Discussion Classic: A New Format About Old Cards

[Subgenre]

A few days ago I was at a local game store have a chat about how a lot of old Pokemon cards lack value because there's no format to play them in both online and off. That got me to brainstorm a format I call Classic.

In this format, twelve sets are legal:

• Base Set
• Jungle
• Fossil
• Base Set 2
• Team Rocket
• Gym Heroes
• Gym Challenge
• Neo Genesis
• Neo Discovery
• Neo Revelation
• Neo Destiny
• Legendary Collection

Additionally, promotional cards from the following "sets" are legal:

• Southern Islands
• Best of Game
• Wizards Black Star Promos

Reprints and updated versions of old cards from new sets are allowed, but their text must be treated as if it had the text of its original printing. For example, Super Rod from Breakthrough and Super Rod from Neo Genesis have very different abilities. While you could use a Super Rod from Breakthrough in a classic deck, it would work as if it were a Neo Genesis Super Rod when played.

Since Supporters and Items didn't exist during this time period old rules for Trainers will be used. That being that all Trainers have the same rules as items - you can play as many as you'd like in a single turn.

There will be a small ban list to handle cards that were either broken in their time or had rulings issues. These banned cards are:

• Sneasel (Neo Genesis 25/111)
• Slowking (Neo Genesis 14/111)
• _____’s Pikachu (Wizard’s Promos 24)
• Lass (Base Set 75)
• Super Energy Removal (Base Set 79)

To prevent the format from growing stale, cards from newer sets of compatible power level could be potentially made legal, this would allow the dozens of junk filler cards we get in every set to potentially see play. This, plus the fact that many of the trainer cards and other old tech is worth pennies now, could make classic a fun budget format.

Here's an example of what a deck in this format could look like:

Pokemon

4 Shining Magikarp (NR 66)
4 Magikarp (TR 47)
3 Gyarados (BS 6)
3 Dark Gyarados (TR 8)
1 Blastoise (BS 2)
1 Wartortle (BS 42)
1 Squirtle (BS 63)

Trainers
4 Bill (BS 91)
4 Switch (BS 95)
4 Energy Search (Fossil 59)
3 Computer Search (BS 71)
2 Professor Oak (BS 88)
1 Here Comes Team Rocket! (TR 15)
3 Misty’s Tears (GC 118)
3 Gust of Wind (BS 93)
1 Pokedex (BS 97)
4 Energy Removal (BS 92)

Energy

4 Rainbow Energy (TR 17)
10 Water Energy

 

[Otaku]

A few days ago I was at a local game store have a chat about how a lot of old Pokemon cards lack value because there's no format to play them in both online and off. That got me to brainstorm a format I call Classic.

Just warning you now: while not everyone has their own idea for such a format, seems like everyone knows someone who does. That isn't me knocking the idea, just warning you that you'll have competition.

In this format, twelve sets are legal:

• Base Set
• Jungle
• Fossil
• Base Set 2
• Team Rocket
• Gym Heroes
• Gym Challenge
• Neo Genesis
• Neo Discovery
• Neo Revelation
• Neo Destiny
• Legendary Collection

Additionally, promotional cards from the following "sets" are legal:

• Southern Islands
• Best of Game
• Wizards Black Star Promos

The main point of the Legendary Collection was to reprint all the cards from Base Set through Team Rocket that were not already present in the Neo-block but balanced enough for inclusion in such a format. I haven't played the Neo Genesis through Legendary Collection format since Expedition cards released, nor am I the biggest fan of WotC, but I believe they were mostly correct. That seems like a better starting point for what you propose... and maybe even the best ending point. [Edit] To clarify, I am not saying to use only the Legendary Collection, but Neo Genesis through Legendary Collection. That this was confusing is made apparent by a later exchange. [/Edit]

Southern Islands shouldn't be a problem but WotC: Black Star Promos and Best of Game include stuff released during the e-card era. I am not seeing any Supporters, but there is at least one Poké-Body. I don't recall if the Dot Code on any of these cards contains Poké-Bodies, Poké-Powers, or attacks. I know that there were some cards during the e-card period that did include "secret" attacks in the Dot Code. Not as big a deal as I expected, but thought you should know.

Reprints and updated versions of old cards from new sets are allowed, but their text must be treated as if it had the text of its original printing. For example, Super Rod from Breakthrough and Super Rod from Neo Genesis have very different abilities. While you could use a Super Rod from Breakthrough in a classic deck, it would work as if it were a Neo Genesis Super Rod when played.

So long as everything else is being played as it was during this time period, I suppose that makes sense. I might prefer using the modern wording for many of these cards over the originals is. You have things like Pokémon Center with its original wording that may have been too good, and things like Super Potion that may only finally be good enough with the modern wording.

Since Supporters and Items didn't exist during this time period old rules for Trainers will be used. That being that all Trainers have the same rules as items - you can play as many as you'd like in a single turn.

That is incorrect

The term "Item" didn't exist, though all "normal Trainers" and "Tools" functioned as them. "Supporters" didn't exist at all but Stadium cards were introduced back in Gym Heroes; about half the sets you are allowing contain Stadium cards. The rules for Stadium cards were different during this time period, however; while only a single Stadium card could be in play at one time, you could play multiple Stadium cards from your hand in a turn, including playing some with the same name. Pretty sure those rule revisions came about because it made some Stadium cards from these sets a bit better than intended. You'll need to consider whether to go with the rules of the time or the rules of the present for Stadium cards.

Additionally, what first turn rules are being used? Special Condition rules? There are a lot of revisions that happened during these sets, and shortly afterward, that we just take for granted now.

There will be a small ban list to handle cards that were either broken in their time or had rulings issues. These banned cards are:

• Sneasel (Neo Genesis 25/111)
• Slowking (Neo Genesis 14/111)
• _____’s Pikachu (Wizard’s Promos 24)
• Lass (Base Set 75)
• Super Energy Removal (Base Set 79)

You're probably going to need a longer list. XP

• Sneasel (Neo Genesis 25/111) might be okay if only it was Fighting Weak. Sneasel (HS: Undaunted 68/90) demonstrated this to some degree years later. Without Slowking (Neo Genesis 14/111) it is also much less effective. If you're willing to errata some cards, I'd just give it Fighting Weakness and allow it. Of course, I'm also going to suggest banning something else that helped it seem so formidable. At least, in a bit.
  
