Discussion Most Broken Pokemon Cards

[Scoop]

I don't consider any cards broken. Mainly because its more in the player's way of playing a card. Ive been trump carded first turn back when it was legal. I had someone use toad for the non-useful attack. Shaymins with a full hand, etc. Now, this is more on the PTCGO but it still stands that its all in the hands of the player. If i had to say there was an overpowered card played correctly, it had to have been LTC, for reasons mostly stated above. I never minded it, but I still found the reasons TPCi to ban it reasonable. Note that i havent played for a long time between the time i was 7 years old and now, so I couldnt discuss any older cards between like, EX something or other and Black and white.

 

[neophenx]

Wait... Shaymin's draw power is broken?
You must not have played when there was an Uxie card with the same power, but for a hand of 7 cards. At the same time, there was a deck that gained some popularity using Crobat G (a basic who dropped damage just by being played), Shuppet (1 energy, 30 damage, pick up to your hand with all attached cards) that combos with Pluspower (at the time, it attached to the Pokemon) and Expert Belt (effectively a Muscle Band), and this was when 130 was considered high HP.

Sure, the game is different from what it was, but that's how competitive formats work. If you keep measuring its "brokenness" in terms of older formats, you'll never learn to adapt and learn how to play in the modern game. Shaymin's not a broken card, it's just a very useful card that fits in a LOT of decks, just like N, Sycamore, Lysandre, VS Seeker, etc. None of them are broken, they're just almost universally helpful. In fact, compared to my old days of playing (when Gardevoir/Gallade, Great Encounters) ruled nearly the whole format, we have a very diverse metagame. Are some matchups hard? Yes. It's always been that way. But we have strong showings of Rayquaza, Seismitoad, Groudon, heck even a Blastoise/Keldeo that just won worlds!

And with Ancient Origins, Stage 1 Pokemon have all sorts of flexibility now. Vespiquen replaces Turbo Flareon with the added bonus of being able to hit for 4 different weaknesses. Heck, I'm testing out a Noivern deck and an Excadrill deck that actually hold up pretty well, even against new monstrosities like Machamp EX. Oh, and that broken Shaymin? Excadrill+Muscle Band+benched Jolteon = OHKO. Then a new Pokemon comes up to take a second hit due to Ancient Trait Omega Barrage.

 

[Otaku]

@neophenx

Hi. I'm a long time player and I just wanted you to know that most of what you wrote in your previous post seems to demonstrates a severe lack of comprehension.

I have to be very careful as I state this (because this is about the only circumstance where it matters as opposed to being a lame attempt at bragging), but some of us have been around for most of the game's life span, at least outside of Japan. You might want to look up what the-powers-that-be claim Pokémon is supposed to be about; this is a two-player TCG. Shaymin-EX (ROS) is a card that helps it to fake being a one-player game. If you need a short definition for what is "broken" that puts things in simple, easy to comprehend terms: it isn't exhaustive but it works if you're not worried about that.

I am familiar with the Uxie of which you speak, though it was released and used during a time when I often couldn't even keep track of what was happening in the game (real life got in the way), let alone play. Still I got to see and use it some and it was so obviously overpowered. You actually helped explain how; you just had to use several other powerful, easy to run, easy to pay (for costs), easy to use (to your benefit) cards. There is a reason we are familiar with it; I don't know if it was a staple (again, this is one of the times where I don't have the first hand knowledge), but if it wasn't my next step is to instantly look for something as-or-more-powerful to explain "why".

To people reading this in general: Remember not to define things in "relative" terms only.

Just because something isn't as fast paced as its equivalent was during a past format does not prove that the current pacing isn't too fast right now.

Just because something stronger existed in the past doesn't mean its modern equivalent isn't too powerful right now.

Look at game mechanics. Look at "how" people are enjoying the game. Consider what the logical game design is for a TCG designed to meet the demand for a specifically "Pokémon" TCG.

