Scoop Up Net Banned in Japan!

[Deseus]

I am, it is by far my favorite format to play in the game.

the main cards that have been causing egregious degeneracy for the last few years are:

Gengar & Mimikyu-GX (Horror House GX is an extremely unfair turn 1 attack that puts an opposing player at a strong immediate disadvantage that is difficult to come back from)
Electrode-GX (being able to use this on Vs and exs is way too strong, there's a particularly degenerate combo with Dialga VSTAR that can take all six prizes in effectively one turn if done right)
Lugia VSTAR (just way too good, combos too well with Archeops/Double Dragon Energy)
RoboSub/Lillie's Poke Doll (these do not need banned exactly, but it is a bit absurd that you can run both of these together. I'd like a special rule that forbids players from running both cards in the same deck)

Scoop Up Net is a good call, it was gonna be real bad with Iron Valiant-ex and was already a problem with donk and stall decks. All this card really needed was to exclude all Rule Box Pokemon, so maybe we'll get a reprint of it with that errata in the future.

The only card on here that’s bannable is Electrode GX. Gengkyu GX isn’t that problematic anymore and it’s reflected in tournament standings on Limitless and Japan. For the average player, it seems overpowered but it’s really not that difficult to play around on the grand scheme of the game. In fact, Shadow Rider is on a heavy decline because Lugia Drago and Palkia all gained so much within the last few sets while Rider has virtually remained the same. Ban Electrode GX and Tinachomp GX because those are the two main issues.

Net was absolutely not a good call because no ex’s that were printed have been problematic like Shaymin EX was. Iron Valiant ex was only used for FTK decks, which aren’t even viable decks in the first place and exist strictly for ladder grinding (which isn’t a real thing IRL). Japan’s priorities towards FTK and not the real issues is very telling of the clear bias they have towards their own decks. The fact they don’t want to address and solve the REAL issues (Tinachomp and Electrode), despite the greater Pokemon community having a clear issue with these two cards, tells you all about the bias they have towards Lugia VSTAR and Alolan Raichu. It’s simple, they don’t want those decks to be worse/become irrelevant because Lugia VSTAR is practically the poster boy of Expanded over there. This is an issue that I and many other US players have had with Japan within the last year or so, which has only gotten worse and worse.

 

[Deseus]

Donk decks become significantly worse (yay!) but Jirachi EX loses one of its only niches, and I'd argue that was probably one of the only good EXs we had (besides randy Megas that Mewthree played I guess).


If they don't ban it I think they would at least have to change the way its ability works from an animation standpoint, because watching someone activate Unown from Ancient Origins. And then draw a card. And then discard Unown. And then do that again with a second Unown. And then Rescue Carrier those Unowns back into the hand. And then do that whole process again 10 more times was physically aging me by several years.

Maybe ADP too? It's not the MOST op thing out there and there are ways to counter it but like. I don't think people should be forced to run otherwise useless cards like Pokemon Ranger because of ONE stupid card that shouldn't have been printed.

This is the main issue I have with a lot of people who look at Expanded. ADP is NOT problematic in any way and being “forced” to play Ranger isn’t really a valid reason to ban it. People are too emotionally reactive to things that seem too good or annoying, rather than being a truly smart, critical thinker. Using AC on ADP isn’t as problematic so let’s look at decks that use it: ADP Dragonite and ADP Palkia.

ADP Dragonite, basic deck that can attack turn 1. AC + KO + KO is nothing noticeably different from KO + KO + KO. Your opinion and many others is largely affected by perception bias because you aren’t focused on sequencing, but what the cards do themselves.

ADP Palkia, an Evolution deck that takes time to setup but has higher damage potential. AC takes up the turn that you have “evolution sickness” during your early turns. But it doesn’t matter because it’s still the same: AC + KO + KO. Three turns to win, so it does shave off the # turns you have to win by 1 turn but Expanded is a lot more about sequencing and resource management, not just simply taking prizes. Your opponent effectively takes 3 prizes off the ADP which evens the game out for both players anyways all while you still have to setup your board.