• Slowking (Neo Genesis 14/111) should be errata'd to match the Japanese version of the card. The Pokémon Power does only works while Active on the original; I still think WotC intentionally changed it because they thought it would "fix" Unlimited (and were horribly wrong XP). Of course, few people will bother with it
• _______'s Pikachu (WotC: Black Star Promos 24) should be banned to keep things simple.
• Lass is quite abusive with Computer Search, Item Finder, and Professor Oak in the format.
• Super Energy Removal is one of the key cards that make aggressive beatdown/control decks so viable. Haymaker struggles if an opponent can both Evolve something and then attack with it; 70 HP stops being the "magic number" when fully Evolved Stage 1 or Stage 2 cards can reliably deal out even 60 damage, let alone 70+. Even if the Haymaker deck takes some early Prizes, it needs to strip away Energy so that the opponent can't counterattack.

Now, here is what I recommend adding:

• Energy Removal is another of the two key cards that defined the early Unlimited Format. Even without Super Energy Removal, this allows Haymaker decks to keep most Evolving Pokémon from attacking, or at least attacking more than once. It also makes Electrode (Base Set 21/102; Base Set 2 25/130) a horrible deal, which is a problem because that Electrode, in turn, can use its "Buzzap" Ability to make many other Pokémon viable who were not during this era.
• Psyduck (Fossil 53/62; WotC: Black Star Promos 20) needs to go if first turn attacks are allowed; Trainers are too important to the average deck to allow them to be locked down before someone has the chance to even play. It isn't quite as bad if a few other cards are banned, but this card was used competitively back in the day for this reason.
• Imposter Oak's Revenge is part of "Trapper" decks; if the player running such a deck goes first, he uses this card after using as many copies of Erika as he or she needed to set up the Trapper combo. Even without the actual Trapper combo, just for that trick with Erika, it probably needs to go.
• Rocket's Sneak Attack is the second part of the Trapper combo, a combo which strips your opponent of his or her entire hand for the price of three Trainers and a lucky coin flip. It might be okay if the rest of the combo is gone.
• The Rocket's Trap allows you to shuffle three cards from your opponent's hand back into his or her deck so long as you get "heads" on a mandatory coin flip. This was the final step of the Trapper combo... well, other than trying to KO your opponent's stuff before he or she stopped drawing dead. Even on its own, it is pretty sick; sure it will fail half the time, but the other half your opponent is down three cards. That is enough to leave many topdecking.
• Erika's Jigglypuff was king (or is it queen?) of the donks. Unless you plan on banning Double Colorless Energy or PlusPower.
• Baby Pokémon; that Baby Rule is a mess.
• Focus Band makes almost everything better... but it disproportionately benefits the top decks. How? Why? Because at a time when OHKO's weren't that common, having some of the few Pokémon capable of inflicting them survive an extra turn for the low price of a Tool and a "heads" is a crazy-good bargain. This isn't the modern game, when you could discard such a thing with Field Blower, or easily Poison via Hypnotoxic Laser to render the flip pointless.

Probably some others, but these are some long time "favorites". >.>

 

[jessalakasam]

Imagine trying to pay max rarity.... X_X

 

[Subgenre]

Just warning you now: while not everyone has their own idea for such a format, seems like everyone knows someone who does. That isn't me knocking the idea, just warning you that you'll have competition.

I sencerly scoured the internet for something similar and came up with nothing. I'm going going around and claiming I'm the most original person on the web, but it seems to me that the TCG community doesn't have much of an interest in exploring new ways to play the game.

That seems like a better starting point for what you propose... and maybe even the best ending point.

A legendary collection only format would be horribly limiting.

Southern Islands

shouldn't be a problem but WotC: Black Star Promos and Best of Game include stuff released during the e-card era. I am not seeing any Supporters, but there are is at least one Poké-Body. I don't recall if the Dot Code on any of these cards contains Poké-Bodies, Poké-Powers, or attacks. I know that there were some cards during the e-card period that did include "secret" attacks in the Dot Code. Not as big a deal as I expected, but thought you should know.

There was an E-Card era Suicune with a Pokebody from the Black Star promos (the same one from Aquapolis). TBH I wasn't sure if it should be banned on principle or not, but I thought I'd leave that to a census.

That is incorrect

The term "Item" didn't exist, though all "normal Trainers" and "Tools" functioned as them. "Supporters" didn't exist at all but Stadium cards were introduced back in Gym Heroes; about half the sets you are allowing contain Stadium cards. The rules for Stadium cards were different during this time period, however; while only a single Stadium card could be in play at one time, you could play multiple Stadium cards from your hand in a turn, including playing some with the same name. Pretty sure those rule revisions came about because it made some Stadium cards from these sets a bit better than intended. You'll need to consider whether to go with the rules of the time or the rules of the present for Stadium cards.

Of course, I am aware the item cards didn't exist back then. I'm just say supporters, which also didn't exist, would function as modern items do.

I feel like old vs. new Stadium rules is something that would have to be play tested out, ultimately stick with whatever the community decides is more fun.

Additionally

, what first turn rules are being used? Special Condition rules? There are a lot of revisions that happened during these sets, and shortly afterward, that we just take for granted now.

Hmm, good point. I suppose we'd go with the pre-BW rules for first turn plays as well as the old confusion rules.

• Sneasel (Neo Genesis 25/111) might be okay if only it was Fighting Weak. Sneasel (HS: Undaunted 68/90) demonstrated this to some degree years later. Without Slowking (Neo Genesis 14/111) it is also much less effective. If you're willing to errata some cards, I'd just give it Fighting Weakness and allow it. Of course, I'm also going to suggest banning something else that helped it seem so formidable. At least, in a bit.
  
• Slowking (Neo Genesis 14/111) should be errata'd to match the Japanese version of the card. The Pokémon Power does only works while Active on the original; I still think WotC intentionally changed it because they thought it would "fix" Unlimited (and were horribly wrong XP). Of course, few people will bother with it
• _______'s Pikachu (WotC: Black Star Promos 24) should be banned to keep things simple.
• Lass is quite abusive with Computer Search, Item Finder, and Professor Oak in the format.
• Super Energy Removal is one of the key cards that make aggressive beatdown/control decks so viable. Haymaker struggles if an opponent can both Evolve something and then attack with it; 70 HP stops being the "magic number" when fully Evolved Stage 1 or Stage 2 cards can reliably deal out even 60 damage, let alone 70+. Even if the Haymaker deck takes some early Prizes, it needs to strip away Energy so that the opponent can't counterattack.

