Don't forget Cold Flare and Charged Ice, sorry I forgot the move name, new powers could just refer to those move.
Metalizard said:You have a point there. But I think you answered it yourself:
I'd like to think they have formes all thought out by the time they're putting the Pokémon into the first set of games, but then that would mean they intentionally held back on releasing Sky Forme and Origin Forme until a later game... Which just seems odd.
Meloetta's aria and pirouette formes both being in Black and White isn't another case at all.Metalizard said:Because if that happened, it would be in BW game data and people would see it. Giratina's Origin Forme wasn't in DP's game data either. Also, this movie won't have Meloetta, so that's another case...
EDIT: I also read you blog post and it definetely makes sense...
Ryu Shoji said:Honestly, I don't even see why people are expecting Kyurem to get an alternate forme. Sure, Giratina got one - but Blastoise, Pikachu, Suicune and Rayquaza didn't. Something cannot be confirmed as a pattern unless it happens three or more times and something cannot be suspected as being a pattern until it happens twice - the third version mascot getting a new forme has only happened once, so it is more than likely to be nothing but an isolated incident now.
People argue that Kyurem represents wuju; which is the absence of yin and yang as well as "Absolute Zero" - so Kyurem having no "generator" or one that looks out of use makes perfect sense.Mitja said:If Giratina never got a new forme, Id still argue that Kyurem would, because unlike Giratina who looked perfectly fine visually and statwise, just look at Kyurem, its a mysterious counterpart to Reshiram/Zekrom without a generator, icy bits partially broken and lower stats.
Giratina having gotten a new forme doesnt tell me there is a pattern, but rather proves that its not impossible that they could include a pokemon not existing until third version, because they already did once.
It actually seems to me like Giratinas Origin forme (along with Skymin) might have been made up after DP release, whereas Kyurem was planned with a later upgrade in ind from the beginning.
Ryu Shoji said:People argue that Kyurem represents wuju; which is the absence of yin and yang as well as "Absolute Zero" - so Kyurem having no "generator" or one that looks out of use makes perfect sense.
As for lower stats; Rayquaza's base stat total wasn't the same as Groudon and Kyogre's, but it didn't get a new form. Giratina's was the same as Dialga and Palkia's to begin with, but it still got one. IF Kyurem receives a new forme (which I highly doubt), considering the existence of both of Meloetta's formes in BW, it would scream to me that GameFreak make up this crap as they go along, which I severely doubt.
Dark Void said:Little flaw in your logic there, Rayquaza, Kyogre, and Groudon all have 680 base stats. So far, we've never had a legendary trio where at least 2 are mascots, and the third doesn't have the same stats. Therefore, there is no precedent whatsoever for Kyurem. There's a better argument for Cobalion being the third mascot (think G/S/E) than for or against Kyurem getting a new form(s), really.
How was it made with a new forme in mind? Think about it - Kyurem represents wuju, which is the absence of Yin and Yang and absolute zero, which is the absence of heat. Thus, Kyurem's design makes perfect sense when you think of it like that and how it relates to Reshiram and Zekrom - Reshiram has the element of Fire which is an ancient symbol of life. Zekrom has the element of electricity, which is a modern symbol of life. Both have the power to give us energy (thus life) and to destroy - like how each individual human has yin and yang. Kyurem, being wuju, has no yin and yang - thus, no energy.Metalizard said:^No, actually, Groudon & Kyogre have 670 BST...
@Ryu Shoji: Yes, Meloetta is another case because it won't be a game mascot. Grey has to have something new and I think Kyurem will have a new forme not because Giratina had one, but because its design and relation with the other 2 members of the Tao Trio suggest so... Like Mitja and I said earlier, it was clearly made with a new forme already in mind...
As another user has pointed out, Groudon and Kyogre have a base stat total of 670, whereas Rayquaza's is 680. It's not much of a difference, but it is a difference. As for Cobalion; I honestly used to think it would have been better if GameFreak reworked Black and White's story to be about the Sacred Swordsmen as opposed to shoe-horning Kyurem into the Reshiram and Zekrom story. However, now that Kyurem has been announced as the main star of the movie (After all, it's not Cobalion & The Sacred Swordsmen VS Kyurem) I have been convinced that Kyurem will be the mascot.Dark Void said:Little flaw in your logic there, Rayquaza, Kyogre, and Groudon all have 680 base stats. So far, we've never had a legendary trio where at least 2 are mascots, and the third doesn't have the same stats. Therefore, there is no precedent whatsoever for Kyurem. There's a better argument for Cobalion being the third mascot (think G/S/E) than for or against Kyurem getting a new form(s), really.
Ryu Shoji said:How was it made with a new forme in mind?
Also, if Kyurem was designed to have an alternate forme, why was it not programmed into Black and White? After all, Meloetta will be released after Grey, so why was Meloetta's other forms included in BW but not Kyurem's? The "Because Kyurem is a version mascot and Meloetta isn't" argument is silly and without foundation - after all, Shaymin wasn't a version mascot and its Sky forme was excluded from Diamond and Pearl - same with Rotom and its forms. GameFreak including Meloetta's Pirouette forme in Black and White is obviously them trying to avoid the compatibility problems that plagued Diamond, Pearl and PBR.
As for Grey adding something new. Well of course it's bound too - how about fitting Kyurem into Reshiram and Zekrom's story? Rayquaza didn't receive a new form and its inclusion into Groudon and Kyogre's story was really good.
It affects the possibility because Meloetta will not be available before Grey is released and GameFreak obviously knew that when they made Black and White. Meloetta's Pirouette forme was more than likely added in because GameFreak know they cocked up with Generation VI by having Diamond, Pearl and Pokémon Battle Revolution unable to show Giratina, Shaymin, Rotom and Pichu's new forms. Otherwise, why didn't GameFreak just leave the Pirouette form for Pokémon Grey, like Sky Forme Shaymin?Metalizard said:I'm kinda tired of seeing people trying to connect Meloetta to Kyurem as if there was any relation... So what if Meloetta's both formes are in BW? How does that affect the possibility of them giving Kyurem a new forme exclusive to Grey?