• Most Evolutions aren't worth playing and the ones that are either have to use "short cuts" and/or still can't hang with the equivalent Basic Pokémon... maybe because the competitive metagame is simply too fast to allow a mechanic designed to take multiple turns to function properly?
• We lost first turn attacks perhaps because the pacing is off and we can score OHKOs too quickly?
• Are people enjoying the game because they enjoy actually playing it or because they enjoy winning? Even further, do they enjoy winning because they had a nice, in depth game against their opponent... or is it largely self-gratification, enjoying winning for winning sake and doing so while your opponent sometimes even literally has to just sit there and wait for you to win (and more often effectively has to just sit and wait for you to win).
• Over 700 Pokémon. Not all of them can or should try to fill the same roles, but at the very least the non-joke ones that are the final Stage of an Evolution line should stand on more-or-less equal footing with each other when they are after the same role e.g. big, Fire-Type attacker, set-up Pokémon, etc. While a perfect success where everything is useful is so improbable it may as well be impossible, aiming lower means performing lower... and more of us disappointed that "our" Pokémon can barely be used for "fun" decks. =/

Addendum: Had to edit a few things that didn't read right, also tried to tone it down a bit. I want discussion, not just to be harping at people for having a different idea about the state of the game than myself.

 

[CYL]

Wait... Shaymin's draw power is broken?
You must not have played when there was an Uxie card with the same power, but for a hand of 7 cards. At the same time, there was a deck that gained some popularity using Crobat G (a basic who dropped damage just by being played), Shuppet (1 energy, 30 damage, pick up to your hand with all attached cards) that combos with Pluspower (at the time, it attached to the Pokemon) and Expert Belt (effectively a Muscle Band), and this was when 130 was considered high HP.

Sure, the game is different from what it was, but that's how competitive formats work. If you keep measuring its "brokenness" in terms of older formats, you'll never learn to adapt and learn how to play in the modern game. Shaymin's not a broken card, it's just a very useful card that fits in a LOT of decks, just like N, Sycamore, Lysandre, VS Seeker, etc. None of them are broken, they're just almost universally helpful. In fact, compared to my old days of playing (when Gardevoir/Gallade, Great Encounters) ruled nearly the whole format, we have a very diverse metagame. Are some matchups hard? Yes. It's always been that way. But we have strong showings of Rayquaza, Seismitoad, Groudon, heck even a Blastoise/Keldeo that just won worlds!

And with Ancient Origins, Stage 1 Pokemon have all sorts of flexibility now. Vespiquen replaces Turbo Flareon with the added bonus of being able to hit for 4 different weaknesses. Heck, I'm testing out a Noivern deck and an Excadrill deck that actually hold up pretty well, even against new monstrosities like Machamp EX. Oh, and that broken Shaymin? Excadrill+Muscle Band+benched Jolteon = OHKO. Then a new Pokemon comes up to take a second hit due to Ancient Trait Omega Barrage.

You're right, I didn't play then. Without TCGO, there's no one to play with in Hong Kong.
I disagree. Even back then, you wouldn't finish your deck and the game in two turns. I'd define that as broken.

 

[Otaku]

It occurs to me I should take some time to address some other factors, at least one applicable to what makes Shaymin-EX (ROS), Uxie (LA) and many other forms of Pokémon non-attack based draw/search problematic. Please note however that I am not advocating such effects never be a result of things like Pokémon Abilities, just explaining what can and has gone "wrong" in the past.

To start with, while sounds inane, both the card pool and players' decisions are a part of what "breaks" a card. The latter isn't quite as simple as it sounds. It is not "Well everyone is using it in a broken way." but rather "Is there something being played disproportionately to other cards, especially apart from its actual usefulness?" Some Pokémon are more popular than others and people more naturally gravitate towards it... which can be a problem if other cards are carefully balanced with it being used appropriate to its power (and not popularity).

A tiny taste of this comes from how often when a set is still relatively "new" we'll have people trying to use the flashiest cards even when they aren't the best choices... and that can be really bad for the players who actually are otherwise reading the metagame properly. This can also happen when Deck A is so dominant that even if it would be a more balanced Deck A > Deck B > Deck C > Deck A kind of metagame, because Deck B features a really popular Pokémon, it is played so heavily that Deck A is better than it ought to be while Deck C is seen as "worse" due to its match-up against Deck B. Again, this assume all other things are equal; if Deck B really is better than the other decks with all factors considered, it isn't what I am talking about.