If the community agreed to community sanction erratas then Sneasel receiving a fighting weakness and Slowking getting its intended Japanese text would make both those cards playable. Super Energy Removal was actually banned based on a suggestion from reddit, since the card can effectively set your opponent back several turns. Originally, I decided to ban it but allow Energy Removal to fill the same control slot in a deck.

Now, here is what I recommend adding:

• Energy Removal is another of the two key cards that defined the early Unlimited Format. Even without Super Energy Removal, this allows Haymaker decks to keep most Evolving Pokémon from attacking, or at least attacking more than once. It also makes Electrode (Base Set 21/102; Base Set 2 25/130) a horrible deal, which is a problem because that Electrode, in turn, can use its "Buzzap" Ability to make many other Pokémon viable who were not during this era.
• Psyduck (Fossil 53/62; WotC: Black Star Promos 20) needs to go if first turn attacks are allowed; Trainers are too important to the average deck to allow them to be locked down before someone has the chance to even play. It isn't quite as bad if a few other cards are banned, but this card was used competitively back in the day for this reason.
• Imposter Oak's Revenge is part of "Trapper" decks; if the player running such a deck goes first, he uses this card after using as many copies of Erika as he or she needed to set up the Trapper combo. Even without the actual Trapper combo, just for that trick with Erika, it probably needs to go.
• Rocket's Sneak Attack is the second part of the Trapper combo, which strips a player of his or her entire hand for the price of three Trainers and a lucky coin flip. It might be okay if the rest of the combo is gone.
• The Rocket's Trap allows you to shuffle three cards from your opponent's hand back into his or her deck so long as you get "heads" on a mandatory coin flip. This was the final step of the Trapper combo... well, other than trying to KO your opponent's stuff before he or she stopped drawing dead. Even on its own, it is pretty sick; sure it will fail half the time, but the other half your opponent is down three cards. That is enough to leave many topdecking.
• Erika's Jigglypuff was king (or is it queen?) of the donks. Unless you plan on banning Double Colorless Energy or PlusPower.
• Baby Pokémon; that Baby Rule is a mess.
• Focus Band makes almost everything better... but it disproportionately benefits the top decks. How? Why? Because at a time when OHKO's weren't that common, having some of the few Pokémon capable of inflicting them survive an extra turn for the low price of a Tool and a "heads" is a crazy-good bargain. This isn't the modern game, when you could discard such a thing with Field Blower, or easily Poison via Hypnotoxic Laser to render the flip pointless.

Probably some others, but these are some long time "favorites". >.>

I'm feeling like Energy Removal will be added to the list, since I have seen it requested several times.

I feel like one part of the Trapper deck should be banned, since Erika is actually a very fair card on its own, Imposter Oak's Revenge is fair in theory but not when run with Erika. The Rocket's Trap is a powerful hand control card that fails on a coin flip. Between the three of them, I'd say Imposter Oak's Revenge is the one to ban.

Erika's Jigglypuff doesn't look like much, but with DCE and PlusPower that's a turn one attack that can KO just about any basic in the format. DCE is arguably necessary and PlusPower isn't enharently broken, so Erika's Jiggs will get the ban.

If you try to attack a baby Pokemon there's a 50% chance your turn will just end. Doesn't that make setting up a baby Pokemon as your active a very powerful form of control that can stall out an opponent? Maybe they should be banned.

Focus Band is strong, if there's a solid census that its too good then it'll get banned.

 

[Otaku]

I sencerly scoured the internet for something similar and came up with nothing. I'm going going around and claiming I'm the most original person on the web, but it seems to me that the TCG community doesn't have much of an interest in exploring new ways to play the game.

If you scoured this message board, I think I had a thread a few years ago for a Base Set through Fossil format I was experimenting with and looking for help; I was going to experiment with various bans, but the few volunteers I had were in different time zones, so I gave up after just testing it with Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal banned. I could be mistaken, though, and have posted it elsewhere. Some of the older, great players have actually have been playing around with formats built around the first few sets. Apparently, the metagame for it isn't as settled as we might think, though most of the truly powerful cards are what you'd expect. I am not one of those old-school greats, however, so I learned about it from a common acquaintance. XP There's a fan format that had a semi-decent following in certain areas for a time known as "Unlimited 150".

Not saying you can't add one more, just warning you that these projects rarely get much traction. Most people don't even know about the rules variants recognized by TPCi; they aren't legal for competitive play, but for side events, TPCi has rules for 2-On-2, 30-card, and Team Battle.

A legendary collection only format would be horribly limiting.

...

My suggestion was Neo Genesis through Legendary Collection, as it was temporarily the actual Standard Format, and came about specifically because WotC looked at the Neo Block (Neo Genesis, Neo Discovery, Neo Revelation, and Neo Destiny) and then took cards from Base Set, Jungle, Fossil, Team Rocket, and the early WotC: Black Star Promos and picked which ones were suitable to re-release for this express purpose.

Of course, I am aware the item cards didn't exist back then. I'm just say supporters, which also didn't exist, would function as modern items do.

Your initial comment didn't acknowledge Stadium cards as having existed prior to Expedition, hence my comment. There were no Supporter cards prior to Expedition, either, so they won't be acting like Items, they just won't exist. As per your comments about previous printings, older versions of Bill would be played as "normal Trainers" e.g. Item cards. I guess Pokémon Breeder joins that list thanks to Shining Legends, but there actually are not a lot of old school Trainers that were re-released as Supporters... at least with the same name.

Sorry for the confusion.

I feel like old vs. new Stadium rules is something that would have to be play tested out, ultimately stick with whatever the community decides is more fun.

Only a little sketchy on that due to how different people define "fun", but otherwise, sounds good.

Hmm, good point. I suppose we'd go with the pre-BW rules for first turn plays as well as the old confusion rules.

Which pre-BW first turn rules? The original first turn rules were just that neither player could Evolve first turn. The first revision came with Ruby & Sapphire, at least if memory serves. There were two or three other revisions between then and the return of the original first turn rules for Black & White. Then there is what we have now. I don't remember them exactly, but some prevented a player from using any Trainers whatsoever first turn, others allowed only Items, and I think others allowed only Supporters... but it has been a long time since I used any of them, so we'll have to find a source to be certain.

