How to Build an Effective Deck?

RunningWithScizors

RunningWithScizors

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Well, I'd like to get back into tournament play after being out of the loop for awhile. Trouble is, I'm not very talented at deckbuilding. Sure, I can take a list off the Internet and build it, but I'm no good at building decks on my own.

The problem? Getting the Trainer/Supporter/Stadium card lines down pat.

I can get the Pokemon lines down well, and I can get the Energy lines down perfectly. But the T/S/S lines? I always fumble those.

So, if you could give me some tips/tricks/advice on building an effective deck from scratch so I can improve my tournament play, I would greatly appreciate it.
 
The Trainer/Supporter/Stadium really depends on the deck and what you're intending with it. Each deck is rather unique so unless you specify a deck, we can't really say for certain. But we can use examples!

E.g. My Aromatisse deck is mostly getting my Spiritzee, Xerneas and as well as Gardevoir out so Supporters are 4 Sycamore/Juniper, 3 Pokemon Fan Club, 4 N for disruption, 1 Lysandre Trump Card to get back all the burnt cards and to disrupt any deck that requires Pokemon to be discarded, 2 Lysandre, 1 Teammates and 1 Colress. Usually, Supporters should be at most 1/2 of your T/S/S block for the sake of consistency. You would want to draw those supporters.

Trainers is designed to complement your deck. So for the above, I have 3 Max Potion, 1 Computer Search, 2 Spirit Links, etc. For Stadiums, unless you heavily rely on a certain ability, then you'll want 2-3. 4 is only needed if you need to win the Stadium Wars.
 
I meant if there was a new set coming out (e. g. Roaring Skies in a few days and you wanted to build a deck around, say, Colorless M Rayquaza EX or M Gallade EX) and you were building a deck that nobody has seen before. How would you go about building the T/S/S line for that?
 
Of course, there are many different techniques to building T/S/S lists. They'res also controversy over what is better, but follows is what I think is the most accepted (and my thoughts based on experience).

I've noticed that most competitive decks use a very similar deck list (of which the common draw lists I've primarily collaborated here). When I make a deck, I generally create the draw section first. Then I add other cards - like 3-4 Tools - that I think would be useful, along with 2-3 Stadiums as a counter. After that, I feel in with other supportive Trainers. If I'm focusing on a disruptive deck, I look for disruptive cards (i.e. Hammers). If I feel I really want draw to set up easier (though not recommended with Toad in format), I choose more draw (Acro Bike, Bicycle, Skates). Other cards that I potentially add are Super Scoop Up or Max Potion (as a heal cards). I also often find Professor's Letter, Switch (especially!), Energy Switch and Startling Megaphone are cards to consider when making lists, as they're good all rounder techs.

When I was making the decklist for my Cancer Retreat Basher rogue deck, I firstly thought of what cards I actually needed for the deck to function properly - the attacking Pokemon, the Jellicent, Muscle Band and Team Aqua's Hideout/Silent Lab. I realised the large amount of cards I need for the deck to work, so I decided I needed a fast draw. I looked at the Cancer Deck Engine and then chose it for my basis. Then I decided how to fill the remaining space. I needed Startling Megaphone to counter Float Stone, so chucked a few of those in. Finally, I decided I /do/ need maximal draw, so the remainder were all draw cards.

tl;dr
  • Is there anything that your deck needs to perform (i.e. specific Tools, Stadiums)?
  • Decide on your deck engine - fast or medium speed.
  • See of there is anything that needs to be countered, and devise sufficient counters.
  • Choose what type of trainer spec you're looking for - consistency, speed, disruption, support - and add supporters based.
When deciding how many of each card to run per Trainer, I decide which cards I want to draw most often (i.e. consistency) - typically cards you can use at any point throughout the game. They're the ones I crank up to 4. I then decide which cards I want to draw often, but I can't always use (or need to use), however still are required if the deck is to function properly. Those are my 3s. Next, I would decide what cards I don't really need, or are situational. I make those 2s. Personally, I dislike using 1-off cards besides Lysandre's Trump or Draw Supporters, but if I do, they're often the cards that are only needed once or twice throughout the entire game/deck, and are not required as major counter techs.

