Discussion Dealing with Energy Dump Decks

Discussion in 'PTCG Competitive Play' started by crystal_pidgeot, Jan 22, 2017.

  1. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    In my area, Fairy and Turbo Darkrai/Yveltal became really popular because of their unlimited damage output and it has become a problem. It doesn't seem like problem any one card can fix really because the techs just get knocked out in a single hit. What options exist that can control the damage of these decks that aren't completely luck based, like Crushing Hammer?

    With the Fairy decks, it seems like you just lose if they get two Geomancy, you just lose due to no fault to of your own with techs not even being enough. The same is true for turbo dark decks but I find them much more manageable since they can miss Max Elixir and don't have Mega Turbo but the same thing remains that these decks are just too powerful since there is nothing that can really be done to stop this style of play and it just ends up being a game of solitary if they manage to get nine energy in play, often in the first two turns.

    Now I'm not the type to complain about something without trying to learn. After all that is the fun of the game but I'm not seeing any options I have to defend against this. I was looking at Umbreon-GX but its GX attack isn't strong enough since they can just reattach them. Are there any other cards that can control energy dump decks that don't involve Pokemon being active and can hit basic energy?
     


  2. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    As an update, I have found the following cards that can punish Energy;

    Beheeyem 74/162

    Mind Bullet does 20 damage to one of your opponent's Pokemon for each energy on it. Punishes Regirock with the Ancient Trait.

    Crawdaunt 92/160

    Ability - Unruly Claw

    Discards an energy attached to your opponent's active Pokemon when you put it into play.

    Dragonite-EX 72/108

    Hyper Beam

    Discards a energy attached to the opponent's active Pokemon

    Pinsir 6/149 (S/M)

    Roof Fling

    If you flip heads, you can return the active Pokemon and all cards attached to it back to your opponent's hand.

    Raticate 67/108

    Crunch

    Discards a energy on the active Pokemon.

    Registeel 51/98

    Forbidden Iron Hammer

    Discards an energy on the active EX. I tried it and its too slow but still a option.

    Umbreon-GX

    GX attack

    Discards 2 of your opponent's energy.

    Crushing Hammer

    Too flippy but might be the best option.

    Team Flare Grunt

    Discards energy attached to the active Pokemon, Combos well with Hammers


    I can't really find anything better than Crushing Hammer but it seems to random for the matchups I need them for. I really hate putting games in a coin flip.
     
  3. Otaku The wise fool?
    Otaku

    Member

    They may be unappealing, but many of the very attackers whose use you wish to punish can, in turn, be used to punish similar attackers. Opponent loads up an Yveltal-EX for bear? If you can get your own out there and swinging, it may be able to punish them for it. Not unlike the old Mewtwo-EX wars with the original version of Mewtwo-EX (and sometimes Mew-EX).

    Otherwise, I think it is less a matter of one counter to handle them all but having a deck that only need include a counter for one of these match-ups; the rest being handled by your deck's primary strategy. For example, M Scizor-EX can discard Special Energy itself, and decks using it often include some (or multiple of) the other Energy discarding tricks you mention. Against Fairy Types it even exploits Weakness. Another example might be Mewtwo (XY: Evolutions 51/108); it is really only good for punishing stuff that is super Energy heavy on that specific Pokémon, Psychic Weak, or both. So basically its mostly to counter M Mewtwo-EX... but if that if one can get his or her deck to a place where that is the chief concern, then it works.
     
  4. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    I mean cards that don't force you to play a completely different deck. M Scizor EX doesn't do anything against these decks since they play basic energy. I mean against decks like M Gardevoir EX/ Xerenas BREAK and Darkrai EX, who have energy on the bench but can still get huge attacks. Lugia EX, Yveltal EX and M Mewtwo EX don't do anything against these decks since they have 2/3 energy cost attacks. What I'm looking for is a way to make the matchups more manageable without playing a deck to beat that one match.

    What can I do to make Geomancy less powerful against me or hit Darkrai EX where it hurts.
     