There are many small rules changes you'll need to decide upon; if we can find an old rules book, it would be really helpful. Originally, you could retreat as many times as you wished during your turn, so long as you could pay the cost and weren't stalling (so no infinitely retreating two free retreating Pokémon). Then it was changed to once per turn.

Under the original Confusion Rules, you had to flip a coin to attempt to retreat while Confused, paying any costs before attempting the flip, and if it failed, that Pokémon couldn't attempt to retreat again. Honestly, I miss the bit about retreating requiring a coin flip. What I don't miss is Confusion doing 20 damage instead of placing three damage counters (as it does now); you had to worry about Weakness and Resistance and other effects back in the day, and it could get confusing for you and not just the Pokémon. @_@

Pokémon Powers were originally stopped by Confusion, Paralysis, and Sleep. Burn doesn't exist in the card pool we are discussing, and Poison wasn't added to the list until later. The term "Special Conditions" didn't debut until the Legendary Collection, at which point the older cards were ruled to be treated as if they said that instead of listing individual Special Conditions. So this isn't a rulings issue so much as something you'll need to point out to people unfamiliar with the situation.

If the community agreed to community sanction erratas then Sneasel receiving a fighting weakness and Slowking getting its intended Japanese text would make both those cards playable. Super Energy Removal was actually banned based on a suggestion from reddit, since the card can effectively set your opponent back several turns. Originally, I decided to ban it but allow Energy Removal to fill the same control slot in a deck.

When I have more time, I'll have to check out the Reddit. The short version is that putting it to a vote of those involved sounds good, though I hope you'll relay my arguments about Energy Removal. My testing gave the impression that sans S/ER, Base Set through Fossil went from having about three major archetypes

• Haymaker variants (beatdown/control)
• Raindance variants
  
• Turbo Wiggly variants

With the variants for the first and last sometimes including Muk from Fossil. Without S/ER, those all become the top tier, but decks like Turbo Arcanine become competitive, and most things are at least "functional".

I feel like one part of the Trapper deck should be banned, since Erika is actually a very fair card on its own, Imposter Oak's Revenge is fair in theory but not when run with Erika. The Rocket's Trap is a powerful hand control card that fails on a coin flip. Between the three of them, I'd say Imposter Oak's Revenge is the one to ban.

I am glad you understand my point about Imposter Oak's Revenge. I would like to point out that "tails fails" doesn't balance a card; on paper, it looks like it, because either the card is awesome or does nothing, but the practical side of things is that a lot of decks can afford room for an Item that does nothing half the time. Focus Band does nothing half the time. If you're still not convinced... okay. I mean, I could be mistaken. I just figure most folks won't want their entire hand got because getting down to a four or less card hand naturally does happen quite a bit, and we've got Computer Search and/or Item Finder to spam just one or two copies of anything.

Erika's Jigglypuff doesn't look like much, but with DCE and PlusPower that's a turn one attack that can KO just about any basic in the format. DCE is arguably necessary and PlusPower isn't enharently broken, so Erika's Jiggs will get the ban.

Glad you understand what I was saying about Erika's Jigglypuff; you know it had to be pretty potent considering it was hanging with (or outclassing) stuff like Haymaker. Well, actually I think it joined Haymaker, but that's splitting hairs at this point. Banning Double Colorless Energy should definitely be on the table; I don't know if it needs to be banned, but it has caused a lot of trouble since it returned, though most folks will blame the Pokémon it breaks instead of Double Colorless Energy itself.

If you try to attack a baby Pokemon there's a 50% chance your turn will just end. Doesn't that make setting up a baby Pokemon as your active a very powerful form of control that can stall out an opponent? Maybe they should be banned.

Yup, that was my point. All of the Neo-era Baby Pokémon have only 30 HP and no Resistance, but they have the Baby Rule, no Weakness, and a free Retreat Cost. The best of them have great attacks, at least for their situation. You can Gust of Wind or Double Gust around them, at least some of the time, but it does slow things down and not in a fun way. It is hard for most openers to compete with Cleffa (Neo Genesis) or Tyrogue (Neo Discovery).

Focus Band is strong, if there's a solid census that its too good then it'll get banned.

Sounds good.

Okay... and I'm really out of time now, so sorry I didn't fully cite certain cards.

 

[Subgenre]

If you scoured this message board, I think I had a thread a few years ago for a Base Set through Fossil format I was experimenting with and looking for help; I was going to experiment with various bans, but the few volunteers I had were in different time zones, so I gave up after just testing it with Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal banned. I could be mistaken, though, and have posted it elsewhere. Some of the older, great players have actually have been playing around with formats built around the first few sets. Apparently, the metagame for it isn't as settled as we might think, though most of the truly powerful cards are what you'd expect. I am not one of those old-school greats, however, so I learned about it from a common acquaintance. XP There's a fan format that had a semi-decent following in certain areas for a time known as "Unlimited 150".

Not saying you can't add one more, just warning you that these projects rarely get much traction. Most people don't even know about the rules variants recognized by TPCi; they aren't legal for competitive play, but for side events, TPCi has rules for 2-On-2, 30-card, and Team Battle.

I've heard of Unlimited 150 and looked into it. Given the community's resistance to formats outside of standard and expanded (and in my area it seems that even standard gets rejected) I'm really surprised it found a player base.

...

My suggestion was Neo Genesis through Legendary Collection, as it was temporarily the actual Standard Format, and came about specifically because WotC looked at the Neo Block (Neo Genesis, Neo Discovery, Neo Revelation, and Neo Destiny) and then took cards from Base Set, Jungle, Fossil, Team Rocket, and the early WotC: Black Star Promos and picked which ones were suitable to re-release for this express purpose.

Oh. I misunderstood your post. Oops.

Your initial comment didn't acknowledge Stadium cards as having existed prior to Expedition, hence my comment. There were no Supporter cards prior to Expedition, either, so they won't be acting like Items, they just won't exist. As per your comments about previous printings, older versions of Bill would be played as "normal Trainers" e.g. Item cards. I guess Pokémon Breeder joins that list thanks to Shining Legends, but there actually are not a lot of old school Trainers that were re-released as Supporters... at least with the same name.

Sorry for the confusion.

