Pokemon Discussion: Are Riolu and Togepi Baby Pokemon

[jessalakasam]

So I got in an argument in the YouTube comments section of a video about whether or not these 2 were baby Pokemon
Here's my proof against it:
No official confirmation to prove they are (although they could say the same)
The TCG doesn't list them as babies (Specifically in Neo sets the babies were babies not basics however, togepi was a basic not a baby and neither have them have ever had 'baby evolution' or 'sweet sleeping face' pokebodies)


Any arguments for:
They can't breed (so what neither can Nidorina, Nidoqueen, or Type: Null
They're cute (I actually got this argument at least 5 times XD)
Websites say they are (the websites themselves don't site any sources to prove they are )



So what do you guys think?

 

[bbninjas]

I think that the TCG is going to be most likely accurate regarding which Pokemon are Babies and which are not, to be honest. Interestingly, a lot Baby Pokemon parents do need to hold a certain incense whilst breeding to breed said Baby Pokemon. There are some that evade this rule, but most fall under it. Another thing to note is that in The Brockster Is In!, the nursery teacher had the following Pokemon under her care: Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Teddiursa, Azurill, Smoochum and Wynaut. All of those, except for Teddiursa, are considered Baby Pokemon. Does this mean that Teddiursa is also a Baby?

Apparently this is the criteria that most sites classify Baby Pokemon by:

• Must be obtainable by breeding.
• Must be the lowest form in a family chain and must be able to evolve at least once.
• Must belong to the Undiscovered Egg Group.

By this definition, Riolu and Togepi are Babies. However, if you add a fourth criteria:

• Must be introduced in a generation proceeding the generation its parent was introduced in.

Then Riolu and Togepi are the two commonly classified Baby Pokemon that would now not be Babies. So I suppose it depends on how you would define it.

 

[jessalakasam]

I think that the TCG is going to be most likely accurate regarding which Pokemon are Babies and which are not, to be honest. Interestingly, a lot Baby Pokemon parents do need to hold a certain incense whilst breeding to breed said Baby Pokemon. There are some that evade this rule, but most fall under it. Another thing to note is that in The Brockster Is In!, the nursery teacher had the following Pokemon under her care: Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Teddiursa, Azurill, Smoochum and Wynaut. All of those, except for Teddiursa, are considered Baby Pokemon. Does this mean that Teddiursa is also a Baby?

Apparently this is the criteria that most sites classify Baby Pokemon by:

• Must be obtainable by breeding.
• Must be the lowest form in a family chain and must be able to evolve at least once.
• Must belong to the Undiscovered Egg Group.

By this definition, Riolu and Togepi are Babies. However, if you add a fourth criteria:

• Must be introduced in a generation proceeding the generation its parent was introduced in.

Then Riolu and Togepi are the two commonly classified Baby Pokemon that would now not be Babies. So I suppose it depends on how you would define it.

I agree with basically everything you said, although, I don't think the anime is canon, but people say the same about the TCG so I don't know lol

 

[Celever]

I think that the TCG is going to be most likely accurate regarding which Pokemon are Babies and which are not, to be honest. Interestingly, a lot Baby Pokemon parents do need to hold a certain incense whilst breeding to breed said Baby Pokemon. There are some that evade this rule, but most fall under it. Another thing to note is that in The Brockster Is In!, the nursery teacher had the following Pokemon under her care: Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Teddiursa, Azurill, Smoochum and Wynaut. All of those, except for Teddiursa, are considered Baby Pokemon. Does this mean that Teddiursa is also a Baby?

Apparently this is the criteria that most sites classify Baby Pokemon by:

• Must be obtainable by breeding.
• Must be the lowest form in a family chain and must be able to evolve at least once.
• Must belong to the Undiscovered Egg Group.

By this definition, Riolu and Togepi are Babies. However, if you add a fourth criteria:

• Must be introduced in a generation proceeding the generation its parent was introduced in.

Then Riolu and Togepi are the two commonly classified Baby Pokemon that would now not be Babies. So I suppose it depends on how you would define it.