Second we currently have a Supporter-centric format. Demonstrating "be careful what you wish for", guys like me have been stating clearly that we want more non-Supporter based draw options because we don't like how critical Supporters are to set-up/maintenance in general and how certain ones are so critical to a deck overall, often driving the pace of the format. Take Professor Juniper and Professor Sycamore; they drive the pace so that "aggressive" play goes from being one extreme to the norm: of course you're going to try to structure your deck so you can play your hand down as low as possible before refilling it and just ripping through your deck.

The added specification for my "wish" should have been "...that take into account what balance there is between the other cards and the format being Supporter-centric draw power". Cards that were once seen as obviously "bad" are now part of proven lock strategies that can leave one player sitting there doing nothing turn after turn while the other plays by his- or herself. Now throw in - as I keep bringing it up - the many potent Items in the format that can be played so easily on your turn. Shaymin-EX may have been a fine addition to some formats, but we've got a lot of spammable cards which it enables.

 

[Yo-yos]

Rakkis157 I'm not saying that you need to throw your emotions away to win big in fact why should you? I'm just saying that if you think of a card as broken but not call the combo broken your clearly not understanding the valid idea of a combo wombo (thanks jwittz). It's about looking at what exists and seeing a valid strategy that exists beyond the one you think of as broken. And if by definition you say that seismetoad is not broken but htl is but there is so many cards that counter the play of that 1 card, pokemon, stadiums, tools, supporters, etc. And again no single card is broken only the strategy and combination formed by those cards. I swear later in the format if you think any one card should be banned out of shiftry but not realize that wobbuffet is a thing same thing can be said about eggs/vileplume.

Understanding what is currently winning and the cards that counter it allow you to create a very valid counter to eliminate the play of that deck is what makes a player competitive enough to earn there cp to worlds, as in what it takes to be a competitive player. Therefore nothing is broken if there is the means to counter it already (a statement powerful enough to dismiss this entire thread).

 

[Rakkis157]

I'm just saying that if you think of a card as broken but not call the combo broken your clearly not understanding the valid idea of a combo wombo (thanks jwittz). It's about looking at what exists and seeing a valid strategy that exists beyond the one you think of as broken. And if by definition you say that seismetoad is not broken but htl is but there is so many cards that counter the play of that 1 card, pokemon, stadiums, tools, supporters, etc. And again no single card is broken only the strategy and combination formed by those cards. I swear later in the format if you think any one card should be banned out of shiftry but not realize that wobbuffet is a thing same thing can be said about eggs/vileplume.

Understanding what is currently winning and the cards that counter it allow you to create a very valid counter to eliminate the play of that deck is what makes a player competitive enough to earn there cp to worlds, as in what it takes to be a competitive player. Therefore nothing is broken if there is the means to counter it already (a statement powerful enough to dismiss this entire thread).

I feel that I need to do a little clarification, because I feel that we are talking about vastly different things due to our different usage of the word broken. For me, broken is not the same as overpowered. Overpowered means that a card or strategy is so strong that it cannot be countered, or if it can, is so difficult to do that most of the time is not worth the effort. Broken is when a card 'cracks' the overall state of the game, by making things too fast, too slow, too volatile, too strategy-less etc. to the point where it makes the game itself less stable. I class DCE as a broken card because it one of the causes for the pacing of the game not allowing anything that requires time to function (except Primal Groudon, but only because of Omega Barrier), however, DCE is not an overpowered card due to its many many counters and drawbacks in Aegislash EX, Enhanced Hammers, Xerosic, Giratina-EX (if it ever takes off) etc. Due to how it speeds up pacing, it breaks the game by disallowing a mechanic that has been at the core of the game for quite some time, evolution, from functioning as it should, making it so that stage 2s (when played as stage 2s) aren't viable. Laser, Muscle Band and Strong Energy does the same, allowing us to output lots of damage too early into the game, but they have their counters so they too aren't overpowered.

Besides Stage 2s, we have seen a sharp decline in set up attacks being used. There's M Mane, M Sceptile, Virizion EX, and we may see Volcarona AOR seeing play as well, but besides there we just don't have much that works. We are at the point where set up attacks are simply pushed out (note how those that work also have the ability to set up for 2HKOs) due to how important every attack you make is with the pacing of the game in its current state.