Examples:

Commonly run as four:
Draw Supporters (often max at 10-12 combined) - Juniper, N, Shauna, Birch,
Draw Cards (depends on draw) - VS Seeker, Acro Bike
Stadiums - If you need to win the Stadium War
Spirit Links - Often equal to the amount of Pokemon that need them
Crushing Hammer - It is rare when your opponent doesn't have energy on the field, and they're chance cards
Hypnotoxic Laser - Can be necessary to get 1-hit KOs, and is nearly always useable

Commonly run as three:
Most of the above (minus Supporters)
Muscle Band/Other Situational Tools - Many decks only use 3 attackers that need Band in a game, or only have 3 attackers that need Band set up at a time
Energy Switch/Switch/Escape Rope - Occasionally as 3 for bulk and surprise energy switching
Ultra Ball - You don't want to discard too often, and you often get the Pokemon you need with 3

Commonly run as two:
Some of the above (i.e. Switches)
Lysandre/Skyla/Other non-draw Supporters - You often want to use a draw Supporter over a non-draw
Enhanced Hammer - You won't always see a Special Energy on the field
Professor's Letter - For the uncommon circumstances when you don't draw energy
Startling Megaphone - If Garbodor destroys your deck completely

Commonly run as one:
Some of the above (i.e. Switches, Enhanced Hammers, non-draw Supporters)
ACE Spec - No duh
Lysandre's Trump Card - You can recycle this with VS Seeker
Town Map - You only need 1 in the whole game
 
Brilliant, bbninjas! But I would ask a few questions:

What is a "fast engine" vs. a "medium engine"? Could you perhaps spell these out as partial Trainer/Supporter lists? Not familiar with the advanced jargon.

Why 4 Spirit Links or Crushing Hammers? Wouldn't that take up too much space?

Also, what do you mean by consistency vs. speed vs. disruption vs. support? Again, what Trainers/Supporters/Stadiums would be helpful in each situation?

Finally, how do you know when a deck is exactly right? People say one should practice, but how much practice is enough?
 
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RunningWithScizors said:
Brilliant, bbninjas! But I would ask a few questions:

What is a "fast engine" vs. a "medium engine"? Could you perhaps spell these out as partialTrainer/Supporter lists? Not familiar with the advanced jargon.

Why 4 Spirit Links or Crushing Hammers? Wouldn't that take up too much space?

Also, what do you mean by consistency vs. speed vs. disruption vs. support? Again, what Trainers/Supporters/Stadiums would be helpful in each situation?

Finally, how do you know when a deck is exactly right? People say one should practice, but how much practice is enough?
Click to expand...

Haha, no problem!

1. A fast engine is one that is more aggressive; i.e. you try to get through your deck faster. A medium engine is one that is more conservative. The standard engine (4 Juniper, 4 N, 3 VS, 3 Ultra) is commonly played at a medium speed, while fast is played much more aggressively (discarding lots of cards to get cards you need etc). A engine that is made to be very fast is the Cancer Engine.

2. Four Spirit Link is the absolute, of course. You'd also only run equal to or less amount of Spirit Links for the amount of Megas you've used. If you run 4 Megas, however, you most often will only need 3 Links (as you dont normally power 4 Megas up), but if your run 3 Megas, I'd run 3 Links, as you often would power 3 Megas up. In decks that focus on disruption, you'd use lots of Crushing Hammers to maximise your disruption. See decks like Seismitoad-EX. Remember that you have around 30 Trainers to fill up. About a third will be draw, but what about the rest?

3. Consistency is basically making your deck more likely to draw what you need or get what you want when you want it. A speed deck would involve drawing huge quantities of your deck at a time (even 30+ cards!), however often require lots of items, and thus falls to Toad. And disruption deck would run a lot of cards that, well, disrupt your opponent's play. Making their hand low, removing energy and stopping the play of items is all types of disruption. Support cards are primarily cards that support your deck functioning, and relate to consistency.

Cards that improve:

Consistency:

- Juniper/Sycamore - Drawing 7 cards is the basis of your game
- N/Birch/Shauna/Colress - also allows you to draw lots of cards
- VS Seeker - To reuse supporters
- Jirachi-EX - Another way to get supporters
- Ultra Ball/Repeat Ball/etc - A way to get Pokemon without drawing them
- Skyla - A way to get any Trainer
- Random Receiver - Another way to get supporters
- Computer Search ACE Spec - A way to get any card!!
- Professor's Letter - To get energy when you need it
- The more of the same card in a deck, the more consistent it is to get that card, but the more one-offs, the less consistent your deck becomes

Speed:

