Discussion Welder

Mega Mewthree...

Mega Mewthree...

A new threat has appeared.
Member
I apologize in advance if this post takes on a ranting tone.

Hey everyone. I have been playing against decks that take advantage of the new supporter card Welder and I believe that this card is extremely overpowered. So much so that it needs either an errata or ban to keep current gameplay fair. I propose 5 new versions of the card to keep it fair. For those of you not aware of what the card does, this is what it says.

Attach up to 2 fire energy cards from our hand to 1 of your Pokemon. If you do, draw three cards.

My Objections
Up to 2
My first objection is that this card has little to no limit to its use. Any deck that plays this card will obviously have fire energy in it and thus any time you play this card you get to attach at least 1 free energy to any Pokemon. Even if you are not using the full effect of this card you still get to benefit from it.

To 1 of your Pokemon
Although I understand that this card will mostly see play in fire decks, it is not limited to that. You can use it to power up Eevee & Snorlax GX in one turn. In expanded you can attach multiple energy per turn to Mega Mewtwo EX or Mega Rayquaza. Their is no limit to this card and it strongly pushes the meta in favor of any kind of fire deck.

Draw three cards
By far my biggest complaint is the draw three cards factor. This card takes speed to a new level by combining energy acceleration and draw support. Being the first and only card to do so it outclasses any other card that could be played against it.

The count
Welder is just a normal supporter card. This means that you can play four in each deck and get it back with Pal Pad or Lusamine. Assuming that you only use the normal 4, you are able to accelerate 8 energy per game. This is more than any trainer before such as Max Elixir which could only be used to accelerate 4 energy max.

My suggestions
I do not want to sound like I am just complaining and therefore propose a number of ways to make this card more fair.

Setting a requirement
This card is extremely valuable and most players attach 2 energy with it whenever they can. However when they cannot I believe that they should not be able to use this card. I would propose that this card be changed to read, "Attach 2 fire energy from your hand to one of your Pokemon." This will make the card harder to use but also more rewarding to use. I don't think that it is that bad of a compromise.

Who benefits
Although most players use this card to attach to Reshizard GX it can be used on anyone such as the aforementioned Eeveelax GX or baby Blacephalon. It would be better if this card included a Pokemon requirement such as "only GX pokemon" or "only basic Pokemon".

Draw support
The draw part of this card allows you to draw 3 cards whether you attach 2 energy or 1. This cards draw effect is the equivalent of the supporter card Hau, which has the sole effect of letting you draw three. This card takes an already established supporter and adds to it without any negative side effects. I would suggest that the number of cards drawn be reduced or even removed completely. Cards comparable to Welder such as Pokemon Breeder, Professor Kukui, Mars, and others only let you draw 2 cards after using their additional effect. I propose that because Welder has such a strong effect that this should be reduced to a 1 card draw.

Card status
Welder is a normal supporter that can be used many times over (thanks to Lusamine and Pal Pad) and sometimes even twice per turn (thanks to Lt. Surge). It provides the same consistency and availability as any other card out there. However, it provides a boost similar to that of a Prism card. Therefore, I believe that it should be changed to Prism Star status or include the "you must have less prize cards than your opponent to play this card" disclaimer to provide a usage limitation.

Other cards
I know that if you have made it this far, then you are probably thinking, "This guy is so wrong. He's just another one of those meta-haters." While I understand how you might see it that way, I would like to show some recent and expanded cards that are completely outmatched by Welder.

Mina
The card Mina allows a player to search their deck for 1 fairy energy and attach it to one of their Pokemon. This card shares the energy acceleration support but notice that it is only 1 energy and includes no draw support backing.

Zinnia
The Zinnia card came out within the last year and will still be included in the standard format along with Welder in the coming rotation. This card allows you to attach 2 basic energy cards from your hand to one of your Dragon type Pokemon. This card can only be played if one of your Pokemon was knocked out during your opponents last turn. This card shares the energy acceleration boost but comes with a very important restriction. In addition, these energy can only be attached to Dragon Pokemon. And notice the lack of additional draw support.

The Masked Royal
The Masked Royal allows you to attach a basic energy from your hand to one of your stage 2 Grass, Water, or Fire Pokemon. This card only allows you to attach 1 energy from your hand and only to stage 2's of 3 types. Again, note the lack of additional draw support.

Hau and Looker
The simplest of all draw supporters. These card just lets you draw 3 straight cards. Welder does this and more. Completely getting rid of an already fair card.