ADP is only good against a slower deck like Shadow Rider and Wobb Stall which is very good but sees little play.

This is one of my frustrations with Expanded is the players themselves. It’s not entirely their fault, the way Japan markets Lugia and Regidrago is an issue because it doesn’t incentivize critical thinking or focusing on the real skills you need to hone. It’s all about playing cards that require minimal thinking or skill to be adept at. Ofc, all decks require some thinking. But the decks Japan uses, and the way they market them, don’t really require too much thinking or thought into resource management/sequencing which are the two most fundamental skills to being good in Expanded. Lugia, A-Raichu, and Regidrago are all made out to be extremely overpowered when they really aren’t. Yet, because they prioritize less thinking and more linear play, these decks are problematic to new/average Expanded players.

 

[CallahanSGM]

This is the main issue I have with a lot of people who look at Expanded. ADP is NOT problematic in any way and being “forced” to play Ranger isn’t really a valid reason to ban it. People are too emotionally reactive to things that seem too good or annoying, rather than being a truly smart, critical thinker. Using AC on ADP isn’t as problematic so let’s look at decks that use it: ADP Dragonite and ADP Palkia.

ADP Dragonite, basic deck that can attack turn 1. AC + KO + KO is nothing noticeably different from KO + KO + KO. Your opinion and many others is largely affected by perception bias because you aren’t focused on sequencing, but what the cards do themselves.

ADP Palkia, an Evolution deck that takes time to setup but has higher damage potential. AC takes up the turn that you have “evolution sickness” during your early turns. But it doesn’t matter because it’s still the same: AC + KO + KO. Three turns to win, so it does shave off the # turns you have to win by 1 turn but Expanded is a lot more about sequencing and resource management, not just simply taking prizes. Your opponent effectively takes 3 prizes off the ADP which evens the game out for both players anyways all while you still have to setup your board.

ADP is only good against a slower deck like Shadow Rider and Wobb Stall which is very good but sees little play.

This is one of my frustrations with Expanded is the players themselves. It’s not entirely their fault, the way Japan markets Lugia and Regidrago is an issue because it doesn’t incentivize critical thinking or focusing on the real skills you need to hone. It’s all about playing cards that require minimal thinking or skill to be adept at. Ofc, all decks require some thinking. But the decks Japan uses, and the way they market them, don’t really require too much thinking or thought into resource management/sequencing which are the two most fundamental skills to being good in Expanded. Lugia, A-Raichu, and Regidrago are all made out to be extremely overpowered when they really aren’t. Yet, because they prioritize less thinking and more linear play, these decks are problematic to new/average Expanded players.

thank you for this breakdown, i used to think that ADP should've been banned ages ago but i didn't think of this this way. what would be your tier list for decks that are good rn?

 

[Jaxolotl]

Question to everyone: what would we have to ban from expanded to make it fun and/or balanced.

nothing. A lot of banned cards make the format really interesting bc they utilise mechanics that have never been done before (Lt Surge mainly)

 

[TheRainmaker]

This is the main issue I have with a lot of people who look at Expanded. ADP is NOT problematic in any way and being “forced” to play Ranger isn’t really a valid reason to ban it. People are too emotionally reactive to things that seem too good or annoying, rather than being a truly smart, critical thinker. Using AC on ADP isn’t as problematic so let’s look at decks that use it: ADP Dragonite and ADP Palkia.

ADP Dragonite, basic deck that can attack turn 1. AC + KO + KO is nothing noticeably different from KO + KO + KO. Your opinion and many others is largely affected by perception bias because you aren’t focused on sequencing, but what the cards do themselves.

ADP Palkia, an Evolution deck that takes time to setup but has higher damage potential. AC takes up the turn that you have “evolution sickness” during your early turns. But it doesn’t matter because it’s still the same: AC + KO + KO. Three turns to win, so it does shave off the # turns you have to win by 1 turn but Expanded is a lot more about sequencing and resource management, not just simply taking prizes. Your opponent effectively takes 3 prizes off the ADP which evens the game out for both players anyways all while you still have to setup your board.