That fourth clause certainly doesn't make sense. After all, Mantyke is a baby Pokemon in all even semi-canonical sources, and it was introduced in Generation IV, two generations after Mantine. The same can be said for Munchlax, released three generations after Snorlax. Happiny and Mime Jr. were released 3 generations after Chansey and Mr. Mime, too. Even Bonsly was released two generations after Sudowoodo. Riolu and Togepi were released in the same generation as Lucario, and Tyrogue in the same generation as one of its evolutions: Hitmontop. Only 56% of Baby Pokémon were released the generation after their parents, so including that arbitrary clause kind of changes the whole definition and lineup, and certainly isn't a logical argument to make.

The anime example is also weak, because it could all totally be a coincidence. Baby Pokémon are designed as marketing tools to be incredibly cute, and Teddiursa certainly fits this description. If Teddiursa were a Baby Pokémon I don't think it'd look out of place, so the animators likely just decided on some cute Pokémon to give to the nursery teacher, and most of them ended up being Baby Pokémon. There's no reason to look further into it.

The definition of a Baby Pokémon is that it must be obtainable by breeding, and after Generation II its parents have to hold an incense to get you unless you're Riolu, cannot breed itself and can evolve 1 or more times. That's actually it, and as the games are the one true canon, as that's the only thing GameFreak themselves work on. Therefore, Riolu and Togepi are unquestionably Baby Pokémon. If you needed more evidence, Togepi has been included in the Generation II Baby Pokémon release in Pokémon GO. Mistakes and misprints happen in the TCG, but that doesn't take away their status forever.

 

[bbninjas]

That fourth clause certainly doesn't make sense. After all, Mantyke is a baby Pokemon in all even semi-canonical sources, and it was introduced in Generation IV, two generations after Mantine. The same can be said for Munchlax, released three generations after Snorlax. Happiny and Mime Jr. were released 3 generations after Chansey and Mr. Mime, too. Even Bonsly was released two generations after Sudowoodo. Riolu and Togepi were released in the same generation as Lucario, and Tyrogue in the same generation as one of its evolutions: Hitmontop. Only 56% of Baby Pokémon were released the generation after their parents, so including that arbitrary clause kind of changes the whole definition and lineup, and certainly isn't a logical argument to make.

I think you misread my clause; I wasn't proposing that Baby Pokemon have to be in the generation directly after their parents, rather any of the generations after. I'm pretty sure that Riolu and Togepi are the only ones that were released in the same generation as their parents (Tyrogue still has parents not introduced in the same generation).

 

[Celever]

I think you misread my clause; I wasn't proposing that Baby Pokemon have to be in the generation directly after their parents, rather any of the generations after. I'm pretty sure that Riolu and Togepi are the only ones that were released in the same generation as their parents (Tyrogue still has parents not introduced in the same generation).

It's still an odd clause to include as it has no effect on gameplay and nothing in any Pokémon media hints at it. And Tyrogue definitely still counts as an anomaly, because Hitmontop was very much created because of Tyrogue, whereas the clause you came up with implies babies are exclusively an afterthought to existent parents.

 

[jessalakasam]

It's still an odd clause to include as it has no effect on gameplay and nothing in any Pokémon media hints at it. And Tyrogue definitely still counts as an anomaly, because Hitmontop was very much created because of Tyrogue, whereas the clause you came up with implies babies are exclusively an afterthought to existent parents.

But, nothing in any Pokemon Media hints toward your criteria being the actual criteria to determine whether or not a pokemon is a baby

 

[Celever]

But, nothing in any Pokemon Media hints toward your criteria being the actual criteria to determine whether or not a pokemon is a baby

It's a fan-made term adopted by the developers, so naturally there isn't an interview or the like where GameFreak has said "Togepi and Riolu are Baby Pokémon and a Baby Pokémon is _____". The argument simply doesn't make sense to use because it supports neither of us; there isn't a party line.