Professor Kukui, Mars, and Pokemon Breeder
As mention above these cards all let you draw two cards and use an effect. Note on these cards that none of them impact energy attachment which is a crucial and important part of the game.

Max Elixir
Max Elixir allowed you to look at the top six cards of your deck and attach 1 basic energy you found there to any of your basic Pokemon. While this card was an item, there was no way to get it back. There was also very little ways to guaranty the benefits of this card and your chances dwindled as the game went on. It also includes the only basics restriction.

Blacksmith
Probably the most comparable card to Welder. This card let you attach 2 fire energy from your discard pile to one of you fire Pokemon. This card only allows for attachments to fire Pokemon from the discard. It does not have any draw support inclusion.


What I would do?
New Welders

Welder Supporter
Attach 2 fire energy cards from your hand to 1 of you basic Pokemon. If you do, draw 1 card.


Welder Supporter
Attach 2 fire energy cards from your hand to 1 of you fire Pokemon. If you do, draw 1 card.


Welder Supporter
Attach 1 fire energy card from your hand to 1 of your Pokemon. If you do, draw 2 cards.


Welder Supporter
Attach up to 2 fire energy cards from your hand to 1 of your Pokemon.


Welder Prism Star Supporter
Attach up to 2 fire energy cards from your hand to 1 of your Pokemon. If you do, draw 3 cards.




Thank you for putting up with this long post. Let me know if you agree or tell me why you don't.
 
Last edited:
It's good but not overpowered. To use it requires that you to have at least an energy in hand. It also requires pokemon that support the use of fire energy. It just so happens that fire pokemon are also very good at this time.


It can very often be a dead card. To ensure it's not then deck space must be utilized to increase the consistent usability of the card which makes it less "BUSTED". It feels pretty balanced and as more cards come out it'll fall in line.
 
Just some fact checking, as I am uncertain onto which side I fall for this debate:

Mega Mewthree... said:
Up to 2
My first objection is that this card has little to no limit to its use. Any deck that plays this card will obviously have fire energy in it and thus any time you play this card you get to attach at least 1 free energy to any Pokemon. Even if you are not using the full effect of this card you still get to benefit from it.
Click to expand...

I inquired and in this instance, "Up to 2..." does not include zero. As such, if you have no Fire Energy in hand - and yes that does happen - you don't get to draw. Now, if it let you draw first, then attach up to two (and that included zero), that would be pretty ridiculous.

Mega Mewthree... said:
The count
Welder is just a normal supporter card. This means that you can play four in each deck and get it back with Pal Pad or Lusamine. Assuming that you only use the normal 4, you are able to accelerate 8 energy per game. This is more than any trainer before such as Max Elixir which could only be used to accelerate 4 energy max.
Click to expand...

Blacksmith let you attach two basic Fire Energy cards from your discard pile to one of your [R] Type Pokémon. It could be reused via Pal Pad and VS Seeker. Later it could be reused via Puzzle of Time. If that isn't good enough, then what about Sableye (DEX) and Dark Patch? None of this proves that Welder is balanced but it does prove that being able to access a potent effect more than just four times or even more than just eight times in a game is not new in the slightest.

Mega Mewthree... said:
Other cards
I know that if you have made it this far, then you are probably thinking, "This guy is so wrong. He's just another one of those meta-haters." While I understand how you might see it that way, I would like to show some recent and expanded cards that are completely outmatched by Welder.
Click to expand...

Clearly outperforming another card does not make a card automatically broken, just as being clearly surpassed by a broken card does not make a card balanced. Additionally, there are many factors to consider e.g. the rest of the card pool. There are also differences such as from where the Energy is attached and what kind of Energy may be attached.

For example, Mina attaches from the deck (better than from the hand) while Zinnia works with any basic Energy (as opposed to only one Type). Neither has proven particularly competitive. Blacksmith is Welder's equal because it attaches two from the discard pile. Without the draw effect, Blacksmith would be better than Welder. Being able to reuse the same Energy cards over and over again is powerful!

Again, I haven't made up my mind whether Welder is balanced or not; use these points to craft a better argument for your position. When you post inaccurate arguments, you tend to push me towards the other side... and I'm the kind of player who is happy Double Colorless Energy is rotating because I believe it is "too good" for the metagame. My main beef with Welder is that she can be used on a player's first turn, so Player 2 can attack before Player 1 ever has a chance to manually Evolev, while Player 1 may be able to use Welder two turns in a row and attack before Player 2 gets a chance to manually Evolve.
 