It's alright. My item comparison was primarily to explain how trainers worked back then to newer players who might not know about the older trainer rules.

[/quote]
Which pre-BW first turn rules? The original first turn rules were just that neither player could Evolve first turn. The first revision came with Ruby & Sapphire, at least if memory serves. There were two or three other revisions between then and the return of the original first turn rules for Black & White. Then there is what we have now. I don't remember them exactly, but some prevented a player from using any Trainers whatsoever first turn, others allowed only Items, and I think others allowed only Supporters... but it has been a long time since I used any of them, so we'll have to find a source to be certain.[/quote]

IIRC, the original rules were that you couldn't evolve first turn but you could attack. Trying to find information on old Pokemon TCG rules is surprisingly difficult.

There are many small rules changes you'll need to decide upon; if we can find an old rules book, it would be really helpful. Originally, you could retreat as many times as you wished during your turn, so long as you could pay the cost and weren't stalling (so no infinitely retreating two free retreating Pokémon). Then it was changed to once per turn.

If anyone has an older rules book kicking around I'd love to see it. The closest I've been able to find is an early 2000s fansite that has them, but I'm unsure of how accurate they are.

Although on that note, I feel like we should stick to the old retreat rules. The only reason why you'd want to retreat multiple times in a turn is to make use of all of those Pokemon Powers that are only usable when the Pokemon in question is active. And frankly, if its that important to you then I think the energy loss is a fair trade off.

Pokémon Powers were originally stopped by Confusion, Paralysis, and Sleep. Burn doesn't exist in the card pool we are discussing, and Poison wasn't added to the list until later. The term "Special Conditions" didn't debut until the Legendary Collection, at which point the older cards were ruled to be treated as if they said that instead of listing individual Special Conditions. So this isn't a rulings issue so much as something you'll need to point out to people unfamiliar with the situation.

Of course, that'll be clarified in the finalized rules.

When I have more time, I'll have to check out the Reddit. The short version is that putting it to a vote of those involved sounds good, though I hope you'll relay my arguments about Energy Removal. My testing gave the impression that sans S/ER, Base Set through Fossil went from having about three major archetypes

• Haymaker variants (beatdown/control)
• Raindance variants
  
• Turbo Wiggly variants

With the variants for the first and last sometimes including Muk from Fossil. Without S/ER, those all become the top tier, but decks like Turbo Arcanine become competitive, and most things are at least "functional".

I'm really hoping the expanded card lists helps in diversifying deck types, I hear you about S/ER, though. Those are some powerful cards that can set back an opponent several turns with little cost to you.

I am glad you understand my point about Imposter Oak's Revenge. I would like to point out that "tails fails" doesn't balance a card; on paper, it looks like it, because either the card is awesome or does nothing, but the practical side of things is that a lot of decks can afford room for an Item that does nothing half the time. Focus Band does nothing half the time. If you're still not convinced... okay. I mean, I could be mistaken. I just figure most folks won't want their entire hand got because getting down to a four or less card hand naturally does happen quite a bit, and we've got Computer Search and/or Item Finder to spam just one or two copies of anything.

That much is true. I imagine Computer Search being a staple in just about every deck, and The Rocket's Trap can easily become an unfun card to play against. I'm not inherently against the thought of hand control, but we'll see.

Glad you understand what I was saying about Erika's Jigglypuff; you know it had to be pretty potent considering it was hanging with (or outclassing) stuff like Haymaker. Well, actually I think it joined Haymaker, but that's splitting hairs at this point. Banning Double Colorless Energy should definitely be on the table; I don't know if it needs to be banned, but it has caused a lot of trouble since it returned, though most folks will blame the Pokémon it breaks instead of Double Colorless Energy itself.

DCE was a card I've considered adding to the list. It's a potent card no matter the era or the format, you just can't under estimate the value of a two-for-one energy card. Right now my primary concern is the knee-jerk reaction I imagine a lot of players would have to banning it.

Yup, that was my point. All of the Neo-era Baby Pokémon have only 30 HP and no Resistance, but they have the Baby Rule, no Weakness, and a free Retreat Cost. The best of them have great attacks, at least for their situation. You can Gust of Wind or Double Gust around them, at least some of the time, but it does slow things down and not in a fun way. It is hard for most openers to compete with Cleffa (Neo Genesis) or Tyrogue (Neo Discovery).

Cleffa in particular is just kind of ridiculous. You can spend several turns sitting behind it and using its attack to constantly refresh your hand until your plays are completely set up while your opponent has little in the way of options around it.

Sounds good.

Okay... and I'm really out of time now, so sorry I didn't fully cite certain cards.

It's alright. Thanks a ton for all your feedback, its been super helpful.

 

[Otaku]

I made an account for this post.

Welcome to the boards. I'm about to share some of my experiences with and analysis of the game. You're free to think I'm an idiot and completely wrong. Needless to say, it doesn't always match up with your own.

This format already exists and is still played in south america (I'm not from there but I know about it) They have a website over here. Jason Klaczynski wrote extensively on this base-neo format on his blog here. Everything rules related for wizards based formats should be here.

Thank you for the information! I'd only heard about Ness's stuff second hand, and I basically keep sneaking these posts in when I ought to be doing something else so I wasn't looking forward to an exhaustive search. If it only took a quick one, wow I failed and failed hard. >_<

A few major quirks you need to know about.
Metal energy's damage reduction is effected by self harming attacks weirdly. If you use double edge on a chansey with one metal attacked you do 60 to self and 70 to the opponent. The unown that reduce damage by 30 based on type of pokemon also apples to self damage (needless too say base chansey is really good). Trying to retreat while confused requires a coin flip. Theres more but if you read Jasons blog he should cover half of this stuff better then I am right now.

It isn't "Weird" so much as it a tad more complicated than usual. Metal Energy (the Special Energy card version, before any errata) caused the Pokémon to which it was attached to take 10 less damage, regardless of its Type. If it was not a Metal-Type, the the Pokémon would also do 10 less damage. This was per copy of the Metal Energy attached, as the effect stacked. Pokémon that do self-damage end up tripping both effects; the same was true with Sprout Tower.

I already mentioned the original rules or Confusion and Retreating.