  5. Otaku The wise fool?
    Otaku

    Member

    Some of my suggestions would not require you playing a completely different deck or at least no more than some of your own examples listed in the first post of this thread. You even state that solutions are outside the realm of mere tech, so significantly altering the structure of your deck may be necessary. A deck you aren't specifying, so I can only guess as to whether I have a lot of room or very little. This was also partially about your local metagame, yes? Shifting to a deck that specifically counters these two may be what it takes to "encourage" more folks to move on... after which you may return to your preferred deck.

    Incorrect. M Scizor-EX isn't as effective against Darkrai-EX decks because they do not rely solely on Special Energy; both decks in question are known for running a Dragon Type and Double Dragon Energy or including Double Colorless Energy for an alternate attacker (like Yveltal-EX). If this has completely changed in the current metagame, feel free to share as some of us may be behind. In all cases, M Scizor-EX is a Metal Type and thus can OHKO either M Gardevoir-EX unless that deck takes unusual countermeasures. M Scizor-EX may be too much for most decks to incorporate into a preexisting deck, but it is quite useful against even Fairy Types that rely on only Basic Energy. Also, in both cases discarding the current Stadium card may also be beneficial.

    Correct, I was focused too much on the Yveltal-EX part of Darkrai-EX/Yveltal-EX. I also was a bit confused because (again) look at your own examples; all but two can only discard from the opponent's Active.

    I am uncertain if there is a solution that fits both criteria. For what it is worth, I've been using BRaHon the PTCGO lately, and before that I was on an M Scizor-EX/Garbodor kick and am now debating giving M Scizor-EX/Raticate a try. M Gardevoir-EX (STS) has a favorable match-up against BRaH. The rest seem to be fairly even or in its favor. Same for M Scizor-EX. Again not something to just slip into your current deck, but to keep playing what you really want to use may require temporarily changing.

    Otherwise Puzzle of Time x 2 and Crushing Hammer x 4 in a deck that either is fast and agressive or has additional control/disruption aspects. Kind of wondering how your Pidgeot-EX decks are doing against them, to be honest.
     
  6. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    My deck is having issue dealing with these kind of decks. Things like Yveltal EX and similar decks aren't that big a problem simply because I can control things on that Pokemon. E Hammer and a Team Flare Grunt can slow down Yveltal and make my deck more effective but the problem is these cards don't work against these decks. Team Flare Grunt only works on the active and with things like Mega Turbo, it becomes hard to manage the energy since they just get them back so I'm looking for a way to make them more manageable because they don't work like Yveltal does, since they only need two energy attached to the active and the rest of the energy sitting in the back but I haven't found a real option that isn't luck based to disrupt this style of play. To put this into perspective, everyone at my weekly and league run this kind of deck.
     
  7. Otaku The wise fool?
    Otaku

    Member

    Then show up packing a counter deck, crush them with it, and watch them move onto something else in another week or two... or else go with Crushing Hammer spam (possibly with Puzzle of Time). A lot of space and unreliable, but sadly there isn't much else I think you can do. Well... if specifically plagued by Fairy Type attackers, Magearna-EX and a source of [M] Energy could help. No, it doesn't get rid of that many [F] Energy from the opponent's side of the field, but if you can get one or two easy OHKO's, would the rest of your deck be able to push for the final Prizes you need before your opponent's side of the field becomes overwhelming?

    Oh yes, and in both cases, Lysandre can be your friend. With BRaH (sorry, but again it is what I've been using) these matchups aren't so bad because even as my opponent is attaching Energy after Energy, I'm discarding enough Energy that a OHKO against Houndoom-EX with Fighting Fury Belt isn't likely. The more I discard, the more they might run low on ways to get Energy back. With Raticate, you again focus on getting rid of Energy on the Active until the opponent runs out; as it is a mill deck once they have a stranded Pokémon unable to attack BRaH is likely winning. Not directly actionable advice for you, but maybe it can help you think of an alternate approach?
     
  8. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    I'm looking to add Crushing Hammer to my list and increase my Magearna-EX count. If I can at least control the energy drops, I can better deal with the matchup and keep numbers in my favor. With hammers, I'd just need to get lucky but it prevents my Pokemon from getting KO'ed.
     
