Discussion How Do You Build a Deck Without LTC?

[TheStrictNein]

I barely knew how to construct decks when decking out wasn't so much of an issue. Now I have literally no idea how to put 60 cards together. How do you build a modern deck without LTC? Do you even continue to use certain cards? Do you start running 20 energy? How does it work? I'm a Professor for card interactions, not deck building

 

[Draaka]

I guess just start using cards like N or Colress again instead of Sycamore all the time, then have a lot of revives and energy retrievals. It kinda neuters a lot of battle compressor reliant decks to some extent. Try to use some repeat balls instead of ultra balls where possible I guess. Team mates I guess is better now.

 

[Ivy_Profen]

Its probably more how you play rather than deck building. Sure deck building will change. You can't go with 4 of Acro Bike, 4 VS Seeker, 4 Battle Compressor, 4 Juniper and expect to not deck out if you play every card you draw into.

I've been playing Shiftry recently. Even with only 2 Sycamore, I can easily deck myself out in maybe turn 4/5 and then use trump card. I can still play this deck without trump card, I just need to know when to stop using leaf draw.

Im expecting Teammates and Skyla to be a little more used. Since you can just go digging through your deck anymore looking for that one card you need and get extra stuff along the way.

 

[crann777]

I think there's still a place for the speed drawing mechanics that became prevalent, except now it is a case of risk vs. reward that didn't exist while LTC was in the format. If you want to draw out half your deck T1 to achieve that ideal setup you can still do that, but you're putting yourself on a clock until you deck yourself out. Hell, people were playing Roller Skates and Battle Compressor before LTC became prevalent.
What I'm more interested to see is what happens when N cycles out. I know that a late-game N to shuffle most of my hand back into the deck has saved me in the past. Shauna/PBO are more aggressive but don't provide the same effect.

 

[SSB_Charizard]

Supporters that search instead of draw are looking more attractive to me (Teammates, Korrina, Pokemon Fan Club, Winona, etc.). Items like Professor's Letter, Evo Soda and Trainer's Mail can get you what you need without costing you want you might want later. Sycamore/Juniper is going down to a 3-of in all of my decks for now.

I'm probably in the minority, but I like the challenge of rebuilding my deck engines and trying out new things.

 

[asdjklghty]

I still stick to the traditional draw like N, Sycamore and Colress. I've also been experimenting with Shauna as well as Acro Bikes and Trainers' Mail which are all pretty helpful and I don't keep Acro Biking so I don't deck out. Trainers' Mail seems usefull because you shuffle the 3 other cards back into your deck instead of discarding them.

This is why I never liked Sycamore. Glad I stuck to N.

 

[Snyder005]

Lol, I don't see what the big deal is, it's not like Lysandre's Trump Card has been around for that long anyways. It's not like now everyone will drop Junipers for Shauna. It just means the speed builds will change. To be honest a lot of decks won't care. Primal Groudon, Lando/Bats, VirGen, Yveltal/Seismitoad, Donphan, Bronzong Variants, FairyBoxes all rarely played LTC. Heck we had Turbo Lugia with tons of draw way before Trump Card.

 

[My Little Keldeo]

Here's a (sort of) comprehensive breakdown of the effect that Lysandre's Trump Card being banned will have. This is all just my musings, and is reflecting on the current format for Nationals and Worlds. None of this is in regard to post-rotation.

- "Lock" decks such as Seismitoad variants and Exeggutor will lose much of their power, and likely not be viable at all. Without being able to recycle hammers and Hypnotixic laser, their major sources of damage supplement and disruption are crippled. Team Flare Grump and Xerosic can still be reused via VS Seeker, but can can only be done a limited number of times. Playing Shaymin allows you to draw while also playing a disruption Supporter, but without being able to re-use Super Scoop Up this isn't a reliable strategy anymore. Seismitoad may still see some play and I think it can do decently in the right format, but it will have many more unfavorable and neutral matchups.

