Ancient Origins [8/15, aka Bandit Ring]

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
With regards to Special Energy and what it may or may not do, the big issue is one of balance followed by theme. The short version is that there are plenty of things you can have an Energy do, but keeping it from being overpowered-but-relevant while also being on theme is tricky. A hypothetical new Special Energy version of Darkness Energy could perhaps allow the attacker to ignore all effects on the Defending Pokémon? Discard itself and an Energy from the opponent's Active when something with it attacks? Inflict Sleep?
 

Pikachu6319

Scooby
Member
There's no reason for a dark Pokémon to inflict sleep. That would have been far better for psychic, which became Mystery energy.

I suppose ignoring all effects on the defending Pokémon would be okay, but if we want to avoid repeats then we should remember Wonder energy (the fairy special) already does this. So why not just repeat what has already been done with dark energy before every other type (bar steel which came out at the same time) followed suit?

No other special energy requires discard just to be used and I don't think it fair that darkness should require it. The only time special energy gets discarded is either a forced removal, knock out, or if that Pokémon's type changes. I suppose it could be some compromise of this one, where perhaps the effect only kicks in if the defending Pokémon has more energy attached to it than the attacking Pokémon...

@Jungletoad: True there is no Masquerain EX (and sorry to say I think likely never will) but as for Masquerain love in general, so much of Ancient Origins is still unknown that it could still show up.
 
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bbninjas

Ready or Not!
Advanced Member
Member
Personally I wouldn't be surprised of the [D] energy is a version/reprint of the original Special Dark Energy, as the Shield Energy was a Metal Energy reprint. So basically a [F] for [D] types.
 

Ironman131

Aspiring Trainer
Member
If we do get a special dark energy and it does in fact add damage like the original it could make Dark type pokemon broken. It would mean that Yveltal EX could do 100 damage for two special energy and a muscle band. I think another option for the special dark energy could read something like the dark pokemon this energy is attached to as no retreat cost as a way to reprint Darkrai EX's ability. If there is a special lightning energy I can see maybe it saying after you attack your oppenents pokemon with the pokemon this energy is attached to then your oppenent flips a coin if tails they are paralyzed if heads the damage done is reduced by 10 damage.
 

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
There's no reason for a dark Pokémon to inflict sleep. That would have been far better for psychic, which became Mystery energy.

It would be better for Mystery Energy but that ship has sailed. Also remember that the TCG is not the video games; while it draws inspiration from them it does have some leeway... like for the obvious connection between darkness (...not the Type, but the lack of light) and sleeping (not the Special Condition, but actual sleep). After all if we were slavishly keeping to the video games, there would be no Energy cards in the first place (I guess PP could have been represented with a different color of counter...). ;)

I suppose ignoring all effects on the defending Pokémon would be okay, but if we want to avoid repeats then we should remember Wonder energy (the fairy special) already does this.

You have it backwards: Wonder Energy prevents the effects of attacks other than damage done to the Fairy-Type Pokémon to which it is attached; I am suggesting the effect seen on attacks like Shred, where the attacking Darkness-Type with this hypothetical Energy would be able to ignore the effects on the Defending Pokémon.

So why not just repeat what has already been done with dark energy before every other type (bar steel which came out at the same time) followed suit?

1) Potential game balance issues.
2) S'boring
3) Was there a good reason for Darkness Energy to boost damage in the first place other than being the opposite of the original Metal Energy?

No other special energy requires discard just to be used and I don't think it fair that darkness should require it. The only time special energy gets discarded is either a forced removal, knock out, or if that Pokémon's type changes. I suppose it could be some compromise of this one, where perhaps the effect only kicks in if the defending Pokémon has more energy attached to it than the attacking Pokémon...

You realize the card doesn't even exist, yes? I threw it out there as a quick example of "doing something different", not a Create-A-Card. For the record some Special Energy cards do discard themselves. A recent example would be Double Aqua Energy and Double Magma Energy. A classical example would be Boost Energy. This is included to help balance very powerful effects, and discarding an Energy attached to the opponent's Active would be a very powerful effect.
I want Energy that is neither overpowered nor under powered and I am really tired of the designers seemingly locking themselves into no-win scenarios because of what changes they will or will not accept (though perhaps it is those above them). ¬_¬ If they cannot violate the current template that seems to exist for Type specific Special Energy... well that is a good sign of why we won't be seeing a Darkness-Type specific one anytime soon. Double Dragon Energy already breaks precedence by being worth two Energy and by providing multiple Energy-Types (though this seems suited to Dragon-Types). If we were to get a for-Colorless-Types-only Energy (Double Colorless Energy works for everything and unfortunately keeps being reprinted) then an updated version of Boost Energy would be welcome... provided it did keep the Type-requirement part of the current template and still discarded itself at the end of the turn (as in the old version).