ADP is only good against a slower deck like Shadow Rider and Wobb Stall which is very good but sees little play.

Yeah, I remember when I first got into expanded in PTCGO I thought ADP Dragonite was unstoppable and even had a 61 game win streak (likely since I didn't have a lot of wins in the format yet), but once I got to that point I started facing a lot of extremely aggressive decks like Fusion Strike Meloetta Turbo decks using Dimension Valley or Volcarona Turbo decks that would eviscerate it, and I even built one myself centered around Tsareena V (the influx of said deck resulting in a ton of Roadblock Sudowoodo starting to see use again).

I do understand the mentality of them hitting Scoop Up Net (besides not being balanced around ex's), because even if FTK decks are inconsistent in a tournament setting, cards/decks that don't let your opponent play at all or just play solitaire is never good for the game, which is why it's weird they aren't also hitting the cards you mentioned like Electrode GX or Giratina & Garchomp GX. A good example of "fair" disruptive decks are Garbotoxin Necrozma and Item Lock Vileplume oriented decks, annoying, but you can play around them.

Question to everyone: what would we have to ban from expanded to make it fun and/or balanced.

The only other card I'd consider besides the ones mentioned is Battle Compressor. It's just... a bit too strong, especially with VS Seeker existing. And I say this as someone who enjoyed decks that thrive on it like Mew3, Mad Party, and Castform. Life Dew is also a candidate if we get even more ways to recycle it, but if it ever becomes a huge problem people may swap out Field Blower for Lost Vacuum, so probably not... plus with 1-2 gust cards and up to 4 VS Seekers, it has actual counterplay.

 

[Deseus]

nothing. A lot of banned cards make the format really interesting bc they utilise mechanics that have never been done before (Lt Surge mainly)

This. The only realistic card I think should be banned is Tinachomp because although personally, I don’t think it’s as bad as people say especially with Lugia Tinachomp (you just bench a lot of attackers assuming LugiaChomp draws optimally all the time which they don’t), but for newer players with less skill in the format, it is an issue. Trode has a case for it but most decks that use it aren’t very good or worth playing in a tournament setting (which yes there have been on Limitless and Japan).

 

[Deseus]

Yeah, I remember when I first got into expanded in PTCGO I thought ADP Dragonite was unstoppable and even had a 61 game win streak (likely since I didn't have a lot of wins in the format yet), but once I got to that point I started facing a lot of extremely aggressive decks like Fusion Strike Meloetta Turbo decks using Dimension Valley or Volcarona Turbo decks that would eviscerate it, and I even built one myself centered around Tsareena V (the influx of said deck resulting in a ton of Roadblock Sudowoodo starting to see use again).

I do understand the mentality of them hitting Scoop Up Net (besides not being balanced around ex's), because even if FTK decks are inconsistent in a tournament setting, cards/decks that don't let your opponent play at all or just play solitaire is never good for the game, which is why it's weird they aren't also hitting the cards you mentioned like Electrode GX or Giratina & Garchomp GX. A good example of "fair" disruptive decks are Garbotoxin Necrozma and Item Lock Vileplume oriented decks, annoying, but you can play around them.

The only other card I'd consider besides the ones mentioned is Battle Compressor. It's just... a bit too strong, especially with VS Seeker existing. And I say this as someone who enjoyed decks that thrive on it like Mew3, Mad Party, and Castform. Life Dew is also a candidate if we get even more ways to recycle it, but if it ever becomes a huge problem people may swap out Field Blower for Lost Vacuum, so probably not.

I agree with this and you bring up good points. The concept of decks being unstoppable is really just a psychological thing that Japan seems to really take advantage of. I’m a bit biased bc I’m the original creator of non-ADP Palkia being relevant, but even though I put Palkia in S tier (which it really is based on its performance in tournaments and if the player is skilled, it’s very good), I don’t market it in anyway to be overpowered or let my biases get in the way. And your point about FTK decks is certainly valid. I guess my point was more about where Japan’s priorities are at.