But Baby Pokémon are grouped together based on gameplay effects. That's where all of these terms come from, as the game is the true Pokémon media. In Generation II, the term Baby Pokémon came to mean a Pokémon who couldn't breed, and was given to the player by an NPC in the form of an egg. This includes Togepi. There is no reason to revoke a Pokémon's baby status in future generations, so Togepi is a Baby Pokémon.

Riolu is the more difficult case, but it is a Baby Pokémon as per the Generation II definition. It is obtainable only through an NPC giving it to you in the form of an egg in the games in which it was introduced, and is unbreedable. This gives it the status of Baby Pokémon.

The confusion seems to lie in the fact that there are two distinct criteria to make a Pokémon a Baby Pokémon. The criteria I gave earlier was a list of similarities between both criteria, which fans paraphrase the two groups into to save time. As justification is apparently necessary, though... the first criteria is simply that through breeding, the Pokémon will only come out of an egg if the parent is holding an incense. This is true for Azurill, Munchlax, Wynaut, Budew, Chingling, Happiny, Bonsly, Mime Jr. and Mantyke. The other definition is that the Pokémon is only obtainable through having it gifted to the player by an NPC in the form of an egg in the generation the Pokémon is introduced in. This is the case for Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Tyrogue, Smoochum, Magby, Elekid, and, of course, Togepi and Riolu. Neither group of Baby Pokémon can breed themselves. To claim Togepi and Riolu only makes sense if you claim Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Tyrogue, Smoochum, Magby and Elekid aren't Baby Pokémon either, and this card shows that Pichu certainly is. To claim Togepi and Riolu aren't Baby Pokémon is not only non-sensical... it's flat out wrong.

 

[jessalakasam]

It's a fan-made term adopted by the developers, so naturally there isn't an interview or the like where GameFreak has said "Togepi and Riolu are Baby Pokémon and a Baby Pokémon is _____". The argument simply doesn't make sense to use because it supports neither of us; there isn't a party line.

But Baby Pokémon are grouped together based on gameplay effects. That's where all of these terms come from, as the game is the true Pokémon media. In Generation II, the term Baby Pokémon came to mean a Pokémon who couldn't breed, and was given to the player by an NPC in the form of an egg. This includes Togepi. There is no reason to revoke a Pokémon's baby status in future generations, so Togepi is a Baby Pokémon.

Riolu is the more difficult case, but it is a Baby Pokémon as per the Generation II definition. It is obtainable only through an NPC giving it to you in the form of an egg in the games in which it was introduced, and is unbreedable. This gives it the status of Baby Pokémon.

The confusion seems to lie in the fact that there are two distinct criteria to make a Pokémon a Baby Pokémon. The criteria I gave earlier was a list of similarities between both criteria, which fans paraphrase the two groups into to save time. As justification is apparently necessary, though... the first criteria is simply that through breeding, the Pokémon will only come out of an egg if the parent is holding an incense. This is true for Azurill, Munchlax, Wynaut, Budew, Chingling, Happiny, Bonsly, Mime Jr. and Mantyke. The other definition is that the Pokémon is only obtainable through having it gifted to the player by an NPC in the form of an egg in the generation the Pokémon is introduced in. This is the case for Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Tyrogue, Smoochum, Magby, Elekid, and, of course, Togepi and Riolu. Neither group of Baby Pokémon can breed themselves. To claim Togepi and Riolu only makes sense if you claim Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Tyrogue, Smoochum, Magby and Elekid aren't Baby Pokémon either, and this card shows that Pichu certainly is. To claim Togepi and Riolu aren't Baby Pokémon is not only non-sensical... it's flat out wrong.

Baby pokemon is not a fan-made term, it was used as early as 1999 in Japan in the set Neo Genesis...

 

[Celever]

Baby pokemon is not a fan-made term, it was used as early as 1999 in Japan in the set Neo Genesis...

It was adopted by TPCi, as I said in the post. Even if it was created by GameFreak, it doesn't change the how factual the rest of the post was lol.

 

[jessalakasam]

It was adopted by TPCi, as I said in the post. Even if it was created by GameFreak, it doesn't change the how factual the rest of the post was lol.

