Discussion Will you be playing Tate and Liza post rotation?

rewster1

rewster1

Aspiring Trainer
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Asking for a friend who likes making lock decks. If so, just a one of tech, or a full set? It's a pretty bad draw supporter, and everyone seems to be going max consistency, I'm just trying to gauge how worried people are about item lock and status conditions... for my friend of course...
 
I certainly won't ignore it, but it really depends on the meta. Some decks don't really care much about switching, and then I'd only play it if item lock were a huge thing. In decks where switching is critical, I'd play a few since Guzma is gone.
 
Snoopy said it best. If lock style of decks become a huge thing in the metagame at leagues or regionals, then I'll definitely tech 1 or 2 in.
 
rewster1 said:
It's a pretty bad draw supporter...
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Is it really, though? If I am reading too much into your word selection, please kindly disregard what I am about so say and ask. XD

Purely viewed as a draw supporter, I'd call Tate & Liza mediocre; Cynthia is Shuffle-and-draw for six, so we're just one less than the best. Factoring in the alternate switching effect, I'd say Tate & Liza is at least "decent". We already had a phase where Tate & Liza was a one-of for most decks; I'm pretty sure that, for your friends purposes, even if Tate & Liza is a "skip" for most decks, the local meta will adjust if the proposed lock deck is any good.
 
When take in consideration the lack of discard and insta play cards we could see less consistent draw six lillies leading to more usage of t&l
 
AuraJackle said:
When take in consideration the lack of discard and insta play cards we could see less consistent draw six lillies leading to more usage of t&l
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I wrote a whole discussion that unfortunately accidentally got deleted about how Lillie is losing alot of its value post rotation. Quick note. No Lele No Ultra Ball with very few discard cards, also we want to hold onto more combo pieces, meaning that cards like Ericka's is better overall.
 
I meant t&l as a pure draw supporter, the fact it's the only non item switch card next format is what I'm (I mean... my friend is) wondering about.
I agree Lillie gets worse, but also agree Erika is probably the de facto replacement for a lot of people, even though it may take longer to fill benches. Personally I'm still playing sightseer in most of my decks, it just feels better getting up to 5 new cards than shuffling everything back for possibly 2 or 3 of the same cards, and Erika is a worse bill against certain decks even though on average it is great. In general though my questions have been answered, its something people are only playing after they see a viable lock deck in action.
 
As raw draw support I think T&L is very low priority. It's not a bad standalone card, but in context I currently see no use for it for any of the anticipated strong decks immediately after rotation (PikaRom, Malamar, Blacephalon, Gardeon, Dark Box, ReshiZard, etc) with the other draw supporters we have available.

We're getting things like Rollerskater and Coach Trainer soon for conditional draw 4 cards and keep your hand...which means you can have 7 cards in hand and still dig 4 into your deck and not feel like poo because you drop your hand from 7 to 5. Rollerskater in particular I feel is going to be huge whatnot with Malamar looking even better next rotation - specifically the TinaChomp build - and Viridian Forest most likely being the most played stadium card in the format to put energy in the discard for discard-based acceleration and search for low energy counts. For the most part I actually feel like Rollerskater has potential to just upright replace Lillie in any deck running Viridian Forest since with the loss of Ultra Ball and Lele, both the frequency and potency of T1 Lillie has dropped significantly, and outside of T1 she's a "win more" draw supporter that's only good if you already have cards in hand to play down. IMO the main point of a draw supporter is to get you out of situations when you have nothing to play, and arguably there are more situations where Rollerskater is live and will on average dig deeper into your deck than Lillie post rotation, but that's besides the point.

People will always adjust their decks towards the metagame. If item lock isn't a thing thing then T&L doesn't need to be a thing. Honestly when it comes to switching options, people would probably just play PikaRom since they already run Zeraora GX so they don't even need items or supporters to switch in an item lock environment.
 
rewster1 said:
Asking for a friend who likes making lock decks. If so, just a one of tech, or a full set? It's a pretty bad draw supporter, and everyone seems to be going max consistency, I'm just trying to gauge how worried people are about item lock and status conditions... for my friend of course...
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Yes, definitely. I personally find Tate & Liza to be of "value" since in most of my decks, there would be 2+ Pokémon with an "expensive" Retreat Cost (i.e., CCC+) which will aid opponents who use stalling tactics (or Item-lock, Status conditions, etc.).

Whether Item-lock, Status condition(s) (especially Confusion and Paralysis) and/or stalling, I find Tate & Liza to be a solid counter to those tactics.
 