- Decks reliant on DCE such as Flareon, Night march and Raichu will lose a major saving grace. Once a Pokemon with a DCE is KOed, the energy is gone forever, and discarding DCE with a Juniper is a real possibility. Enhanched Hammer is also remaining in format, and if players are more free to play items, you can expect it to appear as a tech in many decks, just as it was in past formats. This will slow these decks down considerable if they need to rely on basic energy. Bunnelby PRC is the only card I can thing of that can put Special Energy back into the deck, but it's an easy prize. Thundurs-EX could possibly be used to recycle DCE onto Flareon PLF, but this feels like a stretch in our format.

- Decks that require insane amounts of draw quickly will face problems, but not become entirely irrelevant. Colorless Mega Rayquaza can certainkly risk decking out before it gets all set up, but it's just as likely to get going on the first couple of turns. Battle Compressor gives you easy acess to Exeggcute PLF and basic energy via Mega Turbo. Running four Sky Field will let you win any Stadium war, with Dowswing MAchine being another opportunity to get your Sky Field back into play. Exeggcute can simply be Progogated and re-benched.

- Decks that has struggled due to unfavorable matchups against Seismitoad will likely return. This includes Yveltal, both with and without Garbodor, Big Basics, Virzion Genesect, maybe Plasma (it's a stretch) and perhaps even some Stage 1 and Stage 2 decks. Item lock being less ubiquitous means these decks will have a better time, all in all leading to a more diverse format.

- Seismitoad will likely still see play in some form or another. Yveltal, Big Basics, or any other deck that uses DCE can easily run Toad to slow their opponeng early game while building up stronger attackers. That said, I don't think Seismitoad will function as its own deck in the matter that it was before LTC's ban. Quaking Punch is still a powerful attack however, and when used at the right moment can keep the opponent at bay while buying time.

- Dccks will return to more standard draw engines as were seen in lat year's format. I honeslty don't think deck building will be affectible too much outside of the decks that relied on Trump Card to avoid decking out or recycling resources.

 

[Materious17]

Like I said yesterday before the topic was removed(?) It isn't necessarily about how to build a deck without LTC because the PTCG has done that for over a decade just fine. It is a playstyle and a mindset you have to be in going into games now. Your discard choices are more impactful and you have to be extra warry of how many cards are left in your deck and what resources you have used or discarded earlier in the game that could impact how you finish the game up.

Should I Sycamore my hand away or can I rely on my top-draw?
If I Ultra Ball do I discard my special energy or this tool card, niether of which I can use this turn but which will be more useful later on?

 

[Otaku]

How do you build a modern deck without LTC? Do you even continue to use certain cards? Do you start running 20 energy? How does it work? I'm a Professor for card interactions, not deck building

I apologize for mistaking comments you made about this elsewhere as hyperbole.

You may want to try building some different decks than you have been using lately. The decks that absolutely need Lysandre's Trump Card aren't specific archetypes but specific variants. Even Seismitoad-EX based lock decks can survive without Lysandre's Trump Card, but they can't be built as the

1. Draw deck.
2. Throw deck at opponent.
3. Wash
4. Risne
5. Repeat

variety. As earlier Seismitoad-EX decks did, you'll either be running something for more damage such as another attacker or Crobat (PHF). Only use a deck that rips through itself to set-up if that same deck is capable of enduring some horrible discard choices such as having to discard (for example) multiple Double Colorless Energy early game and takes Prizes rapidly enough that decking out shouldn't be an issue. Some decks will need to run less efficient methods of recycling hard-to-recycle cards, like the Ancient Trait Bunnelby (PRC). Many decks will need more Energy, but remember that most of the time that build already exists and only became less favored because LTC made the "I only run four DCE" versions possible.

 

[Talkingcat]

- Decks that require insane amounts of draw quickly will face problems, but not become entirely irrelevant. Colorless Mega Rayquaza can certainkly risk decking out before it gets all set up, but it's just as likely to get going on the first couple of turns. Battle Compressor gives you easy acess to Exeggcute PLF and basic energy via Mega Turbo. Running four Sky Field will let you win any Stadium war, with Dowswing MAchine being another opportunity to get your Sky Field back into play. Exeggcute can simply be Progogated and re-benched.