But you said they were grouped by gameplay mechanics, how come Togepi and Riolu have always had different mechanics in the TCG from the rest of them

 

[Celever]

But you said they were grouped by gameplay mechanics, how come Togepi and Riolu have always had different mechanics in the TCG from the rest of them

Because the TCG is a side medium of the actual games. Baby Pokémon are also oftentimes created for advertising and promotional material, such as as Munchlax and Bonsly featuring in Pokémon XD: Gales of Darkness. Togepi was introduced in the Gen I anime for the exact same reason. If all mediums agree on a stance besides one arbitrary one, which the developers have no relationship with, the evidence is insignificant in comparison with the rest of the franchise.

They're grouped by gameplay in the actual video games. The TCG doesn't matter as far as this is concerned.

Finally, as this discussion doesn't have much value (it's very much one answer) and your replies are only one line long, if you want to continue the conversation feel free to PM me. Other members can also feel free to chime in if they feel they have something new to add as I won't lock the thread or anything... this discussion just doesn't really need to be on display, as I've already begun repeating myself.

 

[VinculumStellarum]

I don't think the anime is canon

I would argue against this, at least to a certain extent. While the characters and settings may not exactly be like that of the games (and for what I think is a good reason too), one thing that has always been consistent, as far as I know, are the depictions of Pokémon. While the games don't give much insight on their mannerisms, we see this expanded upon in the anime, giving detail that wouldn't have been seen in the games.

That being said, I do believe Riolu and Togepi are Baby Pokémon––I'm just not entirely sure how to put that into words. How I can put it is this: They don't seem like they're meant to anything but, especially Togepi. The others who have replied here have said it much better than I have.

The TCG doesn't matter as far as this is concerned.

I'm going to agree with this. In the TCG, Babies were very short-lived. They were in the Gen II sets classified as actual Baby Pokémon, getting their own rule and everything. They returned in the HGSS sets, but were downgraded to Basic Pokémon with a shared Poké Body. Recent TCG sets have completely abandoned the idea (and I don't think any of the Baby Pokémon have had reprints with the exception of––you guessed it––Togepi and Riolu), so it doesn't make too much of an impact.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents. I don't know if I have anything else to say on this matter.

 

[PMJ]

Togepi and Riolu aren't babies and I will fight anyone on this. Come at me Celever.

The TCG is a valid source because it's an official product. Just because the games came first doesn't mean that the TCG is completely irrelevant. Sure, you can argue attack names and stuff, but no one is asking about that. Pokemon doesn't take liberties in the TCG with the important things from the games, i.e. Bulbasaur will always evolve into Ivysaur and not Ditto or something. Charizard is always what the game refers to as a Stage 2 Pokemon. Stuff like that.

In the TCG, neither Togepi nor Riolu have ever been referred to as babies and have never been treated like they are. Cleffa, Pichu, and Togepi were all in Neo Genesis together. Guess who wasn't a Baby Pokemon? Togepi. Out of all the Pokemon you term as Baby Pokemon, which one is the only one who still has cards made and isn't just a dumb gimmick card because it's not actually a Baby Pokemon? Togepi.

The fact that you only get one means nothing. The fact that it hatches from an egg that you are given means nothing (all Pokemon hatch from eggs). Game mechanics are put in place to limit the player in some way and doesn't necessarily mean it is exactly true everywhere. Take legendary Pokemon for example. In the games you are limited to one per game but we know, thanks to the anime, that legendary Pokemon do breed and are not the only ones of their kind in the world. It would be dumb for you to catch infinity Mewtwos or whatever, so the game limits you to one.

And then there's Riolu. How many Riolu cards have we gotten? Oh, a billion, because it's not a baby. Diamond & Pearl (the set) featured Riolu on top of every baby under the sun, but Riolu wasn't one of them. When Togekiss debuted a couple sets later, Togepi still wasn't a baby.

Lucario and Togetic are consistently portrayed as Stage 1 Pokemon, no different from any other "normal" Stage 1. This isn't a fluke or a one-off thing - it's happened every time. Meanwhile, Electabuzz and Mr. Mime and all the other basics that evolve from actual babies are still Basic Pokemon, as intended. To claim Togepi and Riolu are Baby Pokémon is not only non-sensical... it's flat out wrong.