That ban list is kinda funky and let me tell you why. First is Sneasel, if you look at the winners from the chile player's annual tournament you would see zero, thats right, ZERO SNEASEL. Why is this? It's not because Sneasel is banned (at least last time I checked only B-day pikachu is banned and slowking is eratta'd) but because in base-neo sneasel is only alright. Why? Well this is mainly due to two things. First SER and ER keep it extremely checked. With your only ways of getting dark energy on sneasel being special dark, rainbow, and Porygon2 from Neo Revelation, and with Sneasels energy cost being two dark, you can't abuse recycle energy and this is all added on top of how a lot of things one shot it (Chansey, Rockets Zapdos, Wigglytuff). Now don't get me wrong, Sneasel is great.

As someone having played the game - admittedly with the occaisional break and never amounting to much - since 1999, the main issue plaguing Pokémon is one of pacing, which in turn unbalances certain game mechanics, like Evolution. Often, the competitive card pool is, simply put, made up of "broken" cards. Some a little broken, some a lot broken. So many cards that are too potent for anyone's good, you get situations people didn't think could exist, like broken cards people weren't actually using at the time... because something even better required you choose between the two.

As mentioned earlier, S/ER keeps Sneasel in check, but it also wrecks most of the card pool, except for the historical greats and a few gems discovered or rediscovered over the years. There are many cards that were allowed, even beloved, during their time, that fall into a similar category: they operate above the rest. If someone wants to play with older cards to give them new life, it seems kind of silly keeping the stuff that made most of those older cards binder bait.

But there was a reason it wasn't banned in unlimited/standard (IIRC it was called standard back then for unlimited)

Here is where being a longtime player comes in handy. WotC didn't have the kind of tournament infrastructure for Pokémon that Nintendo/TPCi has provided... not even close. Sneasel released in December of 2000. The original "Rocket-On!" Modified Format, what we now think of as the 2001-2002 Standard Format, began on September 1, 2001 (approximately), where Sneasel was banned from day one.

What about the time in between? Do an online search for "Banned From STS", and if you're using the same search engine as myself, you'll find these giant, five feet tall cards of Sneasel from Neo Genesis. WotC did not put on anywhere near as many tournaments as we have under Nintendo/TPCi; there were only handful each year and most were tied into other big events. Some of these were the Super Trainer Showdowns. After Sneasel released but before Modified was adopted, there were three of these events; Sneasel dominated the first two, so it was banned at the third.

During this window, there was also an entire alternate format WotC developed to try to curb Sneasel an other problem cards before switching to Modified, called Prop 15/3 (or some similar variation, like Prop 3-15). The 4-Copy Rule was replaced with a 3-Copy Rule (like Yu-Gi-Oh!) plus a 15 card cap on your Trainers. It failed spectacularly. Something like Haymaker didn't like losing so many tricks but now had room for other tactics: meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Ok about the baby rule/pokemon. You shouldn't ban them. Cleffa is way too important to the format to do so. Why? Well Cleffa is the card that kills donk and first turn hand removal (Trapper decks) strategies single handedly, When you only know your attack is only going to go off 50% of the time why play with the Erika's jigglypuff? Why base your deck solely around killing your opponents hand if they just play 3/4 cleffa? Granted donks still happen but they are not what a player bases his deck off of anymore. Yeah Lass can suck turn one but thats why you play 4 cleffa, honestly when both players are very skilled players lass becomes an interesting mind game card. All the trapper cards otaku mentioned are really not that broken with cleffa in the format. You really have to build your deck around them to really make them work and cleffa really negates that.

Being important doesn't make the game balanced or fun. You can even have balance between some really potent cards but it is indeed a balance between them, not the entire metagame. Babies make donk decks... waitaminute, I was there, and I remember Baby Pokémon getting donked or even doing the donking! First Turn Knock Outs are unfortunately a feature of the card pool and rules of this time; if you want them gone, you'll have to use more modern first turn rules or invent your own. I suggest that any damage (not effects) of attacks done on both players first turns is ignored (giving time for setup). I've not tested it, so it could be a total crap idea. >.>

The thing is, even with Baby Pokémon, a donk had a 50% chance of happening. Trapper decks were hurt by them, but not enough that no one would play them. It may have even made matters worse; instead of a skilled player beating you with one, now it was that person who knew he or she couldn't cut it with something else. Even Cleffa only offers some protection; 50% chance Pulled Punch still scores the KO, your opponent doesn't have to worry about PlusPower so he or she can focus on the Trapper combo, and unless you top deck a draw card or Energy, its another 50% chance next turn. If you topdeck something like Professor Oak, you may be golden, but if it is just an Energy so you can "Eeeeeeek" for a seven card hand... you still only have that Cleffa in play.

If you have another Pokémon in play, and it isn't another Baby, your opponent can't get the donk (win via FTKO) but he or she can Gust of Wind it up for a fast Prize and maybe halt your setup. Oh, and did we bring up Tyrogue yet? 50% chance of doing 30 damage for [C] sounds bad, but he's the Baby that counters other Babies. You can accept a mere 25% chance of OHKOing your opponent's Cleffa but in exchange, your opponent has to flip to use Eeeeeeek!

 

[TheKangaskhanKid]

No gust of wind ban lol
garbage

 

[Otaku]

No gust of wind ban lol
garbage

Gust of Wind becomes a petty annoyance if you can't follow it up with a OHKO or strand something up front that can't easily return to the Bench. Especially with the rest of the card pool. It becomes a lucky break when you don't have easy draw/search/recycling so it's almost always handy. Even though this format will have both of these circumstances, it becomes worse without Gust of Wind. Think of all the Bench-sitters with Pokémon Powers that are basically broken if you can only go after them with attacks that force them up front

"So you used Lure, huh? I'll use Switch, so that a single Item completely voids the effect of your attack, and now I'll pull even further ahead as I attack for a KO!"
​

or Bench hits that were really weak in this era. I fixated on Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal not because they were Haymaker staples, but because removing them doesn't hurt much other than Haymaker (and Raindance and a few others) and instead helps several other decks flourish without them becoming the new overpowered monstrosity.

 

[Subgenre]

I made an account for this post. This format already exists and is still played in south america (I'm not from there but I know about it) They have a website over here. Jason Klaczynski wrote extensively on this base-neo format on his blog here. Everything rules related for wizards based formats should be here.

I'm glad to hear that older cards are getting love somewhere. Unfortunately, the Pokemon TCG community in NA has very little interest in exploring new ways to play the game.

