would separate them so that in theory a deck with Exeggcute could still use Exeggcutor and Alolan Exeggcutor and even then it might not happen.
     
  8. PineDog Random TCG Trainer
    PineDog

    Member

    I would have to agree with that, more so for Ninetales and Sandslash, as those shouldn't be able to evolve from normal Vulpix and Sandshrew.
     
  9. RiverShock Aspiring Trainer
    RiverShock

    Member


    They seem to have been standardizing things lately. (XY is the first new generation not to introduce a new card layout, for example.) I honestly expect BREAKs to continue. Either way, this isn't important to my point. I don't see them doing anything out of the ordinary for these moves. They'll just probably be regular attacks on some Pokemon, whether BREAKs, Megas, or just regular Pokemon. They've never made a big deal of those kinds of attacks in the TCG. (Every Item that gives access to attacks has either not been a video game attack, or is just a regular, mundane attack and not a particularly unique one.)
     
  10. There is always a first time for everything. In fact, though they haven't made an appearance since I believe the fourth set of the R/S era Hidden Legends they do have somewhat of a precedence they could follow with the trainer card Technical Machine. They could be treated like ACE SPEC tool cards.

    You're right that the status of BREAKS after Evolutions is a separate point from how/if they choose to handle Alolan Pokémon and Z moves, but it was still brought up and I felt like adding in my opinion on it.
     
  11. Otaku The wise fool?
    Otaku

    Member

    @Pikachu6319

    Technical Machines in EX: Hidden Legends were specifically part of the Ancient Technical Machine series. The most recent Technical Machine printed was Team Galactic's Invention G-107 Technical Machine G (PL: Rising Rivals 95/111), where the G is a stylized letter G that represented Team Galactic cards in the TCG. It could only be used by Pokémon SP; before that you had to go back to Technical Machine TS-1 (DP: Legends Awakened 136/146) and Technical Machine TS-2 (DP: Legends Awakened 137/146). DP: Legends Awakened released in August of 2008 while PL: Rising Rivals released in May of 2009. They would have rotated from Standard play when it switched to HS-On in 2011.

    So... seems doubtful they'll bring back a mechanic that rarely worked well in the first place. Technical Machines existed solely to give Pokémon access to an attack printed on them, and such a thing is now done with Pokémon Tools.
     
  12. Yeah I forgot that they had Technical Machines in Legends Awakened and Rising Rivals.

    Still there was a huge gap between Hidden Legends and Legends Awakened, and they chose to try to bring the mechanic back, to say nothing of Rising Rivals. It may seem to be doubtful that they would bring it back if it didn't work well in the first place but that doesn't completely rule out the possibility.

    At this point in the game even if they tried to do a revamp of TM's I have no doubt they would just be classified as Pokémon Tools rather than Being TM's again. It'd be similar to Zygarde Power Memory card.

    In fact quite honestly I think we have the answer on how they might make Z moves, if they do at all. Pokémon Tool Trainer Item cards.
     
  13. Lord o da rings ♕ The Queen ♕
    Lord o da rings

    Member

    I'm hoping that Z-Moves operate in a similar way to that of what you've described.

    However, Alola forms in my honest opinion, should go back to what earlier BW sets did. Anyone remember those shiny Pokemon from a few sets such as Dark Explorers that were secret rares? Shiny Gardevoir and Shiny Archeops. What does this have to do with anything? That's how Alola forms should show up in the upcoming Sun and Moon TCG. Keeping them rare, highly sought collectors items, and valuable. That'll make pick up a few packs to try my luck (or if I'm lazy, buy them online). My other idea is making them about as rare as an EX. This would keep them rare, but also have them sought after, and viewed as cool, and rare cards by the collectors. Either make them about as rare as a current EX, so they're still considered special, or make them secret rares.

    (Oh, and if they'd please, like what they did for the Kalos Pokemon for those first three sets, make the Alola forms artwork by 5Ban! Love that art!)
     
  14. RiverShock Aspiring Trainer
    RiverShock

    Member

    I feel like what you're suggesting is more akin to what the Platinum sets did, where there were slightly-better-than-average unique shiny Pokemon cards, rather than just Secret Rare reprints of cards in the set. It wouldn't make sense to do straight reprints for the Alolan forms, since they're different types.
     
  15. Lord o da rings ♕ The Queen ♕
    Lord o da rings

    Member

    You're probably right. While I've played the games since Generation 3, I never got to the card game until the early BW era of the TCG. So I just ought of the Dark Explorers set as a good example of what I was talking about

    The Gardevoir card I mentioned:
    . image.jpg
     
  16. Gruffling Aspiring Trainer
    Gruffling

    Member

    I think Alolan Pokemon could work similar to Delta Species did. Be regularly named with a little symbol by them. That way they can be evolved into like Exeggcute does unless a card doesn't name the evo with the symbol and in the cases of Vulpix or Sandshrew where it specifies the Alolan forms evolve you can have on the Ninetales and Sandslash 'evolves from bla bla bla (palm tree symbol or something)

    That way you can have Trainer cards that can target the Alolan cards specifically.
     

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