There aren't any overpowered cards in this format. Not M Rayquaza, not Toad, not Night March, not Primal Groudon, not anything a lot of people would like to suggest. There are really strong strategies, but none of those warrant banning or early rotations or anything along those lines because really, there isn't anything dominating the metagame (this even happens to be one of those years where a rogue came up top). It's a really fun format, one of the better ones I've seen so far. As for Shiftry... I guess you can say I have something to say about it, but is not limited to just Shiftry but rather every donk strategy from the past to the formats to come. I'd like for the No Pokemon in Play win condition to be applied at the end of a player's turn rather than immediately like how the Deck Out win condition only applies at the start of your turn. Would give some hope to Unlimited. That's a different story, though.

There are however a number of broken cards in this format. They aren't too many that they 'shatter' the game (see Base Set era and the end of the DP era) and I'd like to keep it that way. It is however approaching that, which is my primary concern.

After playing this for more than a decade, I'm quite familiar with the routine of analyzing strategies and figuring out how to counter them. It's my favorite part of the game. That and building decks that can, for lack of a better term, surprise people. Love combos too, just so long as they aren't too easy to pull off (half the fun of a combo is in the challenge, no?) and depending on how difficult it is to get the combo going, combos deserve to be strong. Otherwise, no one would play them.

Rakkis157 I'm not saying that you need to throw your emotions away to win big in fact why should you?

I have a feeling I'm mistaken about the meaning of the words I just used (language barriers ). If I'm wrong, correct me, but doesn't "putting aside your feelings" means doing whatever you must to succeed?

Edit:

Also to those saying that DCE was here since forever, I was sort of curious about it, so a couple of days ago I went ahead and looked up the actual DCE reprints in Japan since Base Set 2 was English only.

1st DCE print: October 20 1996
2nd DCE print: October 9 2009

That's 13 whole years. The game hasn't even been around for 20.

 

[CYL]

I feel that I need to do a little clarification, because I feel that we are talking about vastly different things due to our different usage of the word broken. For me, broken is not the same as overpowered. Overpowered means that a card or strategy is so strong that it cannot be countered, or if it can, is so difficult to do that most of the time is not worth the effort. Broken is when a card 'cracks' the overall state of the game, by making things too fast, too slow, too volatile, too strategy-less etc. to the point where it makes the game itself less stable. I class DCE as a broken card because it one of the causes for the pacing of the game not allowing anything that requires time to function (except Primal Groudon, but only because of Omega Barrier), however, DCE is not an overpowered card due to its many many counters and drawbacks in Aegislash EX, Enhanced Hammers, Xerosic, Giratina-EX (if it ever takes off) etc. Due to how it speeds up pacing, it breaks the game by disallowing a mechanic that has been at the core of the game for quite some time, evolution, from functioning as it should, making it so that stage 2s (when played as stage 2s) aren't viable. Laser, Muscle Band and Strong Energy does the same, allowing us to output lots of damage too early into the game, but they have their counters so they too aren't overpowered.

Besides Stage 2s, we have seen a sharp decline in set up attacks being used. There's M Mane, M Sceptile, Virizion EX, and we may see Volcarona AOR seeing play as well, but besides there we just don't have much that works. We are at the point where set up attacks are simply pushed out (note how those that work also have the ability to set up for 2HKOs) due to how important every attack you make is with the pacing of the game in its current state.

There aren't any overpowered cards in this format. Not M Rayquaza, not Toad, not Night March, not Primal Groudon, not anything a lot of people would like to suggest. There are really strong strategies, but none of those warrant banning or early rotations or anything along those lines because really, there isn't anything dominating the metagame (this even happens to be one of those years where a rogue came up top). It's a really fun format, one of the better ones I've seen so far. As for Shiftry... I guess you can say I have something to say about it, but is not limited to just Shiftry but rather every donk strategy from the past to the formats to come. I'd like for the No Pokemon in Play win condition to be applied at the end of a player's turn rather than immediately like how the Deck Out win condition only applies at the start of your turn. Would give some hope to Unlimited. That's a different story, though.

There are however a number of broken cards in this format. They aren't too many that they 'shatter' the game (see Base Set era and the end of the DP era) and I'd like to keep it that way. It is however approaching that, which is my primary concern.

