Discussion Does Greninja have a place after rotation?

crowfeather4

crowfeather4

R.I.P. Night March
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With the new rotation coming up, and the release of Burning Shadows, people have been back and forth on whether Greninja will still be relevant post-rotation. What are your thoughts on it? Personally, I think it will still remain strong, especially with Guzma, Acerola, and Choice Band.
 
I couldn't agree with you more. As a Greninja player who has done a lot of testing in the current format and post-rotation, believe me Greninja is here to stay. I've heard many people claim Giratina Promo will destroy Greninja's hopes of tournament success, but that requires the majority of decks to actually run it which I don't see happening. With the exclusion of Volcanion due to weakness, I will be very surprised to find it anywhere else because it's useless unless you are versing Greninja or Zoroark. Also with Forest of Giant Plants not only going out of format, but actually being banned from play hopefully we will see a major decrease in grass decks that Greninja auto loses too. While yes it's true Greninja may slow down and become a little less consistent in the next rotation, the entire format is suffering this same fate. All in all, Greninja has more to gain than lose in the next rotation, so hopefully it will hit the ground running this September.
 
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I personally believe it will stick around, it still is a hassle to pilot but rewards the late stages of the game/longer games really well. Currently it wouldn't be my first choice because counters are around but like Decidueye GX I believe it to be one of the strongest "Rogue decks" meaning players who have been around know it's around but a lot that just entered the format likely have no idea how to work against it. Essentially I see it as a stronge Tier 2 deck. With the prime difference between it and strong Tier 1 decks being the time required to make the set up complete.
 
Is Acerola actually in the deck? I mean you have to evolve all the way to Break again...
 
mrfr1day said:
Is Acerola actually in the deck? I mean you have to evolve all the way to Break again...
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It would be for if you have 2 Breaks and 1 regular out. Break is damaged, Acerola, evolve the other one. It might not work out though, needs some testing.
 
Not having dive ball will slow it down, but I think it will still be a good deck. It's what im running in this months tournament here on pokebeah.
 
It'll be a threat for sure. Field Blower is a thing to counter Garb. Hex Maniac is out. Forest is out. Acerola makes 170 HP one-Prize attackers even more difficult to Knock Out. @F4H_Jay is right in the fact that losing Dive Ball and Rough Seas hurts. With that being said, you're gonna be able to build a different version of the deck and include newer cards that make this deck /disgusting/ like Guzma.
 
I tested a post-rotation build a couple weeks ago at my league, and I got wrecked...then again, I was playing against a Golisopod deck tho so lol.

I think the deck will remain firmly where it is: just outside of tier 1 because of its consistency woes. Will a slower format help it? Absolutely! Like every other deck tho it loses Seekers, which will take a TON of time to get used to for everyone, especially when the deck relies so heavily at times on Fisherman. Dive Ball hurts, yes, but Timer Ball is a worthy replacement. It's certainly on top of my list of decks to play post rotation.
 
Serperior said:
It'll be a threat for sure. Field Blower is a thing to counter Garb. Hex Maniac is out. Forest is out. Acerola makes 170 HP one-Prize attackers even more difficult to Knock Out. @F4H_Jay is right in the fact that losing Dive Ball and Rough Seas hurts. With that being said, you're gonna be able to build a different version of the deck and include newer cards that make this deck /disgusting/ like Guzma.
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Honestly Greninja decks don't suffer from the loss of Rough Seas, they benefit from it. For starters, I have never come across a competitive Greninja deck that consistently ran Rough Seas, Silent Lab was always a better substitute if you wanted to run a stadium. With that in mind, the reason Rough Seas going out of format is good, is because it countered Greninja's Water Shurikens pretty hard. Whenever you tried to spread the damage around with Giant Water Shuriken, it was always partially healed off ruining many OHKO's. Plus with all the great water decks out there that did use it, a lot of Greninja's matchups become a little bit easier.
 
Uhhh you remember Worlds last year man? Three Rough Seas. You always got the immediate effect of Healing 30 from those bulky BREAKs instead of praying your opponent didn't have a counter Stadium. Greninja was hardly prevalent this format with all of the Decidueye so to draw conclusions and say that Rough Seas was awful this year isn't saying much. I wouldn't go as far as to say that there were many "great water decks" to begin with, save Lapras at one point and...yeah. You're gonna have to list those off for me. Waterbox flipped and flopped and Volcanion is fueled on Fire so I don't really know what to tell you.
 
