Concern with the Direction of the Game Thus Far (Again...)

C

Card Slinger J

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Yeah I know hear me out first. I've been noticing alot of players in my area getting out of the Pokemon TCG because of the current power creep of sets. First I hear that Catcher is supposed to ruin the format when it's a double-edged sword, then the discussion of overpowered Basics with 100+ HP making Stage 2's almost unplayable with the Rare Candy errata hurting the game, is there anything good out of this? I mean If players are going to complain that the Pokemon TCG is going in the wrong direction shouldn't they tell PUSA first hand on their website?

Next one of my friends is thinking about switching over to the Pokemon Video Games considering how bad the TCG is getting. I want to stay in the game but it's really hard for me when most of my friends are stuck in a position where they can't decide If they're wanting to sell all their cards away including their decks or just wait and see how EP effects the current format. It's all driving me crazy, I want to say the Pokemon TCG is getting better but the more I see the Japanese Spoilers it seems like it keeps getting worse. I already know Trainer Lock and Catcher is going to be the metagame, instead of complaining why aren't there players finding solutions to these problems?

What do you guys think? I'm gonna keep playing the Pokemon TCG and hope for the best unless If I'm forced to quit the game which I don't really want to.
 
Every time a set is released in Japan, all the players on message boards such as these say "oh no X card is gonna break the format." Here are some previous examples since I got back in the game (Note I rejoined the game right before HS)

HS - Donphan Prime - didn't really break the format, still isn't
HS - Jumpluff - Didn't break the format, had a good run however
UL - Kingdra Prime - Another card that fails to live up to the hype
UL - Entei/Raikou Legend - He was used big for 1 tournament and thats all
UD - Vileplume - Good run with Vilegar, but was never BDIF. Didn't really break the game, Too many ways to work around it.
TR - Gengar Prime - Overhyped enough said.
CoL - Lost World - See Gengar Prime


Black and white is still too new to saw what the effect is with those cards. but the current format is the healthiest its been in a good minute. SP's were definately a poison to this game and the close to 3 years they dominated. Catcher will probably be 4 per deck, but overhyped.

Another thing with Catcher, since it is Gust of Wind. GoW had Item Finder (Junk Arm), along with Draw TRAINERS (Oak and Bill). Back in those days most matches didn't last any where near a 20 minute mark. Now close to 50% matches can easily drag to the 30 min time limit. The format is far healthier.
 
Catcher will most likely be played in just 2 copies cause you can already run 4 Junk Arm to get them back from your Discard Pile and Professor Juniper helps any deck speed up quite a bit to achieve that card synergy. 4 Catcher is overkill IMO. As you've mentioned with Vileplume it's still very solid just takes some ingenuity to get it going with the right hand and of course Metagross UL can 3HKO it like a boss. I've seen it happen.

You call the current format healthy? More donks and faster games being made as it hurts the fun of the game overall, If the current format were as slow as the last 2 formats I'd be better If of course it wasn't for the Rare Candy errata hurting Stage 2's seeing more than one line in each deck competitively like when Claydol GE made things consistent, Magnezone Prime on the other hand is not easy to counter like Claydol was unless you run Donphan.

I still see Yanmega Prime breaking the current format especially with Max Potion in EP, and the only good counter we have for it despite not keeping a high hand size being good enough to get around Insight is Zekrom. No really, Zekrom works but the problem is that the ZPS combo can run out of steam really quickly and Yanmega can basically get around it with another setup on the bench to snipe for 40 or do 70 to setup for a KO.
 
Card Slinger J said:
You call the current format healthy? More donks and faster games being made as it hurts the fun of the game overall, If the current format were as slow as the last 2 formats I'd be better If of course it wasn't for the Rare Candy errata hurting Stage 2's seeing more than one line in each deck competitively like when Claydol GE made things consistent, Magnezone Prime on the other hand is not easy to counter like Claydol was unless you run Donphan
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If candy wouldn't had been errata'd we'd see alot more donks. Imagine. T1 Emboar with reshiram. or better yet, T1 Emboar with a T1 RDL. Candy needed to be errata'd. And ok, Juniper does add speed, but not that of what I remember in base set era. Play 4 bills and 4 oaks all within 2-3 turns and the game is over. And you think donks are more prevalent now, should we look at Battle Roads before Nats? Sabledonk would really like to change your opinion on this.
 
But here's the thing though, even with the Rare Candy errata you're still seeing the same amount of donks as you would If PUSA had never errated Rare Candy starting with Black/White Base Set. It never solved the problem, it only made it worse by allowing the return of x2 Weakness to every Pokemon instead of keeping it at +10 or +20 Weakness like in the Diamond/Pearl and Platinum series. That old Weakness was part of the reason of why Charizard AR was playable in MD-On.

