But you almost never do.Camoclone said:
P!P/Rules Should Seismitoad EX be Banned for Standard and Expanded?
- Thread starter Carmen Sandiego
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bsguedes said:
They'll have to find "interesting alternatives" because the best things for those slots are going away. Seismitoad will decks get significantly worse after the rotation because they'll take way longer to kill things, giving their opponents longer to turn off the lock. Maybe the rotation of VirGen will balance that out enough to where Seismitoad can stay a really good deck.
I dont think toad should be banned. Its been really successful through the first couple weeks of cities, yes, but if you are playing in/paying attention to how cities are going and how the meta is unfolding, VirGen saw a sharp spike in top finishes in week 2 because of the prevalence of toad. Toad is hard to beat, yes. but its beatable. I think Lugia EX is the card that should be banned above all else because anything that can take 3 prizes in one turn is too strong. But again, there will be dissenters and lugia does have counters. The thing about toad decks being super popular right now is the ability to abuse Virbank/Laser in conjunction with quaking punch to make KO's with seismitoad a lot easier to get. Once Virbank/Laser rotates, Toad will drop in play because even though it shuts off your deck, it doesnt hit nearly hard enough to do any good. Plus Yveltal has a naturally good matchup against toad decks simply by being able to pop for 100 a turn even without a dce. Most of the good toad decks are actually yveltal decks that just incorporate toad for early game item lock and then build up Yveltal EX for late game KO's, and those decks already naturally run laser. what i cant figure out is why people arent running thick lines of ninetales in their decks, especially with all the type specific stadiums in the format that would rob seismitoad of its laser bumps as is.
and just to talk about rotation a little bit, its not like the grass EX's that have been released are terrible cards. VirGen is just the optimal play at the moment for grass. i could see trevenant ex and even heracross doing very well once virgen rotates.
and just to talk about rotation a little bit, its not like the grass EX's that have been released are terrible cards. VirGen is just the optimal play at the moment for grass. i could see trevenant ex and even heracross doing very well once virgen rotates.
How many did you win?Camoclone said:
I played Landorus/Crobat at states this past weekend and went 5/2 with 3 wins and 1 loss including toad in some way. In my experience headringer + crushing hammer is much more annoying than laserbank. I had went into the tournament anticipating toad and ripped out many of the item cards in favor of general draw supporters as the items cause so much dead weight.
Thankfully, as many of the decks were Yveltal/Toad the crushing hammers did not see play and the head ringer was seldom seen. When I go up against a toad deck with the ringers + hammers unless I get the explosive first turn its a very slow loss as most my turns end relying on top decks or simply saying pass. I can't imagine what this sort of match-up is like for other decks as everything in my own attacks for a single energy. I'm not a player who minds losing, in fact one of my favorite rounds of the day had close matches between a very skilled player and myself where I lost 0/2. Saying pass up to 5 turns in a row hoping to top deck a draw supporter to grab energy while your opponent continues to use item cards takes a heavy blow to my enjoyment of the game.
There is also the issue where it can reliably lock any deck relying on rare candy out before the card even has a chance to be used. I think this is more of an issue with the current evolution mechanics and the stage 1/ stage 2 Pokemon's power more so than toad itself however.
Thankfully, as many of the decks were Yveltal/Toad the crushing hammers did not see play and the head ringer was seldom seen. When I go up against a toad deck with the ringers + hammers unless I get the explosive first turn its a very slow loss as most my turns end relying on top decks or simply saying pass. I can't imagine what this sort of match-up is like for other decks as everything in my own attacks for a single energy. I'm not a player who minds losing, in fact one of my favorite rounds of the day had close matches between a very skilled player and myself where I lost 0/2. Saying pass up to 5 turns in a row hoping to top deck a draw supporter to grab energy while your opponent continues to use item cards takes a heavy blow to my enjoyment of the game.
There is also the issue where it can reliably lock any deck relying on rare candy out before the card even has a chance to be used. I think this is more of an issue with the current evolution mechanics and the stage 1/ stage 2 Pokemon's power more so than toad itself however.
I think Seismetoad is fine, and nothing should be banned. It's not a guarantee they will have a DCE first turn, or that they will get Seismetoad first turn to begin with. This is a game of luck and chance. Just have fun with it.
It actually is almost a gaurantee to get a DCE if they run cancer engine.
raymond25962 said:
Cancer engine?
Basically... Juniper and Trump Card. That's it.
Why's it so effective? Because Random Receiver nearly guarantees a new hand if you want it, or you can shuffle yourself back in. It's terrifying and Toad can abuse it.
Why's it so effective? Because Random Receiver nearly guarantees a new hand if you want it, or you can shuffle yourself back in. It's terrifying and Toad can abuse it.