Serperior said:
Uhhh you remember Worlds last year man? Three Rough Seas. You always got the immediate effect of Healing 30 from those bulky BREAKs instead of praying your opponent didn't have a counter Stadium. Greninja was hardly prevalent this format with all of the Decidueye so to draw conclusions and say that Rough Seas was awful this year isn't saying much. I wouldn't go as far as to say that there were many "great water decks" to begin with, save Lapras at one point and...yeah. You're gonna have to list those off for me. Waterbox flipped and flopped and Volcanion is fueled on Fire so I don't really know what to tell you.
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First of all, you're right Rough Seas was played in Greninja BREAK decks last year, but that was also a totally different format. When the new format came most Greninja decks dropped it and for good reason. In the 2016-2017 Rotation we saw OHKO's becoming so much more common as new Pokemon's damage was raised to compensate for how much health GX Pokémon were given (Solgaleo and Metagross for example who both have 250). So suddenly Greninja BREAK's 170 HP wasn't so hard to knockout. Now feel free to enlighten me what healing 30 damage off a Pokémon that has 170 HP is gonna do, when practically every other meta deck in the format hits for 150+ when set up. Let's just say it definitely isn't gonna prevent a 2 hit knockout that's for sure. Also do me a favor and quote me where I said "Rough Seas was awful," because I believe you misinterpreted me.

To say "Greninja was hardly prevalent" is just false. Maybe that applied at the beginning of the season, but why don't you go look up the top decks from the North American International Championships. Greninja BREAK won the Senior division while coming runner up in the Junior division, and those are just the finalists, never mind all the other Greninja decks that could be found throughout the tournament.

I agree, maybe saying there were "many great water decks" was a bit of an exaggeration, but believe me they were there. You wanted me to list off the decks I was talking about, and those decks were Lapras, Alolan Ninetales, and Greninja BREAK of course. While yes it's true they had a weaker start at the beginning they quickly picked up the pace as the season came to a close. I already told you about how Greninja did at the North American Internationals but guess what, Alolan Ninetales also had a similar feat at the Liverpool Regionals a couple weeks ago. So don't be surprised to see a lot of very successful water decks just around the corner at the 2017 Worlds. At the end of the day water decks weren't some sort of juggernaut this season, but they made a respectable difference that's for sure.
 
Trainer Josh said:
To say "Greninja was hardly prevalent" is just false. Maybe that applied at the beginning of the season, but why don't you go look up the top decks from the North American International Championships. Greninja BREAK won the Senior division while coming runner up in the Junior division, and those are just the finalists, never mind all the other Greninja decks that could be found throughout the tournament.
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Juniors and Seniors aren't reliable sources. Juniors and Seniors are more likely to play what they want. Rainbow Road is not a particularly good deck, but it won.
 
Wait whoa Solgaleo hardly saw the light of day and topped with Lurantis once sometime and Metagross made one surprise appearance - these are hardly decks I can call top-tier from the last few months. No way. I'll concede that Healing 30 isn't as good as it used to be - Zoroark hits way too hard, Drampa smacks for 150, Garb can hit for ridiculous numbers, the list goes on. Healing 30, however, is better than having Silent Lab for...what? The Giratina that doesn't see play? The Lele? The Shaymin? Ok, the latter two are more understandable, but counter-Stadiums are seen in every meta deck - Team Magma's Secret Base, Brooklet Hill, etc. etc. You won't reap the benefits of Lab if they just bump it.

Latte covered your second point.

Lapras had the limelight for a blip of the middle of the season when it won that one Regionals. That was it. Greninja didn't win anything. Ninetales hasn't won anything, but I will agree that she is the current #1 for Water-based decks. This discussion is slowly transitioning into debating the seal Water has stamped on this season, so I won't go any further with much detail. Personally, Water/Ninetales was above-average at best, but not nearly as ground-breaking as Garbodor or Zoroark/Drampa. Heck, Water probably wasn't as meta-changing as Yveltal/Garb when that dominated the first half of the season lol
 
Serperior said:
Wait whoa Solgaleo hardly saw the light of day and topped with Lurantis once sometime and Metagross made one surprise appearance - these are hardly decks I can call top-tier from the last few months. No way. I'll concede that Healing 30 isn't as good as it used to be - Zoroark hits way too hard, Drampa smacks for 150, Garb can hit for ridiculous numbers, the list goes on. Healing 30, however, is better than having Silent Lab for...what? The Giratina that doesn't see play? The Lele? The Shaymin? Ok, the latter two are more understandable, but counter-Stadiums are seen in every meta deck - Team Magma's Secret Base, Brooklet Hill, etc. etc. You won't reap the benefits of Lab if they just bump it.

Latte covered your second point.