Pokemon Catcher itself makes donks more consistent but at the same time removes luck factor from the game. Reversal was balanced because it required luck to actually decide whether If you would be able to draw or prize or not. Now with Catcher replacing Reversal that luck is gone and so has the fun in setting up a Stage 2 on the bench and unless If it's Vileplume you are screwed big time. There's only a few playable Stage 2 Pokemon in the current format being Vileplume, Gothitelle, and Magnezone Prime.
 
I hate to say it, one of the things I hate most about this format, even though it is healthy. Games still take too long. Like I said, back in the base era, games rarely lasted past the 20 minute mark. Now we have games repeatedly exceeding 30 minutes. And since I've been testing this format. I've never had the misfortune of being donked. but that might be because I find running babies to be pointless.
 
Are you sure about that cause I remember games in DP-On and MD-On being much slower paced than HGSS-On, at least back then Stage 2 decks were competitive at least until SP's showed up in Platinum and almost ruined everything. Even with the rotation we are still seeing power creep in the Black & White sets with no help from the HGSS block. It's still fun but it's getting to the point where the power creep nowadays is getting ridiculous.

It's not bad to the point where the power creep is breaking the game, perhaps errating a few popular cards instead of pulling a Yu-Gi-Oh! with a Banned/Limited List would be a much safer approach to fixing the game sure set rotations help phase cards out but there's times especially nowadays where that's not enough. Take for example back in Neo Genesis with Sneasel and Slowking, that was a different situation that could've been handled by errata instead of a ban.

You also mentioned earlier that Jumpluff was overhyped, well with Mew Prime it's just uberly godly. Mass Attack for 90-100 damage almost every turn with a Rainbow or Grass Energy? Better yet Mew Prime can use Leaf Guard to survive one turn against Donphan Prime just so it can donk it with Mass Attack being copied from the Lost Zone. Kingdra Prime almost lived up to the hype of Yanmega Prime but not quite, infact it's helped decks that bench snipe alot easier mainly with Yanmega Prime to snipe for 50 or do 80 to the Active.
 
See thats why me and you have different views on whether this format is healthy or not. I'm remembering base era with 10-20 minute games, if that. Where you fly through 90% of your deck within the first 3-4 turns. Where as now we can mill ourselves down in about 6-7 turns, and games take 20-30 minutes if not longer.You're coming from DP era where the time limit was 40 min in swiss if I remember correctly. A very slow format indeed. but then Claydol and Uxie ruined that sped the game up, then came the SP's. HS-On is a much slower format from the SP's in my honest opinion. And yea we have a power creep, but power creep is bound to happen. Take a look at the very first Magic Set, very first yugioh set, or base set for pokemon. its something that is guarenteed to happen no matter the game. and when pokemon has been around for what, 13-14 years now? its bound to be a major creep from the beginning to the current era.
 
The problem with the recent power creep of HGSS through BW is that Nintendo or whoever is in charge of the TCG is that with Generation V of Pokemon being a "reboot" of the franchise they thought it was necessary to also "reboot" the TCG back to Base Set Era 2000 and not only that but with Pokemon ex's returning they are basically throwing everything in the TCG's entirety at us with the exception of a Delta Species reboot.
 
See, just because Ex's and some of the old powers (now abilities) and trainers (some as supporters) are returning doesn't mean they're throwing the entire TCG history at us for the reboot. You're really only looking at a small part of the tcg's history since Base Era was 98-00, then neo took over in 01.

Things that you're leaving out...

Shining Pokemon
Crystal Pokemon
____'s Pokemon (not the promo's. I'm talking like Brock's Vulpix. This was an old mechanic I've been wanting back for ages, Kind of like Rocket's pokemon and Magma/Aqua's pokemon as well)
Delta
* Pokemon
Dark and Light Pokemon.
and god forbid, SP

And I've only touched lightly on the TCG History. theres so much they could throw at us in this reboot but there not. They're making the format alot more refreshing and healthier in my eyes. I mean lets look at the only EX revealed thus far, mewtwo, he's easy to counter even with 170hp. HS Weezing for a DCE 90 damage. You knockout Mewtwo and take 2 prizes. Weezing is knocked out they take one. thats a very honest fair trade off. Changing times in the game really allows the top players to shine the way they always do. They tend to be able to adapt to change alot easier then your average player.
 
Kingdra Prime is an amazing card and had a great showing at Worlds. These cards are hyped by they are very solid cards and performed quite well at tournaments.
 