  9. Fayld Rayquaza / Eelektross Master
    Fayld

    Member

    I didn't see what you were currently running, but Otaku may have hit on a solution for you in passing with maybe a 2-2 line of Raticate Evolutions. Deck space is always tight, but between Crunch and Shadowy Bite, Raticate can be both an energy disruptor and a cheap hammer depending on the decks you are running against.

    I will be honest, I am not a huge fan of the card without at least one of the break cards shuffled in, but it is an option that hits on all the features you are going for (outside of being a good item / supporter to disrupt energy).

    Another alternative if you can wait for S&M would be to tech in a skarmory from that set. The first attack is CC and knocks all special energy off the board. Last option I can think of might be to use the future S&M Dragonair to simply overwhelm the amount of energy they are putting on with geomancy with your own overwhelming amount of energy. It is attack based, but pretty impressive.
     
  10. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    Special Energy isn't the problem though. They can be dealt with easily but I'm looking for effective ways to deal with the amount of basic Energy these decks can get into play.
     
  11. Fayld Rayquaza / Eelektross Master
    Fayld

    Member

    That Raticate dumps any energy attached to the active pokemon. You use a team flare grunt / hit with a crushing hammer + a [C] Crunch on the Raticate, and you just burned 2 basic energy off your opponent's active. Three if you used all three and hit with the hammer :)

    That's a one turn energy killer.
     
  12. TCG_Destory Darkness player
    TCG_Destory

    Member

    Are you having problems with the Brilliant Arrow Mega Gardevoir?

    I tested my deck up against that and it is a rather favorable matchup. Now, I am aware of the fact you do not want to run an entirely different deck, but if you want some kind of counter to them, I think Despair Ray (the Steam Siege Mega Gardevoir) is a good deck to play. Aside from very positive or positive matchups against many decks in the current format, it will in some way punish this turn-by-turn style of play.

    Against Fairy (Xerneas BREAK, Mega Gardevoir), the plan is to Knock Out the Xerneas on turn two, which means they will only get one Geomancy out no matter if you went first or second, and will have to go for another Xerneas. Also, if they can set up enough Energy, the plan is to get the first hit on the Mega Gardevoir, so that the next Mega Gardevoir you send out can finish it off (make sure to count the Mega Turbo they used up though). This matchup is normally won by using speed, and not only Mega Gardevoir STS can achieve that.

    Darkrai can be a tough one, though because it resists Psychic. This means that if it has a Fighting Fury Belt, a total of four sacrifices are needed to Knock it Out, or a Rattata to remove it, for two 90 hits to then become sufficient. Remember, however, that they also hit you for Resistance, and thus you can either, depending on their Energy count on the field, use a Fairy Drop to force them to hit you three times to Knock you Out or survive a hit and then Retreat, finish them off and discard the first Mega Gardevoir.

    I have to admit though, Energy damage scaling decks like Turbo Darkrai or Mega Gardevoir/Xerneas BREAK are scary to face due to apparently imminent one hit Knock Outs, but I do not think that Energy disruption is the right way to get them.

    Better prevent than heal, it is my way to see it; you should use a deck such as Mega Gardevoir or Mega Rayquaza Colorless (pretty similar deck) to outspeed them, preventing them from OHKOing you by reaching a sufficient amount or Energy. Make sure you can get around Silent Lab and Parallel City drops by keeping Sky Field for when it is needed, and taking away their free Retreat (by replacing the Fairy Garden Stadium and by playing down Rattata to get rid of their Float Stone after an Escape Rope) can help, as well as Lysandre-KOing their Shaymin EX and Hoopa EX for the last couple prizes. Here's the way I think those matchups are winnable.
     
  13. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    My goal isn't to play a completely different deck to deal with it but to find a way that my current deck can deal with it. It seems no matter what I do, I'm always a turn too slow. The biggest factor is my deck isn't fast enough and can win the match assuming I get decent hands so by first goal is to make the deck not really faster (though that can help), but to make it a bit more consistent. You are right that controlling the energy in play may not be the best option but my thought was removing even one energy could help but Mega Turbo is a thing so I think the spaces should be for speed.

    The biggest factor between Turbo Dark and Fairy is a 20x damage attack and a 30x damage attack so Mega Gardevoir needs two less energy to KO something, which could be a turn or two difference. I think the biggest factor here is speed but the random nature of card games means you sometimes have no real choice but to sit there and let them build energy.
     