A few major quirks you need to know about.
Metal energy's damage reduction is effected by self harming attacks weirdly. If you use double edge on a chansey with one metal attacked you do 60 to self and 70 to the opponent. The unown that reduce damage by 30 based on type of pokemon also apples to self damage (needless too say base chansey is really good). Trying to retreat while confused requires a coin flip. Theres more but if you read Jasons blog he should cover half of this stuff better then I am right now.

That ban list is kinda funky and let me tell you why. First is Sneasel, if you look at the winners from the chile player's annual tournament you would see zero, thats right, ZERO SNEASEL. Why is this? It's not because Sneasel is banned (at least last time I checked only B-day pikachu is banned and slowking is eratta'd) but because in base-neo sneasel is only alright. Why? Well this is mainly due to two things. First SER and ER keep it extremely checked. With your only ways of getting dark energy on sneasel being special dark, rainbow, and Porygon2 from Neo Revelation, and with Sneasels energy cost being two dark, you can't abuse recycle energy and this is all added on top of how a lot of things one shot it (Chansey, Rockets Zapdos, Wigglytuff). Now don't get me wrong, Sneasel is great. But there was a reason it wasn't banned in unlimited/standard (IIRC it was called standard back then for unlimited)
Ok about the baby rule/pokemon. You shouldn't ban them. Cleffa is way too important to the format to do so. Why? Well Cleffa is the card that kills donk and first turn hand removal (Trapper decks) strategies single handedly, When you only know your attack is only going to go off 50% of the time why play with the Erika's jigglypuff? Why base your deck solely around killing your opponents hand if they just play 3/4 cleffa? Granted donks still happen but they are not what a player bases his deck off of anymore. Yeah Lass can suck turn one but thats why you play 4 cleffa, honestly when both players are very skilled players lass becomes an interesting mind game card. All the trapper cards otaku mentioned are really not that broken with cleffa in the format. You really have to build your deck around them to really make them work and cleffa really negates that.
This whole post is a mess but I'll end it with this. Add the vending machine cards to the format and keep the promos era appropriate. The vending cards are very interesting especially in note the porygon promo and the gastly/haunter line from that set.

Thank you for all the information and insight. Assuming that we lived in a world where this format could get off the ground outside of SA, I think it might be smart to start with no ban list and see how people react. Of course, that has its own set of advantages and disadvantages. Not everyone is going to have fun playing a format where 3/4 'Mons in your deck MUST be Cleffa.

No gust of wind ban lol
garbage

This feedback was incredibly well written, complex, deep and gave good insight into an aspect of the game I hadn't though about. Thank you for your contribution.

 

[Otaku]

Unfortunately, the Pokemon TCG community in NA has very little interest in exploring new ways to play the game.

Yeah. Does that mean your attempts to get your Classic Format launched are meeting similar results to when I tried to just find playtesting partners for my B2FX format going? Yeah, I'm bad at naming things. XP

Things don't look too good when you consider that there are official rules for stuff like 2-on-2, 30-Card, and Team Battle rules sets, which can be used for any Constructed or Limited Format. Well, not so much 2-on-2; that one never sounded too exciting to me, unless I was trying to "break" some "Only while Active" effects. The other two, though... I remember being part of the Professor Program back in the day when WotC first introduced Team Battle (under a slightly different name) and how excited we were.

 

[Subgenre]

Yeah. Does that mean your attempts to get your Classic Format launched are meeting similar results to when I tried to just find playtesting partners for my B2FX format going? Yeah, I'm bad at naming things. XP

Things don't look too good when you consider that there are official rules for stuff like 2-on-2, 30-Card, and Team Battle rules sets, which can be used for any Constructed or Limited Format. Well, not so much 2-on-2; that one never sounded too exciting to me, unless I was trying to "break" some "Only while Active" effects. The other two, though... I remember being part of the Professor Program back in the day when WotC first introduced Team Battle (under a slightly different name) and how excited we were.

Yeah, unfortunately prodding around online has confirmed my suspicions that there's no real interest in pre-BW cards. Even in my local area most players only really want to play expanded and little else.

Its just so strange to me. Magic has five competitive formats, one of which was a fan format that was popular enough to become official, and all of them are played and have strong communities. Meanwhile, over here us Pokemon players have thousands upon thousands of available cards that are collecting dust in binders because nobody wants to find a way to play with them. There's so many possible ways to play the game - E-Card, ex, Diamond and Pearl, but despite that there's just no interest. I think the best attempt at utilizing the thousands of cards from the game's history is Unlimited 150, which is only really played in Europe.

I'm going to try and introduce Classic to some of my friends and maybe see if I can get it to grow at my LGS, but things aren't looking up.

 

[Otaku]

Magic has five competitive formats, one of which was a fan format that was popular enough to become official, and all of them are played and have strong communities.

Magic: the Gathering is the original TCG, isn't it, and not based on a pre-existing property? Officially targeting players 13+ and dating back to 1993.

Pokémon is an extension of what began as a Game Boy series. Officially targeting players 6+ and dating back to 1996 (in Japan).

Differences like these, and not settling for Yu-Gi-Oh! business model, are ae big reason why. If I knew more about MtG, I could probably go into more detail; one thing is that MtG gears more product for Limited play, while in Pokémon, its pretty much Pre-Releases and nothing else.

 

[TheKangaskhanKid]

Thanks, its just an annoying card to play against especially when just playing with friends.

Friend plays it in her espeon gengar, i said
"Take that card out or im not playing anymore"
She took it out



(its not standard either)

 

[Subgenre]

Differences like these, and not settling for Yu-Gi-Oh! business model, are ae big reason why. If I knew more about MtG, I could probably go into more detail; one thing is that MtG gears more product for Limited play, while in Pokémon, its pretty much Pre-Releases and nothing else.

As someone who plays both games (and formerly YGO), allow me to clear a few things up.

Yes, MTG products are all intentionally made for a wide variety of play, including limited formats like sealed (open a bunch of packs and make a deck from that) and draft (open a pack, take a card and pass it, repeat until you have enough cards to make a deck). Additionally, cards in new sets are made with formats beyond standard in mind. Just because a card is bad in standard doesn't mean it can't find a home in another format. Frankly speaking, this is something Pokemon just doesn't have with a majority of cards in its sets being complete junk.