Personally I wouldn't be surprised of the [D] energy is a version/reprint of the original Special Dark Energy, as the Shield Energy was a Metal Energy reprint. So basically a [F] for [D] types.

Would I be surprised? A little, because if this was the plan then Strong Energy could have had a different effect. Plus Shield Energy is not the same as Metal Energy; similar but not the same. It also is one of the worst of the Type-specific Special Energy. =/
 

Ymmotisawesome

Aspiring Trainer
Member
It looks like hoopa's ability is to search your deck for 3 basic normal, ex or any pokemon and put them on your bench and pokemon company japan just hinted at how the deck is going to fit perfectly together. The unknown must do something important like disabling something or adding a boost.
 

dollyholly

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I knowwwwwww Groudon and Kyogre are fresh and pretty and new and staples to the XY expansion but wtf the Double Crisis set made me really frustrated with how repetitive it's getting. And I guess I'd be less frustrated if they learned new moves instead of Water Pulse and junk??? But they're not???? And why do I have to have 4 or 5 different cards of Pokemon like Fletchling available for up to expanded play clogging up my deck building box when kool stuff like Marowak and Dewgong don't have one card at all? Surely if they can make Pokemon like Togekiss deck relevant in Roaring Skies... SURELY if we're going with the "ancient origins" aesthetic here... we can get things like Xatu or Lunatone and Solrock or Alakazam or bring back Ampharos as EXs? I'm ready to eat my words when the set is released, but if we're gonna have crap filler like venonat in sets without any Venomoth for it to evolve into anywhere near it, I'm punching mudkips and teddiursa til I get my way!

TL;DR STOP THE CRAP FILLER AND REDUNDANT CARDS REPEATEDLY RELEASED KTHX

PS Errrgh, those uncultured swine in the commercial, acting like ANYONE should play with such beautiful cards like Hoope EX without a sleeve.
 
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whirlpoolm51

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I knowwwwwww Groudon and Kyogre are fresh and pretty and new and staples to the XY expansion but wtf the Double Crisis set made me really frustrated with how repetitive it's getting. And I guess I'd be less frustrated if they learned new moves instead of Water Pulse and junk??? But they're not???? And why do I have to have 4 or 5 different cards of Pokemon like Fletchling available for up to expanded play clogging up my deck building box when kool stuff like Marowak and Dewgong don't have one card at all? Surely if they can make Pokemon like Togekiss deck relevant in Roaring Skies... SURELY if we're going with the "ancient origins" aesthetic here... we can get things like Xatu or Lunatone and Solrock or Alakazam or bring back Ampharos as EXs? I'm ready to eat my words when the set is released, but if we're gonna have crap filler like venonat in sets without any Venomoth for it to evolve into anywhere near it, I'm punching mudkips and teddiursa til I get my way!

TL;DR STOP THE CRAP FILLER AND REDUNDANT CARDS REPEATEDLY RELEASED KTHX

PS Errrgh, those uncultured swine in the commercial, acting like ANYONE should play with such beautiful cards like Hoope EX without a sleeve.
What are you talking about lol first off there was no mention of venonats or fletchlings in this set and second of all ampharos ex is in the set hahaha
 

Pikachu6319

Scooby
Member
Well, actually Double Dragon energy does not break ultimate precedent. Double Rainbow energy gave two energies of any type as well. True though that it breaks recent precedent as Double Rainbow energy was last in the EX series I believe.

Ultimately, as bbninjas said, Shield energy was essentially a reprint of special metal energy. I believe that likely means a special dark energy will be an essential reprint of special dark energy. Does that make me right? No, it doesn't. We can all say it would be logical or it would be boring or it would upset balance or whatever we want. In the end, it will be what it is and no matter what anyone says it won't be changed.

In fact, the truth is that all we know is there will be new special energy cards. We have no proof that it will even be dark energy or lightning energy, though I know these two types along with water and fire are the obvious answers to what special energy could be. On the other hand it could be special energy just for Pokémon EX or M. Pokémon EX too. Or energy that only has an effect with Pokémon that have powers and/or bodies. Or something none of us can guess, especially if they don't want to fall on old tricks. We just don't know enough right now. I remember that when we heard about Mega Turbo from Primal Clash it was largely assumed it'd be a special energy card and it turned out to be a trainer.