Welder exist to let cards like reshizard and baby blacephalon be good and there not even broken other decks have acceleration or attack for a single energy and that doesnt require they use of a hand with 3 specific cards to be in hand. I reccomend learning that the pokemon card game is all about type archetypes that require cards like welder in order to make a certain type like fire or colorless attackers be better while still holding to the core values of that type and if you cant beat reshizard or whatever then it's very simple play it or play a deck that can handle the matchup or accept the auto loss
 
I never thought Welder was severely broken - Just a very powerful card. True, it does add major power to Blacephalon and ReshiZard, and is literally the backbone of making those decks work. But it also allows to other cards to shine as well that could never work otherwise. Like, Blissey LOT finally gets some nice energy acceleration, and I've made this crazy Entei/Magcargo deck that was surprisingly effective, too. It's an 'enabler' card in my books, and depends on the powers of the Pokemon that utilize it - Which I'm glad can be not just fire types.

Additionally, the 'Draw 3' effect has too often been considered an inferior supporter role ever since the late BW era, often snubbed for N and Juniper/Sycamore. Adding such a nice effect to a weaker draw makes for different supporter engines to awaken. ReshiZard may have won many different tournaments, but the deck lists vary quite a lot, as if there is so much more to explore about this card upon deckbuilding - And ways for opponents to exploit it as well. We need more supporters like this for other types to round things out!

If there was one card can I think deserves to be banned right now, I'd put the finger on ULP Oranguru, as it is starting to be cancerous to the format. The Shedinja 'Infinite Loop" fiasco is the most absurd control deck that it has enabled at the moment. But that's a different discussion altogether.
 
Last edited:
Hey everyone I really value all of your input. In response to Otaku, I added examples of similar cards to show that even in the standard format it outclasses everything. I feel that the way Tag Teams are more powerful then normal GXs and therefore let your opponent take 3 prize cards because welder is so much more powerful than other cards in its class it should also be given some form of restriction (such as Prism Star status or only being able to use it while losing). To be clear, I do not think that welder should be banned, just revised to one of the 5 versions I included at the bottom.
 
Man you've made a terrible argument for why Welder needs nerfing. You're objections is literally just to read the card's effects to us and compared it to cards that are just terrible (with the exception of Blacksmith) so is a low bar to cross. There are going to be cards that are better and worse then others so there will always be a best card. That isn't reason enough enough to nerf it

Nerfing (or banning since they're functionally the same thing of removing the current state of the card from the game) is inherently a negative for the game because you are removing or reducing options for players to have access to. As such nerfing/banning the card needs to benefit the game as a whole to be a net positive. So the card has to be so powerful that it over centralizes the game to the point that players only choice is to play that deck. The card has to be so stifling that by removing it, players gain more options to play.

Welder just being super powerful and better then other supporters that have come before it is not reason enough to nerf Welder. You need to prove that the game on the whole is worse with its current existence and that nerfing or removing it will make it significantly better
 
CrownAxe said:
You're objections is literally just to read the card's effects to us and compared it to cards that are just terrible (with the exception of Blacksmith) so is a low bar to cross.
Click to expand...
You are mostly right CrownAxe. I believe that while all Pokemon cards are different, so as to be played in thousands of different ways (where some turn out better, hence the Meta), trainers are all designed to be played. Therefore, they should all have relatively similarly powered effects. The effects of Welder super-boosts cards that have high energy cost attacks (and subsequently do more damage). To me this removes an entire archetype of deck making from competitive play. That of 2 hit KO decks. Because of decks like Reshizard that can be powered up on the first attacking turn, all decks that strive for the 2 hit KO such as Zoroark, Beast Box, and Zapdos (though less so) lose relevance. It also defeats the purpose of these attacks even having a high energy cost attack because the requirement is so easily met.

CrownAxe said:
Welder just being super powerful and better then other supporters that have come before it is not reason enough to nerf Welder.
Click to expand...
I think that Welder should be nerfed because it is the only supporter out of all of them with its tier of power. Because this power only applies to decks capable of using fire energy, I object to it. However, I will gladly rescind my argument once other cards with the same power, yet effecting other types, appear in the format.
 
Wechselbalg said:
Which is very difficult to do in a format with Fire Crystal, Fiery Flint, Viridian Forest and Energy Retrieval /s
Click to expand...

Can't help but notice the high performing Reshizard lists do not run all of those.

AJBinVA said:
All valuable deck slots.
Click to expand...

Which is probably why said lists don't run all four of those in the same deck.