Lapras had the limelight for a blip of the middle of the season when it won that one Regionals. That was it. Greninja didn't win anything. Ninetales hasn't won anything, but I will agree that she is the current #1 for Water-based decks. This discussion is slowly transitioning into debating the seal Water has stamped on this season, so I won't go any further with much detail. Personally, Water/Ninetales was above-average at best, but not nearly as ground-breaking as Garbodor or Zoroark/Drampa. Heck, Water probably wasn't as meta-changing as Yveltal/Garb when that dominated the first half of the season lol
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Solgaleo and Metagross were merely examples to show how much health GX Pokémon were given. Once upon a time 250 HP was unheard of, in fact there was a deck made around that Pokémon for its health (Wailord EX). I wasn't trying to say they were top tier or anything.
 
Rough seas is super annoying in a mirror greninja match. :cool:

Im with Serperior on this one though, I think in todays meta, Rough seas ins't as useful just because everything hits so hard. I'd rather have a max potion because at most you you have 1 energy on a greninja, but even in that in the decks I run I don't run any way of taking damage off. With rescue stretcher, you just let it get knocked out then bring it back right away and start dealing damage. Although I do run a weird Greninja deck that uses rae candy and espeon ex. Lol :D
 
F4H_Jay said:
Rough seas is super annoying in a mirror greninja match. :cool:

Im with Serperior on this one though, I think in todays meta, Rough seas ins't as useful just because everything hits so hard. I'd rather have a max potion because at most you you have 1 energy on a greninja, but even in that in the decks I run I don't run any way of taking damage off. With rescue stretcher, you just let it get knocked out then bring it back right away and start dealing damage. Although I do run a weird Greninja deck that uses rae candy and espeon ex. Lol :D
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Fortunately I've never versed a mirror Greninja match who plays Rough Seas, but if I did the match would take hours, literally. Also just wanted to point out, you have made the point I have been trying to make all along. Rough Seas shouldn't and hasn't been in Greninja decks this season. I prefer cards like Max Potion, Rescue Stretcher, Super Rod, and don't forget about Splash Energy. Greninja is simply in a position where if one gets knocked out, it's not a big deal because hopefully you can bring it back.
 
Ooops sorry, totally mis read then, but yeah greninja has so many ways to get them back and start dealing damage once it gets going. Plus turn one lele into a wally can really get your odds up of winning even against decks that expose greninjas weakness. It'll still be a good deck, I don't know if quite top tier, but it will be a threat. Plus it destroys things like metagross due to shadow stitching, I think it will compete well against Gardevoir gx for the same reason plus Gardevoir relies pretty high on you having energy on the active to deal massive damage where Greninja only has one at all times. And well it goes well against volcanion and with forrest going away. Deciudeye wont be as much a threat. Just golispod gx and bulu will give it trouble if you can'gt get the shadow stitching going before vikavolt gets on the board.

Sorry for the lengthy post, I've been running greninja a lot lately and these are some advantages/disadvantages Ive come across.
 
F4H_Jay said:
Ooops sorry, totally mis read then, but yeah greninja has so many ways to get them back and start dealing damage once it gets going. Plus turn one lele into a wally can really get your odds up of winning even against decks that expose greninjas weakness. It'll still be a good deck, I don't know if quite top tier, but it will be a threat. Plus it destroys things like metagross due to shadow stitching, I think it will compete well against Gardevoir gx for the same reason plus Gardevoir relies pretty high on you having energy on the active to deal massive damage where Greninja only has one at all times. And well it goes well against volcanion and with forrest going away. Deciudeye wont be as much a threat. Just golispod gx and bulu will give it trouble if you can'gt get the shadow stitching going before vikavolt gets on the board.

Sorry for the lengthy post, I've been running greninja a lot lately and these are some advantages/disadvantages Ive come across.
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I couldn't agree more. Greninja is definitely here to stay as it only has two bad matchups, Golisopod-GX and Tapu Bulu of course. Unfortunately out of 3 games it's very probable you will lose, but if you get off to a fast start and they get off to a slow one you might just win if you're lucky. Also very happy to see Decidueye isn't going to be a threat any more thanks to Forest of Giant Plants being banned. That being said, I have to admit you do run a pretty weird Greninja deck, hope it's working out for you. To be honest running cards like Rare Candy, Tapu Lele, and Wally are all cards I have tested and removed from my deck list in order to streamline it. I don't have anything to say about Espeon EX lol.
 
I went 4-0 in a league challenge 2 weeks ago with it. Took 3 prizes in one turn with espeons miraculous shine attack against a bulu deck. :D
 
F4H_Jay said:
I went 4-0 in a league challenge 2 weeks ago with it. Took 3 prizes in one turn with espeons miraculous shine attack against a bulu deck. :D
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Can you explain to me how you take prizes with Miraculous Shine, I'm a little confused. Just looked up the card and it doesn't appear to be an attack you can take prizes with.

Edit: Nevermind lol, just looked it up and figured it out. Actually with Greninja's Giant Water Shurikens that can make for a great combo move, especially against decks that abuse Rare Candy!
 
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