- Acro Bike - Milling your deck + drawing a card
- Juniper/Sycamore - Drawing 7 cards is the basis of your game
- Roller Skates - Chance draw card
- Bicycle - Draw card
- Battle Compressor - can be used to mill deck to remove cards you don't need
- Random Reciever - A quick way to get supporters
- Trainer's Post - To grab even more cards in your deck
- Jirachi-EX - A quick way to get supporters
- Shaymin-EX - More non supporter draw
- Lots and lots of draw cards :p

Disruptive:

- Crushing Hammer - Discarding energy
- Enhanced Hammer - Discarding energy
- N - Knocks your opponent's hand down to lower amounts
- Red Card - Knocks your opponent's hand down to 4 cards
- Head Ringer/Jamming Net - Stops your opponent EX from having Tools on it, as well as has negative effects for your opponent
- Lysandre/Pokemon Catcher - Can be used as a stalling tatic, or to mess around with strategy (i.e. Trevenant XY)
- Startling Megaphone - Discards Tools of your opponent's
- Anything that annoys your opponent or potentially stops them from doing something

Supportive:

- Energy Switch - Moving energy to hit with surprise
- Switch/Escape Rope - Get Pokemon out of tough situations
- Lysandre/Pokemon Catcher - Allows you to bring out a Pokemon to get your last prizes, or bring out someone threatening
- Professor's Letter - To get energy when you need it
- Startling Megaphone - To prevent Garbodor, or remove Tools that could be dangerous

4. I don't think you can ever have not enough practice, especially with an ever changing format. I think a good deck is a deck that can beat various top tier decks (Yveltal, Seismitoad, Flareon, VirGen, Donphan, Primals, Metal, Fairy etc) over 50% of the time. When starting testing I suggest you take note of cards you don't often use, and lower or remove the amount you use, or cards that you need, but never seem to have enough when you need them, and maybe increase those. But to be honest, testing is really trial and error, and lots of experience.
 
OK, that explains everything but the "fast engine." What would be a partial decklist that would be an example of that? (Not a premium member, so I don't know about your engine, and not willing/able to sign up)

Also, what's a good baseline for training? (# of games/day minimum)
 
Check out this. The Cancer engine is the example of an engine that draws lots of cards. Basically a fast engine is a draw structure that draws huge quantities of cards at a time. You can also use the common/standard deck engine and add a lot of Speed Trainer cards to create a faster engine.

Training... I personally just do it when I have time. Since I don't ever go to tournaments like Nationals and States, I don't test as much.
 
Dan Flavin said:
Is there ever a time to make a deck that focused on discarding a ton of cards, then retrieving them?
Click to expand...
Yes...? But what do you mean? Nightmarch and Flareon both run on card discards, while Bronzong will often also use Battle Compressors. If you mean an /engine/, I've heard about speculation for one, but never seen a list that works (or a list at all).
 
Well, I'm building decks on my own now, and I'm still running into trouble. How can I build a T/S/S line that's both fast and consistent?
 
RunningWithScizors said:
Well, I'm building decks on my own now, and I'm still running into trouble. How can I build a T/S/S line that's both fast and consistent?
Click to expand...
Argueably the quickest supporter line runs something like this, except is ridiculously susceptible to things like Toad.

  • 1 Jirachi-EX/Shaymin-EX
  • 4 Professor Sycamore
  • 1 Lysandre's Trump Card
  • 4 Random Receiver
  • 4 Roller Skates and/or 4 Acro Bike and/or Trainer's Mail
  • 3-4 Bicycle
  • 4 Ultra Ball
  • 3 Pokemon Catcher
  • 4 VS Seeker
In terms of consistency, really just increasing the numbers of your main lines/cards and adding more draw is all I can suggest.
 
Well, there you have no room for speciality cards like Spirit Links (for Mega Evolution decks), Stadiums (for many decks), or Korrina/Muscle Band (for Fighting decks).

What I'm looking for is a deck engine that's fast, but leaves me plenty of room to put in the cards specific for a particular deck. That "fast" engine won't run in anything but Toad variants - there must be 40 cards in there.
 
To be fair, the above deck format /does/ fit Muscle Band, Stadiums and Spirit Links, you just have to sacrifice a line of draw, which is honestly not too much of a problem. Tbh I don't really know of an overly fast deck list that doesn't involve adding lots of draw trainers. A discard engine may work (myself or someone else would need to make that), however, but I'm not overly sure about that.
 
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