 

[Celever]

Togepi and Riolu aren't babies and I will fight anyone on this. Come at me Celever.

The TCG is a valid source because it's an official product. Just because the games came first doesn't mean that the TCG is completely irrelevant. Sure, you can argue attack names and stuff, but no one is asking about that. Pokemon doesn't take liberties in the TCG with the important things from the games, i.e. Bulbasaur will always evolve into Ivysaur and not Ditto or something. Charizard is always what the game refers to as a Stage 2 Pokemon. Stuff like that.

In the TCG, neither Togepi nor Riolu have ever been referred to as babies and have never been treated like they are. Cleffa, Pichu, and Togepi were all in Neo Genesis together. Guess who wasn't a Baby Pokemon? Togepi. Out of all the Pokemon you term as Baby Pokemon, which one is the only one who still has cards made and isn't just a dumb gimmick card because it's not actually a Baby Pokemon? Togepi.

The fact that you only get one means nothing. The fact that it hatches from an egg that you are given means nothing (all Pokemon hatch from eggs). Game mechanics are put in place to limit the player in some way and doesn't necessarily mean it is exactly true everywhere. Take legendary Pokemon for example. In the games you are limited to one per game but we know, thanks to the anime, that legendary Pokemon do breed and are not the only ones of their kind in the world. It would be dumb for you to catch infinity Mewtwos or whatever, so the game limits you to one.

And then there's Riolu. How many Riolu cards have we gotten? Oh, a billion, because it's not a baby. Diamond & Pearl (the set) featured Riolu on top of every baby under the sun, but Riolu wasn't one of them. When Togekiss debuted a couple sets later, Togepi still wasn't a baby.

Lucario and Togetic are consistently portrayed as Stage 1 Pokemon, no different from any other "normal" Stage 1. This isn't a fluke or a one-off thing - it's happened every time. Meanwhile, Electabuzz and Mr. Mime and all the other basics that evolve from actual babies are still Basic Pokemon, as intended. To claim Togepi and Riolu are Baby Pokémon is not only non-sensical... it's flat out wrong.

This isn't a discussion to do with Togepi or Riolu, it's just "TCG vs everything else is it a valid canon". The reason why I say TCG isn't as valid a source of information as the rest of the franchise outlets is because TPCi themselves don't make the cards, and nor does GameFreak. PCL makes the cards, and there isn't a great deal of communication between GameFreak, TPCi and PCL. PCL's opinion when it comes to classify Baby Pokémon has nothing to do with the stalwart opinion of the people who actually created Baby Pokémon, so it's about as canon as one of those Nintendo-commissioned third party guides which says Weedle evolves into Venomoth and Brock is the champion of Kanto.

Baby Pokémon have an effect on game mechanics and is a way to refer to a bunch of cute Pokémon created for marketing. Arbitrary evolutionary chains in one facet of the franchise is a tiny molecule of information saying Riolu and Togepi aren't Baby Pokémon when every other medium very much supports their status as one means that, unless the TCG is your Bible, the Pokémon are babies.

 

[PMJ]

Do you honestly think that PCL has consistently put out incorrect information and TPCI has just let them do it, even though they've done it consistently since 1999 or whenever genesis came out? Get real.

And as far as the whole dumb champion Brock thing, that's an example of a one-off thing that probably happened in 1996 and has never happened again, unlike Togepi and Riolu who are not babies and have never been treated as one. And yes this argument is about whether or not they're babies. It's literally the title of the thread.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

The concept of Baby Pokemon has a lot less meaning now than it used to, originally Baby Pokemon were only obtainable by breeding but since 4th gen baby Pokemon have been catchable in the wild so it really doesn't mean a whole lot nowadays. To answer the question though, no, I don't consider them Baby Pokemon. That fourth criteria @bbninjas mentioned is the only one that really holds any meaning anymore and it's pretty much the whole point of Baby Pokemon to begin with.