"Knock Off" Shock Lock — Post-Dallas Rogue Profile and Recap

RisingRaichuu

Aspiring Trainer
Advanced Member
Member
Why no Stoutland? I mean, they can just Guzma out of it, right Surely the Lillipup/Herdier/Stoutland lock is much more convincing than Sableye to me.
 
Why no Stoutland? I mean, they can just Guzma out of it, right Surely the Lillipup/Herdier/Stoutland lock is much more convincing than Sableye to me.
Maybe read the entire article before commenting on something that was explained in the article.

Lusamine is banned. That was the only way that the Stoutland ShockLock could loop and not deck out. That can't happen anymore.
 

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
Why no Stoutland? I mean, they can just Guzma out of it, right Surely the Lillipup/Herdier/Stoutland lock is much more convincing than Sableye to me.

If you do have four Tropical Beach and you're comparing both decks, it comes down to what you're willing to make concessions with.
Stoutland has a VASTLY better lock condition, but as a Tropical Beach deck, it tends to move a lot slower and have a tendency to rely very heavily on Tropical Beach. It CAN have the lock up by turn 2, but it needs a good good draw for it to happen.
The addition of Team Rocket's Handiwork is a newer addition to Shock Lock, but with Lusamine gone, the deck does not have a reliant way to proactively mill the opponent quickly and it might revert back to its previous versions to where it gets Stoutland and the Paralysis lock going and hope their opponent scoops in sheer awe that the lock is so oppressive.

Knock Off is more consistent in terms of draw power and can withstand hand disruption. I think Red Card and Let Loose Marshadow will continue to play a significant role in Expanded going forward despite Delinquent being banned.
Girafarig acts as your quasai-Stoutland for Supporter/important anything lock
It can easily finish a Bo3, whereas the Stoutland version has heavy pressure to win G1 or else it's shooting for a tie at best.

It comes down to: do you want a less consistent but more oppressive lock? Or a more consistent but less/more awkward oppressive lock?

Maybe read the entire article before commenting on something that was explained in the article.

Lusamine is banned. That was the only way that the Stoutland ShockLock could loop and not deck out. That can't happen anymore.

Not entirely true. They can spam AZ and Pal Pad and go infinite as long as they AZ a Herdier or a Stoutland that wasn't Rare Candied. They use AZ on the Stoutland/Herdier, evolve into Herdier next turn (or if they have a Lillipup out already, evolve that one), get Pal Pad back and shuffle in AZ and something else. It's pretty brilliant.
 
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birdboy2000

Bird Keeper
Member
Suicune-GX is also an anti-deckout option although I don't know if Shock Lock has the bench space. I'm using it in my non shock lock expanded stall deck myself. Not 100% sure I need it, realistically your opponent's gonna burn cards much faster almost every game, but it's nice to have around for peace of mind.
 

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
Suicune-GX is also an anti-deckout option although I don't know if Shock Lock has the bench space. I'm using it in my non shock lock stall deck myself. Not 100% sure I need it, realistically your opponent's gonna burn cards much faster almost every game, but it's nice to have around for peace of mind.

It can be an option, the big problem is that is doesn't serve any purpose other than serve as anti-deck out, which the deck can be in danger of doing but it doesn't happen often enough to warrant it.

The current iteration uses a combination of Ultra Ball (to discard Pokemon/Energy) and Rescue Stretcher/Super Rod and VS Seeker for N to go infinite and not deck out. I had to do this against Durant in Round 9.
 

CrownAxe

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Maybe read the entire article before commenting on something that was explained in the article.

Lusamine is banned. That was the only way that the Stoutland ShockLock could loop and not deck out. That can't happen anymore.
Stoutland Shock Lock existed BEFORE Lusamine came out. It's not the reason the deck worked
 

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
This was a very nice and fun article, Its really good to see some more interesting and definetly more affordable lock decks talked about in detail, and its nice to see someone that knows their probability math as well.

Thanks for the input! I don't have the best budget out there; never really have. So making budget builds and disseminating them is something I enjoy doing.

And you can thank Rukan Shao for getting me onboard the math wagon. He has written a few articles in the past that delved heavily into the hypergeometric side of things. I'll make a seperate post later in competitive content regarding an online calculator and how to use it. It's really facinating stuff and using it can help figure out if you're undervaluing or overvalusing certain deck aspects. If you can throw math at it, do it!

I have a few questions about your thoughts on some aspects of the deck, as well as some silly tech ideas:

Okay. Go!