I suspect that Colorless Rayquaza will slow down a bit on average, and we'll see greater impetus towards alternative builds.

People playing the speed version should experience the downside of drawing so fast more often. There will be cases where they can't set up or where they do but they lose key pieces and have to draw more to rebuild, and eventually lose resources. Basically, the speed draw/very aggressive strategy will become a bit more inconsistent. I would expect that some players will react to this by either tweaking the build or playing more conservatively, or both. So, I think that build will slow down a bit. I would presume it will still be pretty darn quick though.

On the other side, I think a lot of people were already seeing weaknesses in the build- no natural reply to safeguarders, for example- and people were talking about how else to build it. The speed version now being riskier should just reinforce that. I expect to see lots of new versions soon. Bronzong is an obvious one, I am sure there will be many more.

 

[Frost Mage]

- "Lock" decks such as Seismitoad variants and Exeggutor will lose much of their power, and likely not be viable at all.

Here's what Kian Amini (the top ranked Master in the US and Canada) told me when I asked him how well decks with a primary focus on toad would work in the future

.

 

[My Little Keldeo]

Here's what Kian Amini (the top ranked Master in the US and Canada) told me when I asked him how well decks with a primary focus on toad would work in the future

.View attachment 8091

The "not as obnoxious" part is precisely what deters me from playing Seismitoad. Garbodor will no doubt by helpful by shutting down Shaymin and other things, but without the power to burn through your deck to spam and recycle resources like SSU and hammers, you are limited to only a small numbers of successes. I think Seismitoad dccks will have strong openings, but without LTC will run out of steam after the first few turns and fall prey to Pokemon that outdamage them.

 

[Otaku]

I think Seismitoad dccks will have strong openings, but without LTC will run out of steam after the first few turns and fall prey to Pokemon that outdamage them.

Or shift to an alternate strategy to push for the win.

Nothing says your opponent can't keep using Quaking Punch, take a few Prizes and then since s/he has had several turns, unleash some other heavy hitter. Space concerns will eliminate certain options, but not all of them.

 

[My Little Keldeo]

Or shift to an alternate strategy to push for the win.

Nothing says your opponent can't keep using Quaking Punch, take a few Prizes and then since s/he has had several turns, unleash some other heavy hitter. Space concerns will eliminate certain options, but not all of them.

This is essentially how decks like Yveltal and Big Basics with Seismitoad function. They will use Quaking Punch early game to slow their opponent down while setting up stronger attackers to overwhelm the opponent. This isn't a flawless strategy, as a player can simple drop all their items (if they weren't discarded, anyway) as soon as Seismitoad is gone. The problem here is that you will need to supply other attackers and additional energy to power them, which as you said will cut into the deck's space for disruption and Super Scoop Up. There is merit to this, but it isn't nearly as obnoxious as "throwing your deck at your opponent" and then recycling, everything. This isn't failsafe. A good player can of course play conservatively and provide disruption at the most critical moments. There's just big consequences of getting too many tails, especially with the space these cards take up, since they can't be recovered.

 

[Otaku]

This is essentially how decks like Yveltal and Big Basics with Seismitoad function. They will use Quaking Punch early game to slow their opponent down while setting up stronger attackers to overwhelm the opponent. This isn't a flawless strategy, as a player can simple drop all their items (if they weren't discarded, anyway) as soon as Seismitoad is gone. The problem here is that you will need to supply other attackers and additional energy to power them, which as you said will cut into the deck's space for disruption and Super Scoop Up. There is merit to this, but it isn't nearly as obnoxious as "throwing your deck at your opponent" and then recycling, everything. This isn't failsafe. A good player can of course play conservatively and provide disruption at the most critical moments. There's just big consequences of getting too many tails, especially with the space these cards take up, since they can't be recovered.

Isn't that basically what I was saying?

