Blog World Domination — An Analysis of State Championships and the New Legacy Format

Plasma Variants
You are forgetting that Thundurus sets up damage for Lugia to do more damage. And pluspower helps out lugia greatly, which made it awesome for speed plays. You also get recycle, junk arm, and eggs to get these cards back. Definitely more then a Meh deck.

Virizion-EX / Genesect-EX
Are you forgetting about G-booster?

Tropical Beach
Cleffa was around in a format without escape rope. Yes, people played reversal, but it was less common in decks. Escape rope is such an easy way around Cleffa that it will not be as big. I do think it will have some play in Legacy, but so should Tropical Beach in Emboar/Blastoise/Eels decks. Especially since you can't attack T1, Tropical Beach will be there for you then.

Pokemon Communication
This card will always be good. Exchange 1 for 1? In a format where you have 12-20 Pokémon per deck (Smeargle, Cleffa, Mewtwo, Darkrai, Shaymin UL, etc.), it will be seen much more than level ball. Ultra even is somewhat OK in the format with Junk Arm as you can't always be discarding 2 per turn (as most decks don't have the luxury of 1-2 eggs).
 
Elbow said:
Are you forgetting about G-booster?
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So, you will probably be discarding 4 energy off G-Booster per game plus an extra 1 or 2 energy off Ultra Ball/Junk Arm. You will probably have 2 energy per attacker, so you will probably need Super Rod. It very well could work, but energy will be a struggle.
Elbow said:
Tropical Beach
Cleffa was around in a format without escape rope. Yes, people played reversal, but it was less common in decks. Escape rope is such an easy way around Cleffa that it will not be as big. I do think it will have some play in Legacy, but so should Tropical Beach in Emboar/Blastoise/Eels decks. Especially since you can't attack T1, Tropical Beach will be there for you then.
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This is personal preference. Cleffa was good when Catcher didn't need a coin flip. My point here is that shuffle-drawing 6 can be better than straight up drawing to 7. That, and I don't own any Beaches...
Elbow said:
Pokemon Communication
This card will always be good. Exchange 1 for 1? In a format where you have 12-20 Pokémon per deck (Smeargle, Cleffa, Mewtwo, Darkrai, Shaymin UL, etc.), it will be seen much more than level ball. Ultra even is somewhat OK in the format with Junk Arm as you can't always be discarding 2 per turn (as most decks don't have the luxury of 1-2 eggs).
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If people want to fit eggs, I believe they will. Communication I just don't see at being as good when there are other, arguably better options.
Elbow said:
Plasma Variants
You are forgetting that Thundurus sets up damage for Lugia to do more damage. And pluspower helps out lugia greatly, which made it awesome for speed plays. You also get recycle, junk arm, and eggs to get these cards back. Definitely more then a Meh deck.
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Enhanced Hammer/Lost Remover would kill Lugia. You would probably have a DCE and Plasma on Lugia, so discarding one of them could make it miss a turn of attacking. Lightning with Terrakion would more or less kill this deck. Also. in 2013 and 2014 Worlds, no 1st or 2nd list played Lugia.
 
Latte1504 said:
So, you will probably be discarding 4 energy off G-Booster per game plus an extra 1 or 2 energy off Ultra Ball/Junk Arm. You will probably have 2 energy per attacker, so you will probably need Super Rod. It very well could work, but energy will be a struggle.
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You run Virizion, Energy Switch, Skyarrow, and possibly Colress Machine. As well as energy retrieval cards. The deck has no problem with energy.

Latte1504 said:
This is personal preference. Cleffa was good when Catcher didn't need a coin flip. My point here is that shuffle-drawing 6 can be better than straight up drawing to 7. That, and I don't own any Beaches...
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Cleffa was WORST without the coin flip. You are forgetting about Landorus and Darkrai hitting the bench for 30. No 2012 worlds decks ran cleffa for these reasons. Shuffling for 6 was good when nothing shot the bench or could switch the active without a flip.

