Discussion Does Dream League/Cosmic Eclipse Silvally GX Replace Dedenne GX?

[Duo]

I've been thinking about this since the new Silvally GX was revealed (has Octillery's Abyssal Hand ability), but I want to open a discussion about whether or not Silvally GX becomes something that is potent enough to replace Dedenne GX.

For those who have not seen/are familiar with the card:

Spoiler: Silvally GX Dream League

Silvally-GX – Colorless – HP210
Stage 1 – Evolves from Type: Null

Ability: Disc Reload
Once during your turn (before your attack), you may draw cards from your deck until you have 5 cards in your hand.

[C][C] Buddy Brave: 50+ damage. If you played a Supporter card from your hand during your turn, this attack does 70 more damage.

[C][C] White Knight GX: If your opponent’s Active Pokemon is an Ultra Beast, that Pokemon is Knocked Out. (You can’t use more than 1 GX attack in a game.)

When your Pokemon-GX is Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.

Weakness: Fighting (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 2

I want to start by looking at some pros and cons of both cards.

Dedenne GX

+Is a basic Pokemon that can be slapped down on turn 1 of the game for the ability.
+Gets you to 6 cards in hand every time you play it.
+Fixes bricked hands as a discard draw as opposed to a "draw until you have" type.
+Particularly good in Electric GX decks running EM Radar.

-One time use ability and must be played from hand.
-160 HP dies to the 170 snipe damage of PikaRom's GX attack and Naganadel GX
-Discarding your hand is not the always the best as it can lead to throwing out valuable resources (I still remember the Worlds match where someone Sycamored away 3 VS Seekers on Turn 1 and ended up losing because he couldn't recycle supporters later in the game).

Silvally GX

+Has a repeatable ability that, if played in multiples, can be used multiple times per turn as well.
+2 colorless cost on attacks makes it usuable as back up attacker in any deck, including a potential freebie on any Ultra Beast.
+210 HP is high enough to disable 170 bench damage sniping which makes it a much safer bench sitter.
+Laughs at Reset Stamp's face.

-Stage 1 Pokemon which adds clutter to any deck. 1/1 lines are usually too thin and inconsistent while 2/2 lines eat up a lot of space. Running 2/1 feels terrible with the 1 is prized.
-The ability is useless when you brick and can't play down lower than 5.
-Harder to set up since non-GX Pokemon are harder to find nowadays.


Things that both of them do:

1. Both are GX Pokemon able to get snatched up by Great Catcher (which will be out by the time Silvally GX is out which is why I mention it) as two "free prizes." But if your opponent has the freedom to KO either Dedenne GX or Silvally GX any sooner than as the last 2 prizes of the game, then that means you aren't applying pressure and are losing because of other reasons.

2. Both are weak to Fighting, so there is never a concern of one being better than the other due to the typing saturation of any format.

3. Both can be found by Cherish Ball.


I'm not taking Silvally GX's Pokemon Tools into account because that requires significant deck space reworking and is not relevant to the discussion of playing it as a utility Pokemon. If you're playing the Tools, you're focusing more on the attack than the ability - I'm more interested in the ability.

As for my current stance, I think exactly only EM Radar decks should be holding onto Dedenne GX after Silvally GX releases. I think that single convenience makes it worth it for the speed. Otherwise, 1/1 or 2/2 Silvally GX is the way to go.

I think that Professor Oak's Setting has reason to become the new best turn 1 supporter which is why I think Silvally GX is a worthwhile replacement. There are currently no particularly meta relevant normal type Pokemon, and every deck is already running their primary type which is 2/3 types to satisfy the play conditions. If you have good reason to run a 3rd type (oh, for example TinaChomp, Inkay, Type: Null) then you have yourself a really good start to a set up, particularly in an environment where searching for Pokemon is no longer easy or universal.

Would like to hear what other people are thinking about the topic.

 

[CrownAxe]

Octillery didn't replace Shaymin EX when it came out and it was even a 1 prize pokemon

 

[Bobohippo]

I'd say no because with Dedechange it gets unwanted cards out of your hand and in a format where it is hard to deplete hand size I'd say Silvally GX in more of a hindrance on a deck than not. Plus you could play 3 dedenne gx or 2 type nulls and 1 silvally. Seems more reasonable to have 3 draw engines rather than just 1.

 

[The Almighty Bidoof]

I think you'd run both. Dedenne for early game, Silvally for late game (prolly a 1-1 or 2-1 line)

 

[Duo]

Octillery didn't replace Shaymin EX when it came out and it was even a 1 prize pokemon

My only beef with this comment is that the current (well, upcoming rather) card environment is not the same as Shaymin EX & Octillery era.