Alternate strategies. I didn't mean it had to be something "new", just not the current dominant continual control tactic we see in decks like Seismitoad-EX/Shaymin-EX (ROS) or Seismitoad-EX/Slurpuff (PHF).

Besides just using Seismitoad-EX/Garbodor (Garbotoxin) or Seismitoad-EX/Big Basics or Seismitoad-EX/Big Basics/Garbodor (Garbotoxin) or other similar variants. we might see the Crobat variant or Crawdaunt variant show up some more. While those decks preferred being able to recycle their copies of Super Scoop Up, even should all four fail those decks still gain the advantage of their initial play. AZ, Cassius and/or the much more difficult combo of Sky Field/Sacred Ash (getting them at the right time is the trick) can allow you more reliable replays of the Pokémon involved. Still, the Big Basics and/or Garbodor variants seem like the safest and if you can make room for Red Card you also can make it harder for your opponent to unload a bunch of Items as you end the lock.

 

[Talkingcat]

It's not that complicated, seriously.

1. For a normal deck, just run an extra consistency card. And don't deck out, doofus.
2, For a normal deck that is especially prone to running out of resources of a certain type, like how old Fairy decks ran out of energy or Garchomp Altaria can be messed up by losing one of the evolution chain early, add the specific card that gets the resource back, like energy retrieval or sacred ash. And don't deck out, doofus.
3. For a speed deck, either tone down the speed draw cards a little, or keep them in and play more cautiously. And don't deck out, doofus.

Not decking out is so simple. Just be a little thoughtful. Don't dump hands full of resources just in the hope of getting a slightly better card you don't really need. Don't burn two cards to ultraball for a Pokemon you don't really need. Be willing not to dump amd draw sometimes because what you would give up, compared to what you would gain, is not worth it.

 

[TheStrictNein]

It's not that complicated, seriously.

1. For a normal deck, just run an extra consistency card. And don't deck out, doofus.
2, For a normal deck that is especially prone to running out of resources of a certain type, like how old Fairy decks ran out of energy or Garchomp Altaria can be messed up by losing one of the evolution chain early, add the specific card that gets the resource back, like energy retrieval or sacred ash. And don't deck out, doofus.
3. For a speed deck, either tone down the speed draw cards a little, or keep them in and play more cautiously. And don't deck out, doofus.

Not decking out is so simple. Just be a little thoughtful. Don't dump hands full of resources just in the hope of getting a slightly better card you don't really need. Don't burn two cards to ultraball for a Pokemon you don't really need. Be willing not to dump amd draw sometimes because what you would give up, compared to what you would gain, is not worth it.

Not decking out is a matter of my play style. I'm a slower player, and I like the late game comeback. It's not necessarily being able to cycle certain things back in or being able to churn through cards, it's the extra turns added.

As such, I need the ability to keep recycling cards for turns rather than use. Which is where my deck building problems come from.

Also, do you know how useless it is to post something like "don't deck out, doofus?". Tell me how, give me advice. Don't just call me an idiot and laugh in your ivory tower.

 

[Camoclone]

Not decking out is a matter of my play style. I'm a slower player, and I like the late game comeback. It's not necessarily being able to cycle certain things back in or being able to churn through cards, it's the extra turns added.

As such, I need the ability to keep recycling cards for turns rather than use. Which is where my deck building problems come from.

I don't think it is a matter of playsyle (in fact I don't believe playstyle exists at all but that is another discussion entirely) as much as it is resource management and careful play. Without LTC you just need to be a lot more conscious.

 

[TheStrictNein]

I don't think it is a matter of playsyle (in fact I don't believe playstyle exists but that is another discussion entirely) as much as it is resource management and careful play. Without LTC you just need to be a lot more conscious. .

Play styles certainly exist, because my slow play style is universal across all games I play.

Resource management fundamentally changes how a deck is built as well. Do I drop to 1 Juniper and put in 3 recovery cards? Do I stick to 4? How does it change the deck? I've only ever learnt from resources and decks built with LTC in and any time I ask for advice about how to base a deck without LTC I just get "don't deck out idiot", the least helpful thing anyone could say.