  14. Asmer Keep the High Tide on the Flipside
    Asmer

    Member

    Gonna assume you're playing M-Scizor because otherwise, I have nfi what you're actually referring to. So, that stated...

    All right, I'm going to nitpick a little here since this starts becoming a massive loop of bad if someone doesn't say something.

    So... just to point out the obvious and make this a very clear point in my suggestion attempt, remember that we all realize that both Darkrai Turbo and M Gardevoir-EX are very popular in Pidgeot's area because of their speed/strength aka unlimited damage potential etc. With that stated, knowing that your deck is at a disadvantage because of speed (albeit not by much from what I've seem to have read in this thread) and what I would assume is lack of scaling in comparison, I would highly consider one of the following two paths while also stating something else I feel hasn't been clearly stated (or perhaps clearly understood):

    These decks are extremely popular and powerful. Yours is, sadly, neither at the moment. Granted, it is powerful and, to an extent (under assumption), popular, but not to the degree of Darkrai/Gardevoir. There's a very big reason these two are in the Meta and you, essentially, are now playing the "not" Meta. I realize this is super redundant but keep this in mind anyway as we go through this. It'll help.

    So, knowing the above, we can either attempt to do something that'll even out the playing field so that you have a better chance of forcing your opponent in to a mistake (essentially, playing more control cards. Hammers, Red Card, Judge, Team Flare Grunts, etc etc. Also, keep in mind is that sometimes, all it takes is forcing your opponent in to a worse RNG situation than yourself), or you can maximize your deck's potential when it comes to speed/consistency (you mentioned this earlier). Personally, when it comes down to it, I would rather maximize speed and consistency because when you play in a 8-10 round tournament or so, stopping 1-2 decks means very little in the long run.

    So, what does this mean, then?

    Well, realistically, it means that you now have to set up a strict goal of what your deck is going to be doing. Assuming you are playing Scizor, your goal should be focusing on coming out the door swinging as much as you possibly can. You also have to come to the acceptance that you will not be OHKOing EX Pokemon. So, knowing that, you'll have to find a way to keep the damage consistent, which is a little different from scaling decks in regards to what you would need to do during the game. You will want your deck a bit more RNG-resilient structurally, meaning search cards and cards that thin the deck are more welcomed. You'll want thing that preserve resources or at a minimum, recycle resources. All these different things will allow you to have something that, in most cases, will be a monster to face against if built properly.

    Unfortunately... that's the best way to go about this if you aren't willing to go down a full Control strategy/build something new. After all, Pokemon deck building is about the idea first and the card choices second if that makes sense.

    Either way, I hope a lot of this was redundant to you. It should be considering and, in all reality, that's a good sign. There's really not much you can do against faster and stronger decks because, well...they're faster and stronger for a reason. Still, this is what you can do and hopefully, that helps in some regard.

    Either way, with the new things coming out, maybe there will be something else you like or a tech we just aren't looking at properly. Here's hoping. Good luck as well in your findings!

    -Asmer
     
  15. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    The interesting thing here is I hardly have issues with Dark unless I brick because the 20x damage isn't all that overwhelming and they don't have access to an attack that can put two darkness Energy into play, whereas Fairy can do both of these things while having access to things like Max Elixir and or Mega Turbo. Where I have a issue with M Gardevoir EX's Brilliant Arrow attack is the 30x damage, with both methods of Energy acceleration and Geomancy so if I miss a turn for any reason, they can put on a lot of damage without any kind of interference whatsoever. To a lesser extent, Xerneas BREAK is also a problem because of how much energy can hit the board so I'm looking for an effective way of dealing with this without having to build a very specific deck.

    I can maybe fix this with Crushing Hammer but there is a chance these will all fail and in that case, I wasted four card spots but this is by far the best option to maybe hitting the deck since I can hit a Energy anywhere on the board. Hitting two or three of these can reduce like 60 to 90 damage, which will help a lot but if they play Mega Turbo, it becomes less effective so I figured making my deck faster (which is inherently a slower deck anyway) to maybe hit them on my second turn and put on pressure which I believe is the best choice so what I'm doing now is testing more Magearna-EX in my deck and change up a few cards to support it but do so in a way to where it doesn't compromise my deck's strategy. Oh and I'm playing with Mega Pidgeot by the way.
     