Would it be better to cut one of the Faba for Enhanced Hammer?
This would give you the ability to remove special energies while still using another supporter and you'd still be able to put it in the Lost Zone that turn if needed with Girafarig. Im assuming you want 4 Faba to have as many as Seismitoad's DCE?

Faba plays a big role here, and in the version I'm messing with for post-Unbroken Bonds, it's worth running four. It plays a dual role:
- gets rid of Special Energy, the decks that this affects the most are ones that lean hard on Double colorless Energy
- gets rid of tools, something you ABSOLUTELY need for Garbodor matchups

I suggest using 4 for the post-Dallas fix because I believe that the next upcoming Expanded Regionals will see Zoroark-GX / Garbodor as THE Zoroark-GX deck to play--at least where we are currently standing, it's up there. The only way they can nail you with Garbotoxin and have it stick is if they attach a Tool AND N you in the same turn. You have several outs to both Raichu AND Faba and you're always drawing a six card hand. From experience, as long as you have your out to Faba, you more than likely have your Raichu out as well.

While it does eat up a Supporter for the turn, it's able to answer multiple problems while simultaneously giving you more room in your deck to use other things, whereas Enhanced Hammer only has one use. Multi-tool cards are good business!

Why no Red Card? 1 copy being repeatbly usable with Junk Hunt seems like it could be really useful to try and slow them drawing outs to shock lock.

I have considered Red Card. But it fell to the wayside similar to how this build can't use Trick Shovel + Hiker: theres no way for you to capitalize on it. Being able to VS Seeker-to-N and putting an opponents hand to 2 or 1 is really what you're shooting for in late game. You don't N in mid game unless you need a draw option from an opponents recent N play. It's always early and late game where hand disruption comes in. But yeah, it's usually not worth disrupting an opponents hand as, if they don't draw into the solutions they are trying to look for, they flat out don't have it. An opponent can have a 14 card hand of zero answers, it's better to use that deck space for consistency and bolstering your own outs.

For the Celebi Prism tech to function vs Item Lock have you considered using Ditto Prism and Sparkling Ripples Milotic? Ditto remains functional as an extra Pikachu when not needed, and Milotic remains functional by being loopable with double devolution spray, essentially opening the option for Junk Hunt to grab you energy and stadiums as well, which also makes the Silent Lab option way more useful by letting you never run out of it.

I put a LOT of time trying to work Celebi Prism Star and other weird stuff (like Champions Festival. I wasted a week trying to work with that stupid thing) as a way to beat Trevenant and Item lock builds. It's easy getting set up, but keeping those Evolutions in hand in the face of Red Card, Marshadow, and multiple N without being able to use Ultra Ball or Level Ball is HARD. I have considered Milotic, as well as Crawdaunt (Ability is a come-into-play Team Flare Grunt), Roserade (come into play Computer Search), Misdreavus (come into play, N for only your opponent), Delcatty (come into play Lusamine), Ninetales (come into play Lysandre), Herdier (Come into play Dowsing Machine), and considered the new Alolan Muk. Everything listed except for the new TEU Alolan Muk is searchable by Level Ball as well. I did try out a sort of 'Ditto Prism toolbox' for a bit. It's a fun idea, and I'd put the most stock into Dragons Exalted Roserade (#15), if you Prize your Ditto, it stings, and it's not something you want to spend a turn fetching out with Gladion as that's a LOT more trouble than its worth. It is something I am considering for the post-Unbroken Bonds variant.

Also at least one stadium is needed to avoid auto loss to Wondrous Labyrinth removing access to Junk Hunt and Life Forest permenantly making Grass pokemon not stay paralyzed. Black Market seems potentially really powerful, since it offers a simpler alternative lock of just looping Junk Hunts while making them unable to take prizes.

I've been eyeballing Black Market Prism Star. Been considering it, but I have no idea where to put it. The other part is that, because your opponent has to use Guzma to get out from under Paralysis lock, chances are they will tend to dodge going after Sableyes if they can help it. You CAN theoretically win and not rely on Paralysis lock if you can mill all their Stadiums. The problem is being able to do so since a lot of decks are packing 3 Stadiums on average. The prospect is nice, but I haven't been able to test it enough to form a solid "it's good/it's bad". That said, it makes for a VERY good early or late game play from what limited testing I have done with it so far

The only deck at Dallas that could effectively use Life Forest Prism Star was Cradily, and the ban of Lusamine kneecapped the deck. Zoroark-GX / Golisopod-GX COULD use it, but with a seeming decline in Zoroark-GX / Seismitoad-GX and potential talks that Archies Blastoise may be using EEvee & Snorlax-GX instead of Magikarp & Wailord-GX, I have to question if the Grass-typing is worth it in a meta where Grass Weakness isn't nearly as prevalent. Expanded doesn't have a lot of good Grass options, and I don't think Celebi & Venusaur-GX will cut it as it seems to be a slow moving deck.

