Discussion BKT-On Supporter Counts

Yog

Yog

Rogue
Member
With the reveal of Lusamine in SM4, it's starting to look pretty for certain that we won't be seeing a Vs Seeker reprint any time soon. I'm sure a lot of us have started testing for rotation-onward decks already, and no Vs Seeker is kind of a big deal for consistency.

Tapu Lele is obviously a crucial card for retrieving Supporters from within your deck, 3-4 counts are going to become more common than the current 2-3. There is also Puzzle of Time for those that want to try fit it in place of the four Seekers, but obviously this is not going to be as smooth due to needing a pair in hand, especially with Teammates rotating too. Random Receiver counts may rise as well, but clearly it's not the same.

I would like to know what people's starting point Supporter Count for an average Standard Deck looks like so far.

Obviously every deck is going to have it's own specific requirements, like the occasional Ninja Boy or Ranger. But these 1-ofs actually become one-ofs now, not the five-ofs Vs Seeker allowed. So if it's crucial to a deck's strategy, it may have to be a 2 or 3-of, which of course means less room for other cards. I see Lusamine counts being quite high in most decks that need anything outside the very basic Draw & Switching support.

So far for myself, I've been running something similar to this in most decks;
1 Brigette (for T1 , if Brigette not required then a Lillie in place)
4 Sycamore
3 N
1 Wicke
3 Guzma
2 Acerola
1 PCL

I would love to see some other BKT-On lists if people are willing to share. Again obviously, a Kiawe is crucial to one deck but not most. Where is your starting point? What cards have been under-rated in this new format