  16. Asmer Keep the High Tide on the Flipside
    Asmer

    Member

    OH. Mega Pidgeot. Right. xD
    Yeah, Brilliant Arrow is quite a problem, just because it does scale so freakin' high. Um... maaaybe once SM hits, you can tech Oranguru, which will help with a combination of extra draw and Psychic is actually good as far as attacks go. Besides that... Yeah, your options are pretty limited to like, Energy Denial and really, really good Lysandre Plays.

    I wish I had better answers, to be honest. It's always really hard to pick apart higher tier things (guess that's why they're higher tier xD ). Thinking on it, because of how Brilliant Arrow works, you can't even Lysandre to stop a specific Gardevoir from scaling... jeez. Assault Vest doesn't usually bother it, we don't have Frozen City (that would be the best answer right now, actually), we don't really have a way to perma-lock Energy... they can afford a Turn without Spirit Link and, if they're smart and go in to G2 and G3 knowing you have, let's say Ratata, then they'll simply scale up a Benched Gardevoir...

    Yeah... best I can tell you is maybe a Crushing Hammer route, hope that the RNG Gods favor you, or maybe you really might have to build something better if that is your Meta. Sorry I can't help anymore. I'm not coming up with much card-wise, sadly. ><

    Well, there is one cheeky thing you could do, but it isn't a guarantee. You could play 3 or 4 Red Card alongside 3 N and just RNG the heck out of your Opponents. They still have chances through Sycamore etc., but that's all I got that makes sense besides maybe Hammers + Puzzle of Time (and Hammers only work sometimes).

    -Asmer
     
  17. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    So this is my problem. I can play with two Magearna-EX or even three. Scizor-EX can KO them and is a cheap splice into the deck since I already play metal Energy so my option now is to flip some coins and have a faster build so once the energy hits the board, I can at least be taking knockouts, which is a good way to keep energy of the board. Its hard to find that perfect balance though.
     
  18. Asmer Keep the High Tide on the Flipside
    Asmer

    Member

    My only issue with playing so many Magearna-EX is that A. She's lower on the HP side and B. She takes DCEs away from M Pidgeot or takes 3 Energy attachments otherwise (or minuses resources to get them). I do like Scizor-EX himself a lot because at the very least, he's a good Revenge Killer...

    ...I just realized... if you're having issues setting up by only a turn or two, why not play 2-3 Cobalion STS? He stops Basic Attackers for a turn, meaning you can slow down Dark Decks. His attack is only 2 Energy and will guarantee a kill on to both M Gardevoirs if they have taken 3 Prizes, plus he messes with their prize numbers if he's knocked out since he's a non-EX, meaning N becomes more effective. Also, he's Metal, which means you have the Energy type to play him anyway. He seems like a good idea overall, at least on paper he does.

    -Asmer
     
  19. crystal_pidgeot Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
    crystal_pidgeot

    Member

    I considered running with Cobalion but in order for it to be good in the match, my opponent has to take two kills on an EX for it to be good and by that point, they just need another EX kill to win and I'm trying to avoid that. Magearna EX can take a kill or two and is at least effective enough as a second attacker and in recent games I played, its quick enough to at least remove energy on the board. From what I have seen, Magearna EX is the best metal attacker that doesn't need to do something in order to get a kill. The low HP is a problem but if I I can get a fast Magearna EX, then it can sweep a game.
     
  20. Asmer Keep the High Tide on the Flipside
    Asmer

    Member

    I fail to see how Magearna is good against Yveltal-EX, but if that's what works, then sure.
    It does make me question the point of this thread, though. You seemed to have had your answer from the beginning, at least from what I can see. Though, maybe this helped you figure out that Magearna was the way to go, in which case, good. :)

    Either way, I'm out of ideas at this point.

    -Asmer
     

Viewing Now: 0 Members + 0 Guests

There are no registered members viewing this forum. Why not register here and start a discussion?

Moderated By

AlphaVoxel, Brave Vesperia

Share This Page