And if you really wanted to get crazy, you could run Wonder Labyrinth yourself, with counter energy letting you continue to Junk Hunt as long as the opponent has taken at least one prize.

Thought aboiut Wonder Labyrinth. The thoyght of 1/4 of the decks Energy being forced on you to attack seems a bit much. I feel like it'd hurt you more than others, and the only decks it truly would hurt is Zoroark-GX builds, and you have favorable matchups against all the variants except Zoroaro-GX / Golisopod-GX. But with a lot of Special Energy reliant decks utilizing a tiny number of Basic Energy, they can circumvent the negative effect of Labyrinth. I'm not keen on the idea that it will 100% hurt me, but kinda sorta might hurt them.

Not sure how many of these ideas can fit into a 60 card list or how good they are in practice, but thought Id at least mention them. Sorry if post is a bit long and rambly.

It's all good. You never know unless you ask! IF you think of anything else, throw them at me!
 

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
If anyone is interested in the post-Unbroken Bonds version, here it is for your testing pleasure:

POKEMON: 15
- 4 - Pikachu (Any Pikachu as long as it has Nuzzle. Perfect time for those Radiant Collection full arts!)
- 4 - Raichu (BUS)
- 3 - Sableye
- 2 - Emolga (TEU. It can snag out Pikachus!)
- 1 - Ditto Prism Star
- 1 - Mr. Mime (GEN. Bench Barrier. MAke sure it's the fairy one because it at least has Darkness Resistance)

TRAINERS:
- 4 - Professor Sycamore
- 4 - N
- 4 - Faba
- 3 - Team Rocket's Handiwork

- 4 - Ultra Ball
- 4 - Level Ball
- 4 - Pokegear 3.0 (Item, look at your top 7 cards, pick a Supporter, put it in hand, shuffle your deck. This is what replaces Jirachi-EX)
- 4 - VS Seeker
- 3 - Devolution Spray
- 2 - Super Rod
- 1 - Computer Search

ENERGY: 8
- 8 - Darkness Energy

This is the STREAMLINED version. You don't have to go with Computer Search, I prefer it because it gives you an average of 73% of drawing out of T1 Red Card/Let Loose as opposed to 70% if you didn't. Plus, Computer Search can fetch any card at any time in the game and will ALWAYS be helpful.

You CAN go with Scoop Up Cyclone. If you do, you can cut 1 Devolution Spray and that spot can be open to tech options: Black Market Prism Star, Le Parfum Roserade, 4th Handiwork. Your call!

Stoutland Shock Lock existed BEFORE Lusamine came out. It's not the reason the deck worked

It didn't need Lusamine, but Lusamine being able to loop Handiwork allowed it some degree of being able to go infinite or win more games in Bo3 instead of, "my lock is so impressive, I hope you scoop." Before Lusamine, and now, if a game is 1-1 and you're cutting close on time, an opponent that's on the losing end could (legally) "draw-go" and stretch it into a tie instead of a loss.
 

Javi Blizz

Spanish TCG Player
Member
@Merovingian , no Girafarig in the new list? I’ve been playing the deck recently, and I like it, so I want to continue using it as long as possible.

Also, considering Unbroken Bonds, no LT. Surge?
 

optimal_max

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Entertaining and enlightening article. I greatly enjoyed your writing style and your insights into this version of the lock deck.
 

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
@Merovingian , no Girafarig in the new list? I’ve been playing the deck recently, and I like it, so I want to continue using it as long as possible.

Don't get me wrong, I love what Girafarig can do. Girafarig makes sense in the current build because you are more at risk of an opponent taking a 2-Prize KO from Jirachi-EX and the need to get rid of their Guzmas via Get Lost bears a lot more relevance.

In the Jirachi-EX-less build post-Unbroken Bonds, you're guaranteeing a 6-Prize game, which means they need MORE resources to win while you need to mill LESS. Which means that a deck that uses 2 Guzma and 4 VS Seeker, you need to mill only one of their outs to potentially put them out of the game.