There are going to be 3 attackers (PikaRom, Naganadel GX, ReshiKrom), all of which seem viable for play post rotation, that can very easily bench snipe 170 damage to OHKO Dedenne GX for some premature closure to games. Yes, Mew exists, but not every deck can viably run Mew at 1 copy and actually see it often enough to prevent this.

There's also Reset Stamp which can win games, and I believe that card is currently a 1-2 of in every Japanese deck and likely will see similar play over here. Yes, N was a thing as well, but the fact that Reset Stamp is both an item that can be played alongside your supporter for turn and only one-sided makes it far more incapacitating.

I no longer remember the draw support environment around the time both Shaymin EX and Octillery were available in standard, but I don't think saying that "it didn't happen then, so it won't happen now" is a particularly sound argument when the card pool is very different. I would otherwise agree with you if the tools we have available now are exactly the same as back then.


Thinking about it some more, I think running both is probably correct, but I'm concerned about deck space. I would probably personally run a 1/1/1 Dedenne/Type:Null/Silvally GX myself. That way I have both early game set up power and mid-late game continuity/resist to Reset Stamp.

 

[CrownAxe]

@Duo I think the card environment was worse for shaymin then it is dedenne. For one Lysandre was a staple in the format so every deck could reliably snipe benched Shaymin EXs, not just a meager 3 decks with a sniping attack. N was also definitely more powerful then Reset Stamp. The item to supporter distinction is really minor considering N is also drawing you cards which is generally what your supporter for the turn does anyway so really isn't a big difference. But the 4x VS Seeker every deck played is because it means that getting N'ed to low hand sizes late game is much for consistent then it is with 1-2 reset stamps.

 

[Duo]

So when both players have 1-2 prizes remaining you mean to tell me that playing N is a good play? I basically never played N when I'm 3 or less prize cards because I'm hurting myself just as much as my opponent. The only valid reason to play N in a situation like that is when my board state is already better than my opponent's so I can afford the loss of hand size, but if my board state is better than my opponent's then why am I behind on prizes in the first place? Reset Stamp dropping your opponent to 1-2 while I get to play any draw supporter to stay at 6+ cards instead of falling to 6 or less (usually 4-5) is a colossal difference in hand size and has the ability to swing board state and control of the game in my favor, not just equalize hand sizes. Or to be a little more specific, in the case of a ReshiKrom deck, they can Reset Stamp their opponent to 1-2 hand, play Welder, draw 3 cards, and get enough energy to swing for 270 damage (2 from welder + 1 from attach for turn) to OHKO just about anything, all in the same turn. Stuff like this is why Reset Stamp being an item and not a supporter is very significant. It's not like we lack draw supporters or draw power in general in our upcoming format.

Calling 3 decks meager is also not particularly fair. It's like if I called Malamar, PikaRom, and Reshizard "3 meager decks" in the current format. If even one deck has presence in a format, you are forced to consider it when building a deck. I don't expect Naganadel GX to do that well outside of being a one of in some Mewthree decks, but if PikaRom and ReshiKrom have good presence in the meta because they have significant utilities and other attacks that make them far more viable than simply bench sniping, then those 3 "meager decks" taking up a "meager" 20-30% of the meta distribution is something no player can ignore while deck building. People put up to 3 field blowers in every ability deck just to counter garbotoxin back when it was a thing in standard. Go back to every decklist discussion during the Garbotoxin era and anyone who was playing less than 2 was advised to increase their field blower counts not because choice band and float stone was in every deck - but because you might run into Garbodor and autolose if you don't. Being a staple and being highly impactful are two completely different things. An entire Greninja BREAK deck can be shut down by a single Giratina Promo card, and that's no staple.

Lysandre was a staple, but you aren't KOing a Shaymin EX or any utility Pokemon prior to taking the last 1-2 prizes as KOing bench sitters does nothing to lessen your opponent's board pressure. It's the same thing as Guzmaing a Lele. You also aren't drawing any cards on a Lysandre turn, so you have to be able to follow up if it's not a game closing play. You also can't call it a snipe when Lysandre pulls things to the active. The whole point of sniping is to ignore the need for gusting.

PikaRom on the other hand can take out both a primary attacker and a utility Pokemon like Dedenne out at the same time for 4-5 prizes in one swing while reducing your opponent's board pressure at the same time, and ReshiKrom can punish 2 bench sitters at the same time to close out the game from 3-4 prizes instead of 1-2. Being able to win from 1 attack that takes 4+ prizes is way heavier than Lysandring for 2 prizes.