Latte1504 said:
If people want to fit eggs, I believe they will. Communication I just don't see at being as good when there are other, arguably better options.
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With a format from HGSS-LT, there will be no room for that in many lists. Some lists its crucial, but most in the Legacy format most lists want to fit in 65 cards already. Eggs are such a bad start and are susceptible to the turn 1 LaserBank lose. And what is arguably is better? I think ultra ball is just as good, basically on the same level. Ultra requires a 2 discard and communication requires just 1 other Pokemon in your hand.

Latte1504 said:
Enhanced Hammer/Lost Remover would kill Lugia. You would probably have a DCE and Plasma on Lugia, so discarding one of them could make it miss a turn of attacking. Lightning with Terrakion would more or less kill this deck. Also. in 2013 and 2014 Worlds, no 1st or 2nd list played Lugia.
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First, in Legacy Lost Remover is so much better than Hammer.
Second, you are partially right, Lost Remover is a problem for Lugia. But at the same time, the deck can still win. Most decks I've seen don't run more then 1/2 Lost Remover and can get back more with Junk Arm/Dowsing. At most they are using 4-5 in one game, which is a lot tbh. The reason why it's not a problem is that your Plasma Energy will always be in the discard. From Plasma Gale, you discard an energy, and you will have to discard the plasma one so you don't get screwed and get it back either from Thundurus or more likely from Shadow Triad. All you need is 2 KOes on EXs and you win, so sure, they might get rid of some energy, but it's unlikely that they get rid of 8 energy in one game.
 
Given how I only have been playing since Phantom Forces, this format feels pretty fresh to me! This article shows many good options, but there are other cards to consider as well that I've seen:

-Celebi Prime: Similar to Reshiram ROS, only with grass energy, and free retreat. Lot's of usage with Genesect-EX, although really expensive to get.
-The Klinklangs: One can switch Metal Energy around, much like Aromatisse does with Fairy Energy, and the other one (Plasma) simply blocks all EX attacks from steel types. Great potential in both of them.
-Altaria/Garchomp: This is what I've been running so far, given that I don't have that many old cards right now. I quite like how the Garchump brings on the pressure while discarding Special Energies, and Gabite's Dragon Call ability is super powerful. Might not be the most metagame-powerful, But it is serving me well.

After playing standard matches for so long, with all the monolithic strategies like Night March, Trevenant Break, Etc., this format is so much more fun to play in... Well, for the time being, until all the best strategies are so well tested that the format becomes stale due to no new cards appearing in forever. >_>
 
I refuse on principle to play a NM deck on PTCG. I have NEVER been a game quitter but now I do.
What is the point of trying to participate in this game when a NM deck can discard over half the deck in 1 turn and attack for 200?

I hate the NM
 
TrainerMa'am said:
What is the point of trying to participate in this game when a NM deck can discard over half the deck in 1 turn and attack for 200?

I hate the NM
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That is the point I was trying to make.
Lanstar said:
-Altaria/Garchomp: This is what I've been running so far, given that I don't have that many old cards right now. I quite like how the Garchump brings on the pressure while discarding Special Energies, and Gabite's Dragon Call ability is super powerful. Might not be the most metagame-powerful, But it is serving me well.
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This is definitely solid, zi just fear how good it will be in the long run. It never saw success in its time.
 
TrainerMa'am said:
I refuse on principle to play a NM deck on PTCG. I have NEVER been a game quitter but now I do.
What is the point of trying to participate in this game when a NM deck can discard over half the deck in 1 turn and attack for 200?