After playing this for more than a decade, I'm quite familiar with the routine of analyzing strategies and figuring out how to counter them. It's my favorite part of the game. That and building decks that can, for lack of a better term, surprise people. Love combos too, just so long as they aren't too easy to pull off (half the fun of a combo is in the challenge, no?) and depending on how difficult it is to get the combo going, combos deserve to be strong. Otherwise, no one would play them.



I have a feeling I'm mistaken about the meaning of the words I just used (language barriers ). If I'm wrong, correct me, but doesn't "putting aside your feelings" means doing whatever you must to succeed?

Edit:

Also to those saying that DCE was here since forever, I was sort of curious about it, so a couple of days ago I went ahead and looked up the actual DCE reprints in Japan since Base Set 2 was English only.

1st DCE print: October 20 1996
2nd DCE print: October 9 2009

That's 13 whole years. The game hasn't even been around for 20.

I don't think the DCE is the one to blame for breaking the format. Many other cards come to mind when it comes to being broken. Cards who have no drawback compared to DCE.
I think the lack of fun in this format is due to a combination of many factors. No one card (aside from LTC) can be determined to be broken or overpowered on its own. That's why we play 60-card decks.
One problem today is that we can technically run a card an unlimited number of times. We have the 4 of each card rule so that we can use a card 4 times. Nowadays, supporters can be used almost infinitely - I've tried a number of games where you can't even set up because the opponent Flare Grunt / Xerosic's you, VS Seeker, Flare Grunt again, Pal Pad, Trainer's Mail, another Flare Grunt ... you get to a point where you don't even bother to attach energy.
This goes hand in hand with the speed of the game. As I pointed out before, Uxie LA isn't broken, whereas Shaymin-EX is a component in a broken format. Shaymin-EX isn't broken by itself, the format is; with the number of similar cards we have at our disposal, there's no fun left in the game anymore. Since I play 'normal' decks (not win-orientated ones), which draws one card every turn, I find myself sitting in 2-turn, 10-minute games - of which I play 1 minute of. Uxie meant that you could draw to 7 cards 4 times a game. Today, with Shaymin? Granted, it's 6 cards, but there's AZ and Scoop Up Cyclone, which means it can burn through half the deck in the first turn. Add in Unown, Acro Bike, and the like, and the game's just too fast and too straightforward to be fun.
Why do you need strategy anymore, when you can just discard the entire deck and knock out your opponent in two turns?

 

[tototavros]

I don't think the DCE is the one to blame for breaking the format. Many other cards come to mind when it comes to being broken. Cards who have no drawback compared to DCE.
I think the lack of fun in this format is due to a combination of many factors. No one card (aside from LTC) can be determined to be broken or overpowered on its own. That's why we play 60-card decks.
One problem today is that we can technically run a card an unlimited number of times. We have the 4 of each card rule so that we can use a card 4 times. Nowadays, supporters can be used almost infinitely - I've tried a number of games where you can't even set up because the opponent Flare Grunt / Xerosic's you, VS Seeker, Flare Grunt again, Pal Pad, Trainer's Mail, another Flare Grunt ... you get to a point where you don't even bother to attach energy.
This goes hand in hand with the speed of the game. As I pointed out before, Uxie LA isn't broken, whereas Shaymin-EX is a component in a broken format. Shaymin-EX isn't broken by itself, the format is; with the number of similar cards we have at our disposal, there's no fun left in the game anymore. Since I play 'normal' decks (not win-orientated ones), which draws one card every turn, I find myself sitting in 2-turn, 10-minute games - of which I play 1 minute of. Uxie meant that you could draw to 7 cards 4 times a game. Today, with Shaymin? Granted, it's 6 cards, but there's AZ and Scoop Up Cyclone, which means it can burn through half the deck in the first turn. Add in Unown, Acro Bike, and the like, and the game's just too fast and too straightforward to be fun.
Why do you need strategy anymore, when you can just discard the entire deck and knock out your opponent in two turns?