That said, Girafarig loses significant value against a deck that uses 3+ Supporter outs (like 2 Guzma and 1 AZ via ZoroPod builds) or decks that use 7+ outs. In either case, you're best off milling the opponent aggressively and re establishing the lock when they do bust it.

The problem with the Unbroken Bonds build is that, without Emolga, setting up is a LOT more luck based and harder to establish. Emolga lets you get out Pikachus every turn (especially from Super Rod) and acts as a good pivot.

If Archies Blastoise / Whales gets pushed out of tier, it might be worth considering replacing Mr. Mime with Girafarig; as the only big Bench-hitting deck would be Pikachu & Zekrom-GX and you might be able to eat the extra KO if it means taking Guzma out of the equation. This would be assuming that the Pikachu & Zekrom-GX are more commonly built with one Guzma post-Unbroken bonds (right now, I keep seeing a mix of one or two Guzma and it's impossible to map out).

Also, considering Unbroken Bonds, no LT. Surge?

I'm not a fan of Lt. Surge's Battle in this build post-Unbroken Bonds. 'Battle helps if you use an aggressive deck (Pheromosa & Buzzwole-GX) or have a Supporter toolbox of sorts (Sableye / Garb). Here, we have a bunch of draw Supporters, Handiwork, and Faba. We don't really have a combo to achieve or much reason why we'd need to use any combination of these cards simultaneously in a turn. I don't think Let Loose and Red Card will make their way out of Expanded any time soon and I'd value focus on consistency on being able to establish/re-establish lock.

Entertaining and enlightening article. I greatly enjoyed your writing style and your insights into this version of the lock deck.

=finger guns=

Glad you enjoyed it! If I can somehow quit being terrible at this game, I might be able to write more.

That, or blackmail.

I think I'll have an easier time with the blackmail route.
 
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Javi Blizz

Spanish TCG Player
Member
@Merovingian I suggested Surge since I usually find at least a Faba/Rocket and a Vs (maybe even 2) in my hand. Double Faba or double Rocket sounds pretty powerful (asuming you don’t get 3 or 4 tails).
 

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
@Merovingian I suggested Surge since I usually find at least a Faba/Rocket and a Vs (maybe even 2) in my hand. Double Faba or double Rocket sounds pretty powerful (asuming you don’t get 3 or 4 tails).

I have terrible luck, and the prospect of rolling 3-4 tails would be a devestating personal blow.

I think it comes down to reading the situation and playstyle. I play super conservatively with this deck and expect(ed) that I'm going to be hit with "Exodia"(not applicable anymore)/N/Let Loose/Red Card at any point in the game. At the time, I thought that a lot of decks were using Girafarig--turns out it was just control decks using it. But I refrained from having more than one Handiwork in the discard pile because of this.

I lean more to the side of keeping the extra Handiwork and Faba in hand because if an opponent hits you with some hand disruption, you stand a greater chance of drawing back into them as opposed to blowing through them using Lt. Surge's Battle. I figure there are only two scenarios for Lt. Surge's Battle in here: You are either really behind of it's a 'win more' card.

- You are far behind and need to use Faba twice
- You have established lock and have the option of using Faba and Handiwork at the same time. In this case, you are winning already.
- Using double Handiwork. Again, if this is happening, you are already winning.

This is conjecture at this point, I'll proxy up some post-TEU Expanded decks once the meta starts to solidify later this month before I shunt in some Lt. Surge's Battle.

Have you made any changes in the deck where it could be implemented?
 

Javi Blizz

Spanish TCG Player
Member
I see your point then about Surge.

The only changes that I’ve done are due to not having more than 3 Vs Seeker and 2 Faba available atm, so I’ve included 3 Paralell City, which is working really nice. I’ve been playing the deck in the PTCGO (with 1/1 tournament won/played and several wins in the ladder mode) and in my local store (ended 2W/2L/0T, the lost matches were against Vileplume (item lock) and against M Gardevoir (Match 1 I didn’t draw any energy or Sycamore in 7-8 turns nor have bench space for Jirachi/Lele and match 2 I got my 3 Vs Seeker prized).

I was considering to add Gladion, but I don’t think it’s worth. In PTCGO, my biggest issue have been Wobbuffet and Vilplume. Greninja is a great threat imo, although that deck is a bit inconsistent, so you still can win.

Also, the highest that I usually play are League Cups, so maybe my opinion is not the most helpful
 
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