Compressor personally don’t think needs to be banned and I think it’s necessary for certain decks. But I wouldn’t be upset if it got banned because at the very least people will be forced to think outside the box when they play and not follow the linear, brain-dead thinking that Japan’s Expanded is guilty of promoting through their deck marketing.

 

[AliceVoltaire]

Here’s a breakdown of why Net was not the correct ban and why this is problematic:

https://x.com/gideontcg/status/1717059241805246923?s=20

To summarize, Japan focusing on FTK on not the other real issues with the format says a lot about where their priorities are and the blatant bias towards Lugia VSTAR / Regidrago VSTAR. FTK is far and near from being problematic because not only is it a deck you don’t win tournaments with, but it exists strictly for ladder grinding. For whatever reason Japan plays it like it’s a competitive deck when it’s not.

Donk is absolutely a competitive deck in Japan when they have best of 1 rounds with a 25 minute time limit and no knowledge of what your opponent is playing beforehand. There is no conspiracy here, it is just a different format. The players are not dumb, or misinformed. If a lot of players are showing up with a particular deck, then that deck is seen as being viable enough to take to a major tournament. Donk was a problem, and they took care of it by banning Scoop Up Net.

 

[Deseus]

Donk is absolutely a competitive deck in Japan when they have best of 1 rounds with a 25 minute time limit and not knowing what your opponent is playing beforehand. There is no conspiracy here, it is just a different format. The players are not dumb, or misinformed. If a lot of players are showing up with a particular deck, then that deck is seen as being viable enough to take to a major tournament. Donk was a problem, and they took care of it by banning Scoop Up Net.

Never said Japan players were “dumb” in the first place nor was I implying that in any way. My issue is that they aren’t focusing on the greater problems with the format to make it healthy/appealing to players. If you actually kept up with the format within the last year and the drama that happened between tournament organizers here and over there, then you’d know that there have been a large number of complaints regarding biases towards specific decks and marketing them.

“If players are showing up with a particular deck, then that deck is seen as being viable enough to take to a major tournament.” This is a valid claim itself, but within the context of Japan’s inherent issues and controversy, it’s not. It’s because they are continuing to actively market the deck (along with Regidrago) in problematic ways that A) Turn people away from the format B) Overinflate how good they are C) Because of B, it incentivizes essentially being “brain-dead” and using less skill in deckbuilding and in games. That’s why when PTCGO was still around and tournaments were being held, people didn’t care about sequencing or resource management which are two essential skills to Expanded. They only cared about achieving the certain outcomes of the deck that were marketed. A deck like Palkia isn’t going to get as much hype because there is no noticeable outcome to the deck that is appealing and requires almost no skill compared to Drago and Lugia, despite the fact Palkia is an S tier deck (of which there is objective evidence for on Limitless). That’s why Standard is better than Expanded right now because most top tier decks aren’t decks you can just blindly play (Lost Zone is the perfect example) at least as of Paradox Rift.

 

[CallahanSGM]

Never said Japan players were “dumb” in the first place nor was I implying that in any way. My issue is that they aren’t focusing on the greater problems with the format to make it healthy/appealing to players. If you actually kept up with the format within the last year and the drama that happened between tournament organizers here and over there, then you’d know that there have been a large number of complaints regarding biases towards specific decks and marketing them.