You mischaracterize Uxie LA as being part of a slow format...while it was sometimes used for your purpose, I also use it frequently, to go Uxie, draw until 7, SSU tails, SSU heads, pick up Uxie, draw until 7, Unown R, Retire, Unown R, Retire, PokedexHandy, PokedexHandy, Night Maintenance 4 Unown R, Quick Ball, Unown R...ad absurdum.

If you really want to watch a game like that, watch any games where Uxie donk is being played.

 

[CYL]

You mischaracterize Uxie LA as being part of a slow format...while it was sometimes used for your purpose, I also use it frequently, to go Uxie, draw until 7, SSU tails, SSU heads, pick up Uxie, draw until 7, Unown R, Retire, Unown R, Retire, PokedexHandy, PokedexHandy, Night Maintenance 4 Unown R, Quick Ball, Unown R...ad absurdum.

If you really want to watch a game like that, watch any games where Uxie donk is being played.

It wasn't a slow format. I never mentioned slow format. I'm saying the current format is fast. Too fast.
No, I'm not a competitive TCG player. I only play TCGO. But I'm not a complete idiot either.
Yeah, but was everyone doing that in the Uxie format? Finishing the game in two turns? Finish up their deck as quickly as that? I don't think so.

 

[tototavros]

It wasn't a slow format. I never mentioned slow format. I'm saying the current format is fast. Too fast.
No, I'm not a competitive TCG player. I only play TCGO. But I'm not a complete idiot either.
Yeah, but was everyone doing that in the Uxie format? Finishing the game in two turns? Finish up their deck as quickly as that? I don't think so.

No, only the donk decks. Just as they do today. Nowadays, we don't have TRUE donk decks due to a lack of Crobat G effect and Seeker (outside of Shiftry), but we have decks like Night March, Blastoise, etc. that essentially are the same thing.

I don't see how you can compare DP-HS with BCR-RSK and call BCR "too fast". Yes, it is fast, yes there is a power creep. But, you have pretty much the same thing except for missing BTS and Claydol. You have a large variety of utility Supporters, you have a class of Pokemon with cards specifically affecting them, members of this class have good ways of disrupting evolution (Garchomp C Lv.X, Landorus-EX, Mewtwo-EX, Darkrai-EX, Yveltal-EX), there is a very solid item-lock options in Dialga G and Seismitoad-EX, a large variety of decks being viable, and a solid non-item based forms of gusting in Luxray GL Lv.X and Lysandre.

 

[CYL]

No, only the donk decks. Just as they do today. Nowadays, we don't have TRUE donk decks due to a lack of Crobat G effect and Seeker (outside of Shiftry), but we have decks like Night March, Blastoise, etc. that essentially are the same thing.

I don't see how you can compare DP-HS with BCR-RSK and call BCR "too fast". Yes, it is fast, yes there is a power creep. But, you have pretty much the same thing except for missing BTS and Claydol. You have a large variety of utility Supporters, you have a class of Pokemon with cards specifically affecting them, members of this class have good ways of disrupting evolution (Garchomp C Lv.X, Landorus-EX, Mewtwo-EX, Darkrai-EX, Yveltal-EX), there is a very solid item-lock options in Dialga G and Seismitoad-EX, a large variety of decks being viable, and a solid non-item based forms of gusting in Luxray GL Lv.X and Lysandre.

Your post hardly even refers to my point. I'm not talking about specific sets in BCR or RSK. Did I mention Boundaries Crossed? Nope. Did everyone finish up their deck in two turns? NO. What does item-locks and disrupting evolution have to do with two-turn, burn-through-it-as-quickly-as-possible decks? As far as I'm concerned, Toad decks don't finish in two turns. Uxie decks didn't finish in two turns. In fact, Lysandre didn't exist in DP-HS.
If you're going to reply to my posts, please make it related to my point - that the current format is too fast.

 

[tototavros]

Your post hardly even refers to my point. I'm not talking about specific sets in BCR or RSK. Did I mention Boundaries Crossed? Nope. Did everyone finish up their deck in two turns? NO. What does item-locks and disrupting evolution have to do with two-turn, burn-through-it-as-quickly-as-possible decks? As far as I'm concerned, Toad decks don't finish in two turns. Uxie decks didn't finish in two turns. In fact, Lysandre didn't exist in DP-HS.
If you're going to reply to my posts, please make it related to my point - that the current format is too fast.