Wechselbalg said:
That's like saying Switch, Escape Board, Escape Rope and Electropower take up valuable slots in Zapdos decks.
Click to expand...

A card being useful doesn't mean it isn't using up valuable space in a deck. As I mentioned with the arguments made by @Mega Mewthree... when they're not good arguments, they hurt your case. Every Fire Crystal run is less space for a different valuable card. One should expect the cards actually being included in a deck are going to provide the best value for that deck, at least if it is an optimal build. That doesn't mean the next best option has no value, or that it won't ever be more useful than the best option.

If I'm not being clear, just insert a piece of TecH in place of each Fire Crystal. Fire Crystal is the best thing overall, but in the key matchups where the TecH would matter, the TecH would have been better. Should the metagame change substantially, the space lost to running Fire Crystal so that later instances of Welder have the Energy they need to attach in order to even be playable thus does matter.

Let me try and make the case for why Welder isn't good for the game overall.

First, let me draw attention to what I said, which is different from the original thread topic. You see, I believe there are many cards that are too powerful for the good of the game because (short version) I think it is within the ability of the powers-that-be to create a Pokémon TCG where there is balance between different Types and the different Stages, and where a higher percentage of the cardpool is competitive. I believe that ought to be their goal to maximize customer satisfaction, player retention, and ultimately, profits. Why? We all love different Pokémon, so if you favor any, it is at the expense of someone else's favorite(s). However, I also recognize the safer approach is business as usual.

So, why is Welder a problem? One of the fundamental mechanics of Pokémon is Evolution. It is also one of the iconic mechanics of Pokémon. In both cases, I mean the overall franchise and not just the TCG. How it is designed, higher Stages need more time to hit the field. The easiest way to balance things out is not to make Evolutions that much stronger, or to give them shortcuts; it has been tried, at best it works for a little bit before blowing up. I'm not sure how to handle all the existing cards that are too fast and cause problems, but we can at least consider whether a card is among the troublemakers.

Enter Welder. She provides Energy acceleration via Supporter. Why is that an issue? She can be accessed on a player's first turn. Whether as a lucky bonus or a reliable plan of attack, this creates pacing issues. Not only will Evolutions have to deal with all the previously established problem cards which cause pacing issues, Basics that can start wrecking Evolving Basics and Stage 1 cards before their Evolutions hit the field, but now some [R] Types are added to that long list.

So what do we do about it? We do nothing, other than staying informed and discussing the matter. What could the powers-that-be do about it? For now, still nothing. In the short term, Welder is strong but not so strong that it is causing immediate problems. In the distant future, it might have to be banned from Expanded... or a reprint include a clause like "You cannot use Welder during your first turn." Or something like that. Long before that, though, we need HP scores to increase across the board while damage output is (at least temporarily) reduced. Newer Evolving Pokémon should help with setting up better. Nothing that can hit the field during a player's first turn should be geared for attacking for KO's. If this sounds familiar... it is a butchered attempt at my usual spiel about how the game could be improved.
 
Mega Mewthree... said:
I apologize in advance if this post takes on a ranting tone.

Hey everyone. I have been playing against decks that take advantage of the new supporter card Welder and I believe Redtube Beeg Spankbang that this card is extremely overpowered. So much so that it needs either an errata or ban to keep current gameplay fair. I propose 5 new versions of the card to keep it fair. For those of you not aware of what the card does, this is what it says.

Attach up to 2 fire energy cards from our hand to 1 of your Pokemon. If you do, draw three cards.

My Objections
Up to 2
My first objection is that this card has little to no limit to its use. Any deck that plays this card will obviously have fire energy in it and thus any time you play this card you get to attach at least 1 free energy to any Pokemon. Even if you are not using the full effect of this card you still get to benefit from it.

To 1 of your Pokemon
Although I understand that this card will mostly see play in fire decks, it is not limited to that. You can use it to power up Eevee & Snorlax GX in one turn. In expanded you can attach multiple energy per turn to Mega Mewtwo EX or Mega Rayquaza. Their is no limit to this card and it strongly pushes the meta in favor of any kind of fire deck.

Draw three cards
By far my biggest complaint is the draw three cards factor. This card takes speed to a new level by combining energy acceleration and draw support. Being the first and only card to do so it outclasses any other card that could be played against it.

The count
Welder is just a normal supporter card. This means that you can play four in each deck and get it back with Pal Pad or Lusamine. Assuming that you only use the normal 4, you are able to accelerate 8 energy per game. This is more than any trainer before such as Max Elixir which could only be used to accelerate 4 energy max.