Project696 said:
Every time a set is released in Japan, all the players on message boards such as these say "oh no X card is gonna break the format." Here are some previous examples since I got back in the game (Note I rejoined the game right before HS)

HS - Donphan Prime - didn't really break the format, still isn't
HS - Jumpluff - Didn't break the format, had a good run however
UL - Kingdra Prime - Another card that fails to live up to the hype
UL - Entei/Raikou Legend - He was used big for 1 tournament and thats all
UD - Vileplume - Good run with Vilegar, but was never BDIF. Didn't really break the game, Too many ways to work around it.
TR - Gengar Prime - Overhyped enough said.
CoL - Lost World - See Gengar Prime


Black and white is still too new to saw what the effect is with those cards. but the current format is the healthiest its been in a good minute. SP's were definately a poison to this game and the close to 3 years they dominated. Catcher will probably be 4 per deck, but overhyped.

Another thing with Catcher, since it is Gust of Wind. GoW had Item Finder (Junk Arm), along with Draw TRAINERS (Oak and Bill). Back in those days most matches didn't last any where near a 20 minute mark. Now close to 50% matches can easily drag to the 30 min time limit. The format is far healthier.
Click to expand...

LOL Matches took a long time back then. I thought HS-on would be a slow format but NOOOO "Hers sm Zekroms and Reshiramz, dey do 120 for 3...ya, ya no like Base Set" Can we please...PLEASE just have stage 2's that do 50 damage for 3 and that is considered a GOOD card?

O_O Card Slinger...how...many...times...Rare Candy is JUST AS effective...get over your SP ya complainer :p
 
If the TCG becomes uninteresting, that's all to it. The card designers are fully aware of what they're getting into; concerning DP-on with SP domination back then, there was still a number of viable decks out there. They know that they need to keep in mind about what will actually destroy the game and what won't. As far as I see, there has yet to be a sole deck as of now that can break a 60-40 matchup against all of the other metagame decks, so they're doing an okay job. People will obviously hype because a card indeed looks promising. Hype and anti-hype rubbish is nothing more than someone trying to express - no, excuse me, impress - their opinions upon others.

Simply put, if PUSA does indeed break the game, it'll mean fewer players, giving them an indication to fix things. And they most likely will. Don't worry about this.

EDIT: Even though RC is still neat as ever, I do wish the errata was never made. T1/2 donk/speed swarm decks has always been my style.
 
^The only time what happened was with Sneasel and Sableye...and it was taken care of promptly. Catcher won't be game breaking but it will suck majorly.
 
I'm sorry, but rare candy is not even CLOSE to being as effective. For one, you can't use it turn one. More importantly, you have to have the basic in play for a turn. The rare candy rule is one of the main things that makes Vileplume not as affective. Just imagine what the game would be like if you didn't have to keep a 40hp Oddish in play for a turn, or if you could get it turn one. There are many other examples of this, but don't EVER say that rare candy is just as affective.

The only thing that is bad about this format is the going first rule. That, is not fair. You cannot complain too much when different decks win all 3 age divisions, and when there is a crazy rogue getting second in masters. The cards are fine, the rules are not.
 
Ty W said:
I'm sorry, but rare candy is not even CLOSE to being as effective. For one, you can't use it turn one. More importantly, you have to have the basic in play for a turn. The rare candy rule is one of the main things that makes Vileplume not as affective. Just imagine what the game would be like if you didn't have to keep a 40hp Oddish in play for a turn, or if you could get it turn one. There are many other examples of this, but don't EVER say that rare candy is just as affective.

The only thing that is bad about this format is the going first rule. That, is not fair. You cannot complain too much when different decks win all 3 age divisions, and when there is a crazy rogue getting second in masters. The cards are fine, the rules are not.
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Alright...I will admit that it's not as effective but it doesn't make Stage 2's unplayable as CSJ always says...
 
It seems that a complaint like this arises every year, right around the time when the Pokemon sets that are coming out are trash. Every new era (BW or DP for instance) starts off with two sets that are trash before they eventually make a set that is going to be good but not great but will provide players with plenty of unique cards (SW or Red Collection please don't talk about Plox coming from SW as it was almost entirely unintentional if you ask me and it was more than bolstered by cards from previous sets) then eventually they have to wind up a block of cards, and with that you get all of your ridiculous and amazing cards smashed into one great set (Stormfront, Triumphant) Then after those cards are released they are going to have to start a new block so they are going to have to make a quick change and then you have multiple trash sets (or a new mechanic in the instance of SP or Delta) released after these great sets. Now as the format continues you are going to accumulate some new good cards or new mechanics and you will still have these incredibly powerful cards in the format. What you then find is that you have an extremely powerful deck based on the combination of the cards from these powerful sets and the new cards that have been added for example:
Plox was powered almost completely by DRE and Scramble Energy, both of which were released in the EX Era and were designed to not work with Pokemon EX, however as newer sets were released these old and extremely powerful cards found new meaning.