The new deck I'm building will rely on mostly switching every turn. I'll be playing a couple U-Turn boards, as well as a couple of copies of switch, but I'm seriously considering adding a couple of T+L. Not as great as Cynthia for draw, but that switching option is gold when you're in a pinch, and can be found with Pokegear so I think it's a viable option going forward for a lot of decks - especially with special conditions making a resurgence with the ChuChu Tag Team-GX.
 
There's not enough disincentive to play Items, (e.g. Garbodor GRI) or item lock (e.g Seismitoad EX). Switch will be sufficient. For most decks, I'd rather Cynthia, shuffle for 6, and hope I draw a Switch (or Escape Board, even!) or burn up as many cards from my hand as possible, and then Lillie and draw into Switch. The chance to draw into Switch and get other stuff, seems to be a better deal than Tate & Liza-ing to go to the bench and get no cards.
 
The question anyone should be making for post-rotation (and for that matter, at any time you build a deck) deck choices is not "Is this card useful if my opponent does this and this?", it actually is "Would I play this card over any other option?", and, if the card is mediocre, "What situations warrant this card can be useful and not any other card I would rather see in my hand?" (unless, of course, you're making a stall deck whose specific card choices always aim at countering the opponent).

In that case, Tate & Liza unfortunately is inferior to any other draw option, making it fail the first mark, and is also inferior to Switch and Escape Board, making it fail the second mark. If you're under item lock, got an undesirable pokemon on active and then, Tate & Liza would be useful, I'm pretty sure your deck has a biggest issue with allowing an item lock deck to setup in this format.
 
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NicoNoo said:
The question anyone should be making for post-rotation (and for that matter, at any time you build a deck) deck choices is not "Is this card useful if my opponent does this and this?", it actually is "Would I play this card over any other option?", and, if the card is mediocre, "What situations warrant this card can be useful and not any other card I would rather see in my hand?" (unless, of course, you're making a stall deck whose specific card choices always aim at countering the opponent).

In that case, Tate & Liza unfortunately is inferior to any other draw option, making it fail the first mark, and is also inferior to Switch and Escape Board, making it failt the second mark. If you're under item lock, got an undesirable pokemon on active and then, Tate & Liza would be useful, I'm pretty sure your deck has a biggest issue with allowing an item lock deck to setup in this format.
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Agreed, T+L isn't better than any other individual supporter, but I think it's definitely a contender to take up a spot in addition to your ideal supporter lineup if you have room. The fact that it's findable with Pokegear, and gives you an option between drawing and switching is great, but not over a pure draw supporter like Cynthia which is just superior.
 
You are mistaken, @NicoNoo

The short version is you're ignoring versatility and TecH, which are major factors when it comes to building a good deck. The question is "What will help me win more?" The answer usually lies where speed, power, reliability, versatility, and utility all intersect (probably some other factors I've spaced off). Especially at high level play.

Remember the specific thread: @rewster1 "has a friend" considering a lock deck for the post-rotation Standard Format. Should it prove successful enough, it could very well make it worth swapping out a Cynthia for a Tate & Liza; you give up a little draw power - in turn, sacrificing some of your deck's reliability and/or speed - for added versatility as one of your shuffle-and-draw cards can instead be used as a switching card. I'm guessing the reason rewster1 and friend aren't worried about Switch itself is that the combo blocks Item cards.

Edit: To be clear, I'm still considering this from a hypothetical perspective; I am uncertain of the post-rotation Standard Format, and figure I'll have to wait until after Worlds to get a grasp of it. XP If shuffle-and-drawing six cards versus five cards remains important enough, and/or the aforementioned "secret lock deck" isn't up to snuff, clearly we all ought to just stick with Cynthia. Or Lillie. Or whatever are the best Supporters.
 
What secret lock deck? Beheeyem + Triple Acceleration energy (pretty much the only "consistent" lock deck post-rotation) will have enough trouble putting both Beheeyem and Triple Acceleration Energy on play, only for 90 damage. If their secret lock deck is the other legal lock card (Cryogonal + Counter Catcher to put high retreat cost mons on active), then like I said, that's a problem inherent to the deck, and, in that case, Tate & Liza would warrant usage... if it wasn't for the fact that a deck like that could only win against Malamar post-rotation. All the other decks have inherent tools available to cover a weakness against item lock by not having fodder mons like Malamar does.
 
Don't worry, the secret deck (I mean, realistically I have around 20 weird item lock deck ideas, some with omastar, some with beheeyem, even a cryogonal idea) isn't going to worlds, or any other tournament, because I play almost exclusively online. So by the time I actually build the deck(s) it will be a week or so into the next format. I was just probing to see if people are concerned at all about decks like that, because obviously T&L is sort of a trump card vs all of them, item lock, paralysis lock, both together somehow, etc. Of course there is kabutops omastar... hmmm. Need some of those new stadiums I guess.
 
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