And for the record, I'm not sure we can worry too much about overpowered cards when we've had most of the last formats virtually dominated by EX Pokémon like Mewtwo EX, Yveltal EX and the upcoming (basically reprinted) Lugia EX.
 

SotS

Cycling the Stress Away
Member
What are you talking about lol first off there was no mention of venonats or fletchlings in this set and second of all ampharos ex is in the set hahaha

He's talking about the abundance of certain Pokemon existing in multiple new sets, while others get none. And he's right, it kind of sucks, especially if you're a fan of the "forgotten" 'Mons.

..There hasn't been a Dewgong since XY started, huh?
 

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
Well, actually Double Dragon energy does not break ultimate precedent. Double Rainbow energy gave two energies of any type as well. True though that it breaks recent precedent as Double Rainbow energy was last in the EX series I believe.

I am aware that Double Dragon Energy is not a new effect; it broke precedent for the modern, Type specific Energy cards as Herbal Energy, Strong Energy, Mystery Energy, Shield Energy and Wonder Energy provide only one unit of Energy. I am sorry I was unclear that I was shifting to the pattern we had seen in this latest string of Type-specific Special Energy cards and not in general. After all I mentioned three other Energy card, all Standard legal, that provide more than one unit of Energy: Double Aqua Energy, Double Magma Energy and Double Colorless Energy.

Ultimately, as bbninjas said, Shield energy was essentially a reprint of special metal energy. I believe that likely means a special dark energy will be an essential reprint of special dark energy. Does that make me right? No, it doesn't. We can all say it would be logical or it would be boring or it would upset balance or whatever we want. In the end, it will be what it is and no matter what anyone says it won't be changed.
Then why are you discussing it at all? People like to point out Shield Energy, which is why I put forth the counterarguments I did; three reasons why if we get a Special Energy exclusive to the Darkness-Type, it would be unlikely to be like (Special Energy) Metal Energy and Shield Energy.

In fact, the truth is that all we know is there will be new special energy cards. We have no proof that it will even be dark energy or lightning energy, though I know these two types along with water and fire are the obvious answers to what special energy could be. On the other hand it could be special energy just for Pokémon EX or M. Pokémon EX too. Or energy that only has an effect with Pokémon that have powers and/or bodies. Or something none of us can guess, especially if they don't want to fall on old tricks. We just don't know enough right now. I remember that when we heard about Mega Turbo from Primal Clash it was largely assumed it'd be a special energy card and it turned out to be a trainer.

This was kind of my point, though I was unaware that people thought that the long running template of Energy cards having "Energy" established in the original Base Set would be broken now. While there have been some exceptions, they weren't actual Energy cards (at least when not attached to something else), like Holon's Castform.

And for the record, I'm not sure we can worry too much about overpowered cards when we've had most of the last formats virtually dominated by EX Pokémon like Mewtwo EX, Yveltal EX and the upcoming (basically reprinted) Lugia EX.

It seems unlikely they would change the direction and vision for the game to something I would find more appealing, you are correct.
 

Shining Goodra

Dogecoin
Member
It looks like I've picked the perfect time to rejoin in on the TCG scene, with Roaring Skies and now Ancient Origins, it has only dragged me in more and motivated me more to go back and give competitive play another shot.
 

bbninjas

Ready or Not!
Advanced Member
Member
Woah that Jolteon! Looks like some Rayquaza hate right here :v

And Paint Roller xD Loving the flavour there!
 

Cobalt Phoenix

Best Kappa
Member
Vileplume AOR probably won't see play until Seismitoad leaves the format, and even then, will it even be played? 130 HP is pretty substandard for a Stage 2 nowadays and it removes BOTH players' abilities to play items? It's balanced yes, especially when compared to the disgusting monster that is Seismitoad EX, but decks nowadays can easily hit for 100+ in the early game. I dunno. Vileplume was great back in HGSS-on but now? Guess we'll have to wait and see.
 

ForeignDude

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Well then, Jolteon a Rayquaza counter? Nooo...it can't be. :p

It's super cool to see that annoying Vileplume back!
 

Jaaaaay

Fear the Six Karp Fisherman
Member
Ah the return of vileplume. Item lock that doesnt require your pokemon to be active or an attack will allow for some crazy lock decks to pop up again.
 
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