Sabledonk was caused by the lingering of Legends Awakened and Stormfront sets and the addition of a new mechanic (trainer on the first turn) due to a change in the current format, older cards found new meaning yet again.

So yes we are currently in the part of the game where cards from the older and more powerful sets are getting upgrades from newer cards being released so instead of Uxie and Sableye or Double Rainbow Energy and Scramble Energy we have cards like Donphan, Kingdra, Yanmega, and Magnezone who are going to be receiving buffs from cards such as Catcher and Max Potion. It makes for a stagnant format as we aren't getting new Pokemon that are going to change the face of the metagame, we already have the cards that shape the format, we are just getting new trainers to shift the format a little. So don't worry too much, Red Collection is going to add a bit more creativity to the format, and then the new EX Cards are going to be the next big thing that will bring the next big shift to the format. So if your friends are thinking about quitting, I'd suggest that you guys just pool some money and buy a couple playsets of Catcher and Max Potion, and then just play for fun for Battle Roads, then when the next couple of sets come out you can actually invest in new cards and play some new competitive decks. We're just in a rough spot right now, but things will always change eventually.

As for your complaint about donks, you have to remember that the babies were made during a format where Uxie was the draw engine and anybody who played Tyrogue was probably an idiot. Then when the format changed and Cleffa became the draw engine, Tyrogue was just the obvious counter. I don't think that was intentional, I mean they cannot always predict what changes will occur. I like to think that they are hearing these complaints, and will probably shy away from creating a draw engine that revolves around 30 HP Pokemon.
 
Rare Candy's ruling doesn't completely stop Stage 2s from functioning but puts them back a turn. The way I see it, for Stage 2s to set up relies on the 2 luck factors that have ALWAYS been in the game. The starting coin flip and the cards both players draw are mainly the things standing in their way. If Stage 2 goes first, thats great. It's even better with a good hand and their opponent doesn't draw Catcher or something. Catcher is rather healthy though. It can keep a steady prize race between Stage 1s and 2s that can do 60-70 HP with ZPS. However, what I would like to see is a ruling on Catcher similar to Rare Candy stating that Catcher cannot be used on either player's first turn. This at least allows both players to attempt to set up. I know it gives the first player an advantage but since the BW rules it's always been like that.

Another thing is the game was already pretty fast right before SP, not when SP arrived . Legends Awakened was probably what gave the game a burst of speed with Kingdra (donks mainly start), Uxie, and Uxie X followed up with Stormfront.

Like DoX said, I like to think they hear our complaints as well. A few good examples are the banning of Sneasel and Slowking at the time and the mid-season rotation to kill Sabledonk and (I like to think) Luxray taking 3 Worlds in a row.
 
ShadowDark said:
Rare Candy's ruling doesn't completely stop Stage 2s from functioning but puts them back a turn. The way I see it, for Stage 2s to set up relies on the 2 luck factors that have ALWAYS been in the game. The starting coin flip and the cards both players draw are mainly the things standing in their way. If Stage 2 goes first, thats great. It's even better with a good hand and their opponent doesn't draw Catcher or something. Catcher is rather healthy though. It can keep a steady prize race between Stage 1s and 2s that can do 60-70 HP with ZPS. However, what I would like to see is a ruling on Catcher similar to Rare Candy stating that Catcher cannot be used on either player's first turn. This at least allows both players to attempt to set up. I know it gives the first player an advantage but since the BW rules it's always been like that.

Another thing is the game was already pretty fast right before SP, not when SP arrived . Legends Awakened was probably what gave the game a burst of speed with Kingdra (donks mainly start), Uxie, and Uxie X followed up with Stormfront.

Like DoX said, I like to think they hear our complaints as well. A few good examples are the banning of Sneasel and Slowking at the time and the mid-season rotation to kill Sabledonk and (I like to think) Luxray taking 3 Worlds in a row.
Click to expand...

No...make Catcher like Luxury Ball..that would solve the problem
 
catutie said:
No...make Catcher like Luxury Ball..that would solve the problem
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Only that Luxury Ball back then didn't have Junk Arm to go with it. Personally, I see nothing wrong with letting 4 Catchers being used in appropriate decks. And PUSA doesn't see anything wrong with it either.

EDIT: *Facepalm* Derp. Thanks catutie.
 
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