I hate the NM
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I find it hilarious that people are hating on a deck. You talk about every deck that can counter NM but you explain how to counter that deck. It all sounds very simple with the way you describe it, but yet somehow NM isn't winning everything. So what should we do if a deck is played a lot? "ban Pumpkaboo, Joltik, and Lampent". That is probably the worst idea I've ever heard. They already banned Lysandre's Trump card so you don't decemate this deck, now you just want to ban cards to just get rid of the deck all together? Why not ban the staple cards of every deck? Ban Hoopa EX, it's not fair to be able to get out 3 EX's from one card. Ban Shaymin EX, it's not fair to be able to draw until you have 6 cards in your hand from 1 card. Ban Maxie's and Archie, it's not fair to be able to put a stage 2 from the discard pile onto your bench. It makes no sense. How about instead of trying to get a deck banned because a lot of people are playing it, you find a way to beat it? Just because you see the deck winning and placing in the top 8 of a lot of state tournaments doesn't mean the deck is OP, it just means a lot of people play it. A lot of people play it because it's cheap and very easy to play. If it was OP then everyone would play it. Right now there's just a lot of people that play it, thats why you see it a lot in the top 8. If a meta for an area is that deck, you're going to see a lot in the top 8 because the probability of that deck reaching top 8 is greater. For example, if 50% of a tournament is NM and the rest is spread out (8% this deck, 12% this one, 5% this one), you're probably going to see 4 out of the 8 in the top 8 as NM players.

I have a NM deck and it's probably one of the most consistant, easiest and cheapest decks I've ever made/played. I'm not playing it for states because I'm letting my nephew play it because I think he'll do well with it. It's not that I didnt want to play NM, I just didn't want a bunch of mirror matches because that to me is boring. I'm all for banning cards that completely destroy a deck (Lysandre's Trump Card), but I'm totally against banning staple cards that make a deck what it is.

On a final note, I can't wait for the new XY10 Mew to come out, because that is going to make NM that much more played. MUHAHAHAHAHA
 
PokeDad5 said:
I find it hilarious that people are hating on a deck. You talk about every deck that can counter NM but you explain how to counter that deck. It all sounds very simple with the way you describe it, but yet somehow NM isn't winning everything. So what should we do if a deck is played a lot? "ban Pumpkaboo, Joltik, and Lampent". That is probably the worst idea I've ever heard. They already banned Lysandre's Trump card so you don't decemate this deck, now you just want to ban cards to just get rid of the deck all together? Why not ban the staple cards of every deck? Ban Hoopa EX, it's not fair to be able to get out 3 EX's from one card. Ban Shaymin EX, it's not fair to be able to draw until you have 6 cards in your hand from 1 card. Ban Maxie's and Archie, it's not fair to be able to put a stage 2 from the discard pile onto your bench. It makes no sense. How about instead of trying to get a deck banned because a lot of people are playing it, you find a way to beat it? Just because you see the deck winning and placing in the top 8 of a lot of state tournaments doesn't mean the deck is OP, it just means a lot of people play it. A lot of people play it because it's cheap and very easy to play. If it was OP then everyone would play it. Right now there's just a lot of people that play it, thats why you see it a lot in the top 8. If a meta for an area is that deck, you're going to see a lot in the top 8 because the probability of that deck reaching top 8 is greater. For example, if 50% of a tournament is NM and the rest is spread out (8% this deck, 12% this one, 5% this one), you're probably going to see 4 out of the 8 in the top 8 as NM players.

I have a NM deck and it's probably one of the most consistant, easiest and cheapest decks I've ever made/played. I'm not playing it for states because I'm letting my nephew play it because I think he'll do well with it. It's not that I didnt want to play NM, I just didn't want a bunch of mirror matches because that to me is boring. I'm all for banning cards that completely destroy a deck (Lysandre's Trump Card), but I'm totally against banning staple cards that make a deck what it is.

On a final note, I can't wait for the new XY10 Mew to come out, because that is going to make NM that much more played. MUHAHAHAHAHA
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The reason people hate Night March is because it's toxic to the entire format. The fact that it's a single deck all other decks are stacked up against makes it terrible for the game. No single deck should have that much sway over the game. And they keep making it so much more powerful to boot by adding things like Puzzle of Time, Mew, and Fighting Fury Belt. It's like they're trying to negate any counters you might have to it. Special energy denial? Oh, here's a way to get it out of the discard pile, and if you can't do that, here's another basic you can use to attack with. Oh? Bats and baby Yveltal giving you problems? Have a little bit more HP. It's ridiculous.
 