“If players are showing up with a particular deck, then that deck is seen as being viable enough to take to a major tournament.” This is a valid claim itself, but within the context of Japan’s inherent issues and controversy, it’s not. It’s because they are continuing to actively market the deck (along with Regidrago) in problematic ways that A) Turn people away from the format B) Overinflate how good they are C) Because of B, it incentivizes essentially being “brain-dead” and using less skill in deckbuilding and in games. That’s why when PTCGO was still around and tournaments were being held, people didn’t care about sequencing or resource management which are two essential skills to Expanded. They only cared about achieving the certain outcomes of the deck that were marketed. A deck like Palkia isn’t going to get as much hype because there is no noticeable outcome to the deck that is appealing and requires almost no skill compared to Drago and Lugia, despite the fact Palkia is an S tier deck (of which there is objective evidence for on Limitless). That’s why Standard is better than Expanded right now because most top tier decks aren’t decks you can just blindly play (Lost Zone is the perfect example) at least as of Paradox Rift.

wasn't there an issue with Contest of legends and whatever the other tournament was called? i remember reading about it but can't remember

 

[ProfessorZ]

Question to everyone: what would we have to ban from expanded to make it fun and/or balanced.

I know nothing about the format but last time I looked I'd say VS seeker so people have to play more than 1 copy of every supporter in their deck

 

[Deseus]

wasn't there an issue with Contest of legends and whatever the other tournament was called? i remember reading about it but can't remember

Yes. Essentially, a guy named empyreanmonk played in the old COL tournaments and complained that Japan was marketing a deck that wasn’t good. The marketing part is correct, but the “Regidrago garbodor isn’t good” portion wasn’t, or at least there’s more context to it. Regidrago with Garbodor is suboptimal, but suboptimal does not mean it is bad. However the marketing part was still an issue because the way RegiGarb was presented was in a way that suggested it was the only/most optimal way to play it when it really wasn’t. So interestingly RegiGarb had really porous performances in CoL and other US Limitless tournaments which led to questions about match rigging/favoritism in BOTH circuits here and over there, not just CoL. So this became the bedrock for the greater issues of Expanded because this heavy marketing led to the issues that I brought up in that reply you responded to. A deck that sees greater volumes bc people think it’ll be good in tournaments isn’t an issue in of itself. But when you’re essentially telling people there is a specific way to play a deck/a specific decklist to use, and marketing it as the “best” way to play it when it isn’t, that’s an issue.

 

[Deseus]

wasn't there an issue with Contest of legends and whatever the other tournament was called? i remember reading about it but can't remember

COL transferred ownership to a local game store and you can clearly see the big difference between tournament results. The results you see now are far more realistic and the best decks continue to be the best decks, but there is no active effort to promote/market any deck and it shows. When you see some of the decklists, you see a clear effort to innovate and try out different things which is exactly what Expanded should be. Firehouse Tabletop is honestly the gold standard of what Expanded should be and it’s really not that surprising that they’ve seen a great rise in players attending Expanded events there (note that these are not officially sanctioned events that you can earn CP for). Obviously, a good portion are younger school aged folks (college mostly) so attendance will naturally be down during the school months. But you saw like 40-50 people at a weekly event which is about twice of what Expanded Battle Day gets over in Japan sees. Ofc, they can’t host 700+ players like CL Aichi did earlier, and there isn’t going to be 700 players at a Firehouse tournament, but it doesn’t mean that I don’t think Firehouse should be the primary source for people looking into Expanded. Again, the decks that’ve been played show clear signs of innovation and being creative, and having attended some of them I know that Firehouse wants to incentivize critical, non-linear thinking in light of all the controversy surrounding Japan and Contest of Legends from before.

 

[Deseus]

thank you for this breakdown, i used to think that ADP should've been banned ages ago but i didn't think of this this way. what would be your tier list for decks that are good rn?

Tier 1: Wobb Stall, Palkia VSTAR, Lugia VSTAR, Regidrago VSTAR



Tier 2: Miraidon ex, Dragonite V, VikaLeki, Shock Lock, Tsareena V, Arceus VSTAR, Shadow Rider VMAX, Alolan Raichu, Mew VMAX, Meloetta Turbo



Tier 3: Dialga Donk, Gardevoir ex (w/Necrozma GX), Rotom VSTAR, Zacian VSTAR, Turbo Dark, Eggrow GX, Volcarona V, ArcDura, Rapid Strike Urshifu, Orbeetle (Evomancy), Primal Groudon, Zoroark Box, Eternatus VMAX, United Wings



Tier 4: Chien-Pao ex, Dracozolt VMAX, H-Zoroark VSTAR, Mad Party, Regis, UNEC,



*Tinachomp was in Tier 2/3 until Net ban so its no longer a viable deck at all without it.