By BCR-RSK, this IS the current format (until Sep. 1st). I was saying that, yes, it was too fast, just as most people say that DP-HS* was too fast, and then I backed it up by likening DP-HS* to BCR-RSK (the current format). If you're going to tell me how to reply to your posts, please first understand my replies.

 

[CYL]

By BCR-RSK, this IS the current format (until Sep. 1st). I was saying that, yes, it was too fast, just as most people say that DP-HS* was too fast, and then I backed it up by likening DP-HS* to BCR-RSK (the current format). If you're going to tell me how to reply to your posts, please first understand my replies.

Let's make this clear.
1. Post #71: "...call BCR "too fast"" - yes, that's called 'referring to a specific set'.
2. When was their mention that DP-HS was too fast? The issue here isn't about the speed of DP-HS. Instead, it's about how the current format is too fast.
3. Likening a format to another isn't called 'backing up your argument'.
So yeah, I guess that shows who has to understand replies first.

 

[Mora]

Let's make this clear.

Yes, let's.

Here's what I see:

Post #70; CYL: "It (DP-HS) wasn't a slow format... I'm saying the current format (BCR-ROS) is fast. Too fast."
Post #71; tototavros: "Yes, it is fast, yes there is a power creep. But, you have pretty much the same thing (as DP-HS)."
Post #72; CYL: Omg, your post doesn't counter mine.
Post #73; tototavros: Yes it does.
Post #74; CYL: No it doesn't.(?)

Not sure what the disconnect is here.

When was their mention that DP-HS was too fast? The issue here isn't about the speed of DP-HS. Instead, it's about how the current format is too fast.

Too fast? What is too fast? Compared to what perhaps? It seems that the very nature of that statement is to compare formats, and so if you want to talk about whether or not this format is too fast, I wouldn't consider older formats to be completely irrelevant on the basis that they're not the format we're focusing on. Oh, and you also very clearly compare the two formats in post #68. Not sure if you remember doing that, but I think that's how we got to comparing that particular format. Hopefully this clears a few things up, and steers things away from a flame war.

 

[CYL]

Yes, let's.

Here's what I see:

Post #70; CYL: "It (DP-HS) wasn't a slow format... I'm saying the current format (BCR-ROS) is fast. Too fast."
Post #71; tototavros: "Yes, it is fast, yes there is a power creep. But, you have pretty much the same thing (as DP-HS)."
Post #72; CYL: Omg, your post doesn't counter mine.
Post #73; tototavros: Yes it does.
Post #74; CYL: No it doesn't.(?)

Not sure what the disconnect is here.



Too fast? What is too fast? Compared to what perhaps? It seems that the very nature of that statement is to compare formats, and so if you want to talk about whether or not this format is too fast, I wouldn't consider older formats to be completely irrelevant on the basis that they're not the format we're focusing on. Oh, and you also very clearly compare the two formats in post #68. Not sure if you remember doing that, but I think that's how we got to comparing that particular format. Hopefully this clears a few things up, and steers things away from a flame war.

The disconnect? I was talking about the speed of the current format. He/she was talking about the speed of the DP-HS format.
I was talking about how this format is too fast because there's so many drawing cards that the game ends within two turns. He/she states that DP-HS was even faster since the game finished in even faster back then (I presume), due to item locks and a certain Lysandre. Which I countered by saying, no, that wasn't the speed of the DP-HS format, item locks don't make games end in two turns, and Lysandre didn't exist back then. Clear?

I doubt I was comparing formats in #68. Uxie LA was mentioned as being more broken than Shaymin-EX as it draw an additional card, and I countered that that format was irrelevant as Shaymin-EX is used in conjunction with many other drawing cards only present in this format, which makes the current format broken. The only time I mentioned the DP-HS format was to state that it shouldn't be brought up in comparison.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, but trying to prevent one doesn't include taking sides. I thought.