Not trying to disrespect your opinion, but I feel like you're counting things out before they happen, and inversely I could be overestimating how potent some of these things will be in practice. Time will tell, but clearly I don't really agree with your angle on this-and-that when it comes to then and now.

 

[AuraJackle]

Only thing I feel the need to correct is that the correct name for reshiram zekrom is reshizek and that's it GX move is not gonna be its main draw or even used that often

 

[CrownAxe]

So when both players have 1-2 prizes remaining you mean to tell me that playing N is a good play? I basically never played N when I'm 3 or less prize cards because I'm hurting myself just as much as my opponent. The only valid reason to play N in a situation like that is when my board state is already better than my opponent's so I can afford the loss of hand size, but if my board state is better than my opponent's then why am I behind on prizes in the first place? Reset Stamp dropping your opponent to 1-2 while I get to play any draw supporter to stay at 6+ cards instead of falling to 6 or less (usually 4-5) is a colossal difference in hand size and has the ability to swing board state and control of the game in my favor, not just equalize hand sizes. Or to be a little more specific, in the case of a ReshiKrom deck, they can Reset Stamp their opponent to 1-2 hand, play Welder, draw 3 cards, and get enough energy to swing for 270 damage (2 from welder + 1 from attach for turn) to OHKO just about anything, all in the same turn. Stuff like this is why Reset Stamp being an item and not a supporter is very significant. It's not like we lack draw supporters or draw power in general in our upcoming format.

Yes N'ing both players down to 1-2 is a good play. You get to do it on your terms so you can prepare for it before you play N while your opponent doesn't so it's always a net positive. The only times you shouldn't play N is if your board state is so poor that you need to dig for cards just to get on the table in the first place. Getting rid of your opponent's hand is so powerful that give up drawing cards to the turn is still worth it.

Calling 3 decks meager is also not particularly fair. It's like if I called Malamar, PikaRom, and Reshizard "3 meager decks" in the current format. If even one deck has presence in a format, you are forced to consider it when building a deck. I don't expect Naganadel GX to do that well outside of being a one of in some Mewthree decks, but if PikaRom and ReshiKrom have good presence in the meta because they have significant utilities and other attacks that make them far more viable than simply bench sniping, then those 3 "meager decks" taking up a "meager" 20-30% of the meta distribution is something no player can ignore while deck building. People put up to 3 field blowers in every ability deck just to counter garbotoxin back when it was a thing in standard. Go back to every decklist discussion during the Garbotoxin era and anyone who was playing less than 2 was advised to increase their field blower counts not because choice band and float stone was in every deck - but because you might run into Garbodor and autolose if you don't. Being a staple and being highly impactful are two completely different things. An entire Greninja BREAK deck can be shut down by a single Giratina Promo card, and that's no staple.

It's basic math. 100% of decks being able to KO a benched Shaymin is more then 3 deck of the meta being able to KO a benched Dedenne and thus makes the meta for Shaymin worse by comparison. It doesn't matter what percentage of the meta those 3 decks take up, it will still be less then 100%.And people still ran the Shaymin anyway

Lysandre was a staple, but you aren't KOing a Shaymin EX or any utility Pokemon prior to taking the last 1-2 prizes as KOing bench sitters does nothing to lessen your opponent's board pressure. It's the same thing as Guzmaing a Lele. You also aren't drawing any cards on a Lysandre turn, so you have to be able to follow up if it's not a game closing play. You also can't call it a snipe when Lysandre pulls things to the active. The whole point of sniping is to ignore the need for gusting.

PikaRom on the other hand can take out both a primary attacker and a utility Pokemon like Dedenne out at the same time for 4-5 prizes in one swing while reducing your opponent's board pressure at the same time, and ReshiKrom can punish 2 bench sitters at the same time to close out the game from 3-4 prizes instead of 1-2. Being able to win from 1 attack that takes 4+ prizes is way heavier than Lysandring for 2 prizes.

You know there is a bunch of arguments I could make but they don't matter for one simple reason. There is no way to counter Lysandre to prevent a benched Shaymin from getting KOed, but I can put a bench barrier Mew on the field and make Dedenne completely safe from those sniping attacks you're a raving so much about. And just like your example with Field Blower to stop Garbotoxin, i suspect almost everyone will be running Mew just to counter Pikarom and ReshiZek.

Again my point is that the field for Dedenne is much better then it was for Shaymin