You must not have opened up a Fight Night Yveltal yet... Bye Bye 4 prize cards in 2 turns. Jirachi?! Oh no, you're DCE is gone and you can't do damage to me next turn from attacks...

I still am finding it hard that a deck that can be easily played and cheaply made is so bad for this game. If I was just getting into Pokemon and you told me I could made a good deck for $300 or a competitive deck for $100, I'd go for the $100 deck.

You wanna beat night march, mill it. Wont take long and with the new mew and new supporter, you'll be milling 4-8 cards a turn. So they KO a mew, that's only one prize card. Meanwhile they're having to play judge just to stay alive... Hope they dont have to play their DCE early to risk judging it away.
 
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PokeDad5 said:
I find it hilarious that people are hating on a deck. You talk about every deck that can counter NM but you explain how to counter that deck. It all sounds very simple with the way you describe it, but yet somehow NM isn't winning everything. So what should we do if a deck is played a lot? "ban Pumpkaboo, Joltik, and Lampent". That is probably the worst idea I've ever heard. They already banned Lysandre's Trump card so you don't decemate this deck, now you just want to ban cards to just get rid of the deck all together? Why not ban the staple cards of every deck? Ban Hoopa EX, it's not fair to be able to get out 3 EX's from one card. Ban Shaymin EX, it's not fair to be able to draw until you have 6 cards in your hand from 1 card. Ban Maxie's and Archie, it's not fair to be able to put a stage 2 from the discard pile onto your bench. It makes no sense. How about instead of trying to get a deck banned because a lot of people are playing it, you find a way to beat it? Just because you see the deck winning and placing in the top 8 of a lot of state tournaments doesn't mean the deck is OP, it just means a lot of people play it. A lot of people play it because it's cheap and very easy to play. If it was OP then everyone would play it. Right now there's just a lot of people that play it, thats why you see it a lot in the top 8. If a meta for an area is that deck, you're going to see a lot in the top 8 because the probability of that deck reaching top 8 is greater. For example, if 50% of a tournament is NM and the rest is spread out (8% this deck, 12% this one, 5% this one), you're probably going to see 4 out of the 8 in the top 8 as NM players.
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Night March is a deck, not a staple, is it not? The only other real way to beat it is item lock or using non-ability non-EXs. That is why the format is Toad vs VespiPlume vs Trees vs Night March. This better than the compressor ban most other people want...
How are you killing 8 per turn?!??!? Jirachi:wait, escape role/Lysandre/catcher? That enough?
 
Not killing 8 per turn, milling 8 per turn. With the new Mew you can use any pokemon's attack on your bench for the cost of the energy of the attack. Since Mew is Psychic, with Dimension Valley and a rainbow energy attached you can use Durants attack to mill 4 cards off their deck for the attack. Additionally you can play 1-4 trick shovels in a turn, also Delinquent or the new Team Rockets Handiwork allows you to flip 2 coins, for each heads you mill 2 more cards. So in 1 turn you can mill up to 12 cards! Hello Puzzle of Time for 2 more trick shovels back, a handy dandy VS Seeker for Team Rockets Handiwork and you again mill for 10 more cards. 22 cards milled in 2 turns and at most they KO 2 mew's for 2 prize cards... Seems like a pretty good counter to me
 