 

[Mora]

I'm not taking sides. Debating over whether or not this format is too fast or exactly which cards are broken and which cards aren't is not even my intention. I guess I'm just trying to say that maybe you two are talking about the same thing. You said that you're talking about this format, that everything is too fast and that games are over by turn two among other stuff. What the other guy is saying is basically that you're absolutely right, but that it's always been like that, kind of sort of, to at least some extent, maybe not exactly the same, see the DP-HS format, etc. That was the extent of his comparison (tototavros can correct me if I'm wrong). And of course if you want, you're more than welcome to discuss whether the comparison between the two aforementioned formats is fair or not. I'm not endorsing what he's saying. No one's ganging up on anyone. I'm just trying to figure out what's up because it sounds to me like you two don't realize you're saying basically the same thing. Arguing about what the other said is not productive, but discussing how the format is too fast (or not too fast) because of particular cards that are (or aren't) broken is productive, and that is what I was hoping to return to in my prior post. That is all.

Or alternatively, if you are all as confused as I am, we can always just drop it

 

[CYL]

I'm not taking sides. Debating over whether or not this format is too fast or exactly which cards are broken and which cards aren't is not even my intention. I guess I'm just trying to say that maybe you two are talking about the same thing. You said that you're talking about this format, that everything is too fast and that games are over by turn two among other stuff. What the other guy is saying is basically that you're absolutely right, but that it's always been like that, kind of sort of, to at least some extent, maybe not exactly the same, see the DP-HS format, etc. That was the extent of his comparison (tototavros can correct me if I'm wrong). And of course if you want, you're more than welcome to discuss whether the comparison between the two aforementioned formats is fair or not. I'm not endorsing what he's saying. No one's ganging up on anyone. I'm just trying to figure out what's up because it sounds to me like you two don't realize you're saying basically the same thing. Arguing about what the other said is not productive, but discussing how the format is too fast (or not too fast) because of particular cards that are (or aren't) broken is productive, and that is what I was hoping to return to in my prior post. That is all.

Or alternatively, if you are all as confused as I am, we can always just drop it

Sorry for my temper flare. Let's just drop it.

 

[tototavros]

Let's make this clear.
1. Post #71: "...call BCR "too fast"" - yes, that's called 'referring to a specific set'.
2. When was their mention that DP-HS was too fast? The issue here isn't about the speed of DP-HS. Instead, it's about how the current format is too fast.
3. Likening a format to another isn't called 'backing up your argument'.
So yeah, I guess that shows who has to understand replies first.

I was using BCR as an abbreviation

The disconnect? I was talking about the speed of the current format. He/she was talking about the speed of the DP-HS format.
I was talking about how this format is too fast because there's so many drawing cards that the game ends within two turns. He/she states that DP-HS was even faster since the game finished in even faster back then (I presume), due to item locks and a certain Lysandre. Which I countered by saying, no, that wasn't the speed of the DP-HS format, item locks don't make games end in two turns, and Lysandre didn't exist back then. Clear?

I doubt I was comparing formats in #68. Uxie LA was mentioned as being more broken than Shaymin-EX as it draw an additional card, and I countered that that format was irrelevant as Shaymin-EX is used in conjunction with many other drawing cards only present in this format, which makes the current format broken. The only time I mentioned the DP-HS format was to state that it shouldn't be brought up in comparison.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, but trying to prevent one doesn't include taking sides. I thought.

Sorry for my temper flare. Let's just drop it.

This will probably be my final post in this thread, I only mean it to clear up a few points of possible confusion. My main point of why it was too fast was because of Luxray GL Lv.X and Garchomp C Lv.X, one providing a powerful gusting ability (which although not always in ability form, gusting not based on a coin flip always speeds up a format) and the other a meaningful way to stop evolution decks from easily getting started via a powerful sniping attack on a high HP Pokemon that is easily able to get out, and attack speedily (which speeds up the format, due to it being necessary to get down your high HP Pokemon ASAP to prevent it from 6-0'ing you).

I then used those examples to say that this format is too fast, as was the current debate topic, as we have those sorts of cards in Lysandre and Landorus-EX (and to a lesser extent in Ninetales DRX, Kyurem NVI, and MLatios-EX).

Thank you for calming this down Mora.

 

[Vitinic]

I think Shaymin is broken though...

EX requiring DCE to do fragile damage to avoid knocking out and doing a Bianca is broken? You guys clearly don't remember Uxie from Legends Awakened. Neither Claydol from Great Encounters. If Shaymin is broken then what the hell were these.