H
HungryHarkinian
DreamingMunna said:
It's kind of hard to have fun when your opponent is playing a card that has complete advantage against everything except for it's bad matchups. This card alone is the reason why Stage 2's can't be played. Seismitoad is the reason we can't have good things.
Personally it does take a lot of the fun out of the game, and really slows down the game for people with bulky decks. I literally had a league match take 1 hour against Seismitoad EX.
EX Pokemon, especially megas - don't need anymore support but sadly here they are getting way more than they need.
EX Pokemon, especially megas - don't need anymore support but sadly here they are getting way more than they need.
DarkMatterGaming said:
I don't know about you, but I can count on one hand the amount of big tournaments I've gone to where I've seen a single person play Random Receiver.
HungryHarkinian said:
Stage 2s are actually playable. They're difficult, yes, but at States I ran Miltank/Empoleon/Greninja. I won my first three rounds, two against Seismitoad, one against Exeggutor, before coming back late from lunch. What helped me seize victory in most of the games was Teammates grabbing my missing evolutions, Xerosic tearing off their DCE after I've seen them run through 2-3 other ones, and using Manaphy and Diving Draw to compliment my supporters. The other factor in winning, I think at least, was the fact that their Enhanced Hammers and Headringers were ENTIRELY useless against me, and Crushing Hammers were mildly annoying at best.
I don't mean to say that Seismitoad isn't overpowered and completely taking over this format, just that Stage 2 decks can do better than most people expect.
Frost Mage said:
The "cancer engine" hasn't been popular until fairly recently. So no, you wouldn't have seen that many people in big tournaments use it. Let me explain it a bit clearer: The only supporters in the deck are 4 Juniper and 1 Trump Card. There are 4 VS Seekers, 4 Random Receivers, and a large number of Acro Bike, Bicycle, and Roller Skates. There are often Battle Compressors included too, to get Trump Card out of your deck so Random Receiver doesn't grab it, and to get a Juniper in your discard to use VS Seeker for it on your first turn. The "cancer engine" runs through the entire deck, usually in 3-4 turns, then Trump Card's it all back in and does it again. It's undeniably the fastest way to dig through your deck, but it's brought to a dead halt when you can't play items.
CruelBear said:
If you don't mind me asking, how many Xerosic did you play and was it ever difficult to obtain them in the toad match up? Do you think it would have been much more difficult to get them if not using the Manaphy's (assuming you were using the PRC print) deep sea swirl?
Frost Mage said:
Hahaha exactly!! I think the Seismetoad hate is overblown, I don't use him personally, in any deck. I'm glad he's in the format.
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CruelBear said:
That's not a fair assessment. Empoleon has a great power that can help you get out of dead draws, and everyone in the deck attacks for one energy so of course Crushing Hammer is only going to be mildly annoying.
Empoleon is the exception, not the rule, and Seismitoad isn't even the main reason as to why stage twos are virtually unplayable. It's because Pokemon-EX can usually match or exceed the damage output for less effort, and they don't need thick Pokemon lines or Rare Candy to pull it off.
DreamingMunna said:
So this should be the argument whenever the players don't like something in the game? That attitude would be fine if players didn't spend hundreds of dollars and hours a year to play the game competitively--and the problem is that we can't "just have fun with it" when there are pressing issues. Granted, complaining about a card is never going to change anything, but there's some value in recognizing the flaws in the way cards are made.
Also, Stage 2's are not playable outside of Archie (except for Crobat, but that's not a standard stage 2 and it doesn't use Rare Candy). I can't speak for whatever personal results anyone has had, but just look at it from a very simple theorymon standpoint--the fact that Seismitoad shuts down Rare Candy makes the already slow Stage 2 decks far too slow to be playable. The worst part is that because you have to wait a turn to evolve, Seismitoad can ALWAYS get the jump on you and use Quaking Punch before you even have the chance to Rare Candy. There's a reason why basically no States results have included a Stage 2 deck (again, outside of Crobat or Archie) of any kind.
kohu said:
I only used one Xerosic. It wasn't too difficult to get at that point in the game. Like I said, I waited until I thought they weren't likely to get another DCE, so it was several turns into the game. Manaphy was essential, imo. Not only in getting Xerosic, but also in getting out my Stage 1s and Teammates and such.
TokenDuelist said:
Megas are all right because they are balanced by losing a turn after evolving and tools can't always be played. And in Roaring Skies there will be a card that makes tools have no effect! Err!!
Also, would you like to return to the HGHS format? I hope not. Stage 1s and 2s that have lots of support are powerful and don't give up 2 prizes? At least exs and EXs give up 2 prizes when KO'd so that at least balances things out. And like others said, EXs aren't the problem; it's just that evolutions (except Megas) don't have much support. Also, the next format will make people happy again. There are Pokemon that can evolve on the first turn or the turn they were put into play and a Supporter version of Evosoda and again, can be used on Pokemon put into play on that turn so Item locking won't be too much of a problem.