 

[RogueMike95]

Just for those suggesting formats without multi-prizers and such besides the already established GLC: Do the homework on what blanket-bans like that don't cover. You would be surprised how many times folks try that for banning multi-prizers and then forget that something is left completely unchecked as a result. I think several times people have done that since Lost Origin, they completely forgot about Lost Zone.

As for the discussion on Expanded's cardpool, I agree that Scoop-up Net does not address enough of the issue in Expanded, and that the biggest issues don't involve too many bans. However, I think an alternate route in reducing the overall power of the format across the board, while a very messy and unfigured banlist, would be the only way to attract well more people into Expanded. I know I'm certainly turned off from from playing it much due to the pacing, and have only really dabbled with it because I like Regidrago VStar a lot and wanted to understand just how much it opened up in Expanded.

 

[Nintenfreak]

Gym Leader Challenge

gymleaderchallenge.com

I understand that this is a thing which exists but it is not a sanctioned format or available in Pokemon TCG live

 

[Nintenfreak]

Just for those suggesting formats without multi-prizers and such besides the already established GLC: Do the homework on what blanket-bans like that don't cover. You would be surprised how many times folks try that for banning multi-prizers and then forget that something is left completely unchecked as a result. I think several times people have done that since Lost Origin, they completely forgot about Lost Zone.

As for the discussion on Expanded's cardpool, I agree that Scoop-up Net does not address enough of the issue in Expanded, and that the biggest issues don't involve too many bans. However, I think an alternate route in reducing the overall power of the format across the board, while a very messy and unfigured banlist, would be the only way to attract well more people into Expanded. I know I'm certainly turned off from from playing it much due to the pacing, and have only really dabbled with it because I like Regidrago VStar a lot and wanted to understand just how much it opened up in Expanded.

You're telling me that we'd still have a ban list? Quelle surprise. Maybe the point isn't to not have a ban list but to prevent broken strategies?

 

[Gethbert]

You're telling me that we'd still have a ban list? Quelle surprise. Maybe the point isn't to not have a ban list but to prevent broken strategies?

The issue is that "just prevent it" is near impossible, printing unique cards often brakes intercations designed 10+ years ago. Its very hard to balance a card game and other games can't even get a regular let alone side format right.

 

[dineinunes]

You're telling me that we'd still have a ban list? Quelle surprise. Maybe the point isn't to not have a ban list but to prevent broken strategies?

The game is designed by Standard's perspective and pool of cards. The only way to "prevent broken strategies" would be if they started designing things from Expanded's perspective, but since there's so much overpowered stuff already printed that would mean they would never be able to print anything actually good or out of the ordinary again, which in turn would make Standard extremely boring.

 

[RogueMike95]

The game is designed by Standard's perspective and pool of cards. The only way to "prevent broken strategies" would be if they started designing things from Expanded's perspective, but since there's so much overpowered stuff already printed that would mean they would never be able to print anything actually good or out of the ordinary again, which in turn would make Standard extremely boring.

And just to add onto this, there's certainly one point of controversy coming up with Ace Spec, and that is "what does Pokemon TCG plan to do about Computer Search?" If the reprint it for the wave of Ace Spec stuff, then the design of Ace Spec will be fundamentally warped around Computer Search's level of power or risk generating little to no interest from it. If they don't reprint it, Comp Search remains a card in Expanded with a moderate to high price tag on it. It's already got a decent price tag on it, and I wouldn't put it past vendors to jack up the price of Comp Search if these upcoming packs never reprinted it.

While it isn't around Expanded's balance, and I don't want to derail the thread too much, it is something that certain fans would have arguments over from maintaining Standard's balance versus making Expanded more accessible in general.