PokeDad5 said:
Not killing 8 per turn, milling 8 per turn. With the new Mew you can use any pokemon's attack on your bench for the cost of the energy of the attack. Since Mew is Psychic, with Dimension Valley and a rainbow energy attached you can use Durants attack to mill 4 cards off their deck for the attack. Additionally you can play 1-4 trick shovels in a turn, also Delinquent or the new Team Rockets Handiwork allows you to flip 2 coins, for each heads you mill 2 more cards. So in 1 turn you can mill up to 12 cards! Hello Puzzle of Time for 2 more trick shovels back, a handy dandy VS Seeker for Team Rockets Handiwork and you again mill for 10 more cards. 22 cards milled in 2 turns and at most they KO 2 mew's for 2 prize cards... Seems like a pretty good counter to me
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In a lot of cases, milling Night March is good. It gets their Night Marches in the discard as well as supporters and PoT cards. Also, what about Trees? Toad? What will you do on T1 or T2 if you wife something? What if you flip bad? What then?
 
PokeDad5 said:
You must not have opened up a Fight Night Yveltal yet... Bye Bye 4 prize cards in 2 turns. Jirachi?! Oh no, you're DCE is gone and you can't do damage to me next turn from attacks...

I still am finding it hard that a deck that can be easily played and cheaply made is so bad for this game. If I was just getting into Pokemon and you told me I could made a good deck for $300 or a competitive deck for $100, I'd go for the $100 deck.

You wanna beat night march, mill it. Wont take long and with the new mew and new supporter, you'll be milling 4-8 cards a turn. So they KO a mew, that's only one prize card. Meanwhile they're having to play judge just to stay alive... Hope they dont have to play their DCE early to risk judging it away.
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It's bad for the game because there isn't a game to be played against this deck.

You can't get past round two... And if you are playing a skilled player with a good draw you are out after your first turn. You find it "hilarious" that I am upset?

Well, why should I waste my time and effort playing against this deck? There is no room for strategy against this deck. If my draw isn't good I don't have 3 turns to turn the game around. Not everyone plays the game just to win. I enjoy a good match up - one that requires I outwit and outplay my opponent and his draw.

The NM is too consistent and good to play. NM tosses everything away in a turn and then KOs with a single DCE and 60HP! It doestnt even give other decks a chance to play. The NM is the best deck - I get it - we all get it. Give it the prize!

But I won't waste my time playing it. I have spent hours of time and money developing a deck I love to play. I don't play my deck because it's a winning tier 1 deck - it's not. I don't play my deck to win - most often I don't. I play my deck to play with with the Pokemon I love and I play it to play the game.

The NM stops me dead! It doesn't just beat me!!! It stops me playing - full stop! There is no game. And that upsets me!
 
Night March has won 17 of the 33 state championships so far. So apparently it's beatable. Like I said. If 50% of people are playing Night March, there's a 4/8 chance or 50% chance it will win the finals.
 
What do other TCG's scenes look like, as a contrast to NM? Does MtG or YuGiOh maintain a large selection of viable decks in tier 1?

Or, for that matter, has PTCG suffered from a runaway experiment before, such that one build rose to the top of the meta?
 
Frosstoise said:
What do other TCG's scenes look like, as a contrast to NM? Does MtG or YuGiOh maintain a large selection of viable decks in tier 1?

Or, for that matter, has PTCG suffered from a runaway experiment before, such that one build rose to the top of the meta?
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I don't know about other TCG's/CCG's... PTCG has had SP and Garde/Gallade to my knowledge. SP had many different variants though.
 
Pokemon maintains a large selection of viable decks. There's viable decks of almost every type that can be played. The problem is that the consistantcy of Night March is so good right now that a lot of people play it. When a lot of people switch to a certain type of deck your list of viable tier 1 decks starts to become smaller, not because there arent good tier 1 decks out there, but because people are just trying to counter a certain type of deck because they know they're going to play against it. If you want to ban/slow down any deck, especially night march, ban Shaymin EX. It's a fair ban because everyone uses it.
 
PokeDad5 said:
It's a fair ban because everyone uses it.
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Everyone uses Compressor?

Also, Shaymin makes the game much more consistent. Think about what our draw would be like without it. 4 Sycamore, 4 Shauna, and 4 Birch would probably be played in every deck. Doesn't sound like fun to me...
 
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