Another major difference in Pokemon and Magic is how the game's power levels have evolved over time. In the early days of MTG, there were a lot of very, very powerful cards that still see play in non-rotating formats like Vintage and Legacy. Realizing that the sheer level of power creep was hurting the game, Wizards introduced cycling to allow them to have more control over the game's power level, allowing them to create formats with lower power. And thus, many newer MTG cards can't rival the power of older ones. Pokemon, on the other hand, has had the opposite happen. Cards in the early days played with much, much lower numbers and as the game progressed Pokemon became more and more powerful, despite having a rotating format meant to counter that phenomenon. Even if there was a format comparable to Legacy or Vintage, no early cards would be used because there's just better options now.

That being said, Expanded was created to meet the demand for an eternal format. We also have Legacy in PTCGO, but I doubt it'll ever make its way to paper format.

 

[signofzeta]

I kind of find it weird, aside from a few very scarce stores that support unlimited play, that cards from Base Set all the way to Call of Legends are illegal in all tournament play. Should there be more support from TPCi for the unlimited format?

What do you think about a Generational format?

A format where, let's say, Base set to Gym Challenge are legal.
A format where Neo Genesis to Skyridge are legal.
A format where ex Ruby and Sapphire to ex Power Keepers are legal.
A format where Diamond and Pearl to Call of Legends are legal.
A format where Black and White to BW Legendary Treasures are legal.
A format where XY to XY evolutions are legal.

 

[Otaku]

I kind of find it weird, aside from a few very scarce stores that support unlimited play, that cards from Base Set all the way to Call of Legends are illegal in all tournament play. Should there be more support from TPCi for the unlimited format?

It helps to remember that TCG products aren't "evergreen" with respect to Organized Play. I mean, think about what that really would mean: time and money constantly going towards keeping the cards playable in some capacity adds up really quick.

 

[Subgenre]

I kind of find it weird, aside from a few very scarce stores that support unlimited play, that cards from Base Set all the way to Call of Legends are illegal in all tournament play. Should there be more support from TPCi for the unlimited format?

What do you think about a Generational format?

A format where, let's say, Base set to Gym Challenge are legal.
A format where Neo Genesis to Skyridge are legal.
A format where ex Ruby and Sapphire to ex Power Keepers are legal.
A format where Diamond and Pearl to Call of Legends are legal.
A format where Black and White to BW Legendary Treasures are legal.
A format where XY to XY evolutions are legal.

I wouldn't mind something officially supported like this, although how I'd divide up the sets would be different. Base Set to Gym Challenge is a horribly toxic format without some of the Neo tech to stop the game from devolving into "who wins the coin flip" and I feel like the E-Cards should be played in their own format, as that'd be the only place they'd really thrive.

I think the biggest reason why TPCi doesn't support play revolving around older cards is because there's no money in the second hand market. That being said, not to bring up MTG again but to bring up MTG again Wizards solved this problem through the printing of special sets centered around reprinting old cards.

 

[signofzeta]

I wouldn't mind something officially supported like this, although how I'd divide up the sets would be different. Base Set to Gym Challenge is a horribly toxic format without some of the Neo tech to stop the game from devolving into "who wins the coin flip" and I feel like the E-Cards should be played in their own format, as that'd be the only place they'd really thrive.

I think the biggest reason why TPCi doesn't support play revolving around older cards is because there's no money in the second hand market. That being said, not to bring up MTG again but to bring up MTG again Wizards solved this problem through the printing of special sets centered around reprinting old cards.

You mean to say that those people's old pokemon card collection is worthless? D'oh

Should Pokemon print special sets centered around reprinting old cards?

I tend to associate a MTG set with a Pokemon TCG set depending when they are released, so Ixalan is to Crimson Invasion because they are the 4th set released in 2017. There are exceptions where 1 MTG set, the large expert expansion, is to 2 Pokemon TCG sets (in 2003 and 2004). This association emulates when you go to a card store, what are the newest MTG and Pokemon TCG sets are out at the time, and their release schedules are usually off by a month at most.

Other examples are:

Urza's Legacy is to Base Set
Coldsnap is to Crystal Guardians
Eventide is to DP Legends Awakened
New Phyrexia is to Black and White
Shadows over Innistrad is to Black and White

For beginning of 2002 to end of 2005, it would be like this:

Torment is to Neo Destiny
Judgment is to Legendary Collection
Onslaught is to Expedition Base Set
Legions is to Aquapolis
Scourge is to Skyridge
8th edition is to Ruby & Sapphire
Mirrodin is to Sandstorm and Dragon
Darksteel is to Team Magma vs Team Aqua
Fifth Dawn is to Hidden Legends
Champions of Kamigawa is to Firered & Leafgreen and Team Rocket Returns
Betrayers of Kamigawa is to Deoxys
Saviors of Kamigawa is to Emerald
9th edition is to Unseen Forces
Ravnica City of Guilds is to Delta Species

From there on in, both games release 4 sets per year

Enough rambling.

In MTG, the Modern format is 8th edition onwards.
In Expanded, what do you think would happen if instead of Black and White, it was ex Ruby & Sapphire onwards?

 

[Otaku]

You mean to say that those people's old pokemon card collection is worthless? D'oh

No, it means that their value is as a collectible or a nostalgia item, not product currently supported by organized play. Unsurprisingly, I cannot come up with a perfect or even a very good analogy, so I won't even try. It is simply something people must learn, or figure out a viable business model for changing how it works.

Should Pokemon print special sets centered around reprinting old cards?

Possibly. I would specifically like a more competent version of what they did with Generations. Instead of "Whee! Old art, different card!" I'd rather it was "See? We finally figured out how this card ought to function, so here's an errata and a new printing with the proper wording." Of course, this would not please people who enjoy the madness of modern Unlimited Format play.

I, on the other hand, would enjoy (or at least prefer) Slowking (Neo Genesis) finally function as it was meant to. Where all the character-based cards, including those with weird "proto-Supporter" like restrictions (see Professor Elm) that currently function as Items were finally made into Supporters. That last bit seems quite revisionist, but I'm just ready for Professor Oak to not only be a Supporter, but a Supporter simply named "Professor" and an errata making Professor Juniper, Professor Oak, and Professor Sycamore all the same card. I mean, that is actually less complicated than how it is currently being handled. @_@ That is me, though, and I realize I may be quite the oddball. XP