My suggestions
I do not want to sound like I am just complaining and therefore propose a number of ways to make this card more fair.

Setting a requirement
This card is extremely valuable and most players attach 2 energy with it whenever they can. However when they cannot I believe that they should not be able to use this card. I would propose that this card be changed to read, "Attach 2 fire energy from your hand to one of your Pokemon." This will make the card harder to use but also more rewarding to use. I don't think that it is that bad of a compromise.

Who benefits
Although most players use this card to attach to Reshizard GX it can be used on anyone such as the aforementioned Eeveelax GX or baby Blacephalon. It would be better if this card included a Pokemon requirement such as "only GX pokemon" or "only basic Pokemon".

Draw support
The draw part of this card allows you to draw 3 cards whether you attach 2 energy or 1. This cards draw effect is the equivalent of the supporter card Hau, which has the sole effect of letting you draw three. This card takes an already established supporter and adds to it without any negative side effects. I would suggest that the number of cards drawn be reduced or even removed completely. Cards comparable to Welder such as Pokemon Breeder, Professor Kukui, Mars, and others only let you draw 2 cards after using their additional effect. I propose that because Welder has such a strong effect that this should be reduced to a 1 card draw.

Card status
Welder is a normal supporter that can be used many times over (thanks to Lusamine and Pal Pad) and sometimes even twice per turn (thanks to Lt. Surge). It provides the same consistency and availability as any other card out there. However, it provides a boost similar to that of a Prism card. Therefore, I believe that it should be changed to Prism Star status or include the "you must have less prize cards than your opponent to play this card" disclaimer to provide a usage limitation.

Other cards
I know that if you have made it this far, then you are probably thinking, "This guy is so wrong. He's just another one of those meta-haters." While I understand how you might see it that way, I would like to show some recent and expanded cards that are completely outmatched by Welder.

Mina
The card Mina allows a player to search their deck for 1 fairy energy and attach it to one of their Pokemon. This card shares the energy acceleration support but notice that it is only 1 energy and includes no draw support backing.

Zinnia
The Zinnia card came out within the last year and will still be included in the standard format along with Welder in the coming rotation. This card allows you to attach 2 basic energy cards from your hand to one of your Dragon type Pokemon. This card can only be played if one of your Pokemon was knocked out during your opponents last turn. This card shares the energy acceleration boost but comes with a very important restriction. In addition, these energy can only be attached to Dragon Pokemon. And notice the lack of additional draw support.

The Masked Royal
The Masked Royal allows you to attach a basic energy from your hand to one of your stage 2 Grass, Water, or Fire Pokemon. This card only allows you to attach 1 energy from your hand and only to stage 2's of 3 types. Again, note the lack of additional draw support.

Hau and Looker
The simplest of all draw supporters. These card just lets you draw 3 straight cards. Welder does this and more. Completely getting rid of an already fair card.

Professor Kukui, Mars, and Pokemon Breeder
As mention above these cards all let you draw two cards and use an effect. Note on these cards that none of them impact energy attachment which is a crucial and important part of the game.

Max Elixir
Max Elixir allowed you to look at the top six cards of your deck and attach 1 basic energy you found there to any of your basic Pokemon. While this card was an item, there was no way to get it back. There was also very little ways to guaranty the benefits of this card and your chances dwindled as the game went on. It also includes the only basics restriction.

Blacksmith
Probably the most comparable card to Welder. This card let you attach 2 fire energy from your discard pile to one of you fire Pokemon. This card only allows for attachments to fire Pokemon from the discard. It does not have any draw support inclusion.


What I would do?
New Welders

Welder Supporter
Attach 2 fire energy cards from your hand to 1 of you basic Pokemon. If you do, draw 1 card.


Welder Supporter
Attach 2 fire energy cards from your hand to 1 of you fire Pokemon. If you do, draw 1 card.


Welder Supporter
Attach 1 fire energy card from your hand to 1 of your Pokemon. If you do, draw 2 cards.


Welder Supporter
Attach up to 2 fire energy cards from your hand to 1 of your Pokemon.


Welder Prism Star Supporter
Attach up to 2 fire energy cards from your hand to 1 of your Pokemon. If you do, draw 3 cards.




Thank you for putting up with this long post. Let me know if you agree or tell me why you don't.
Click to expand...
I reccomend learning that the pokemon card game is all about type archetypes that require cards like welder in order to make a certain type like fire or colorless attackers be better while still holding to the core values of that type and if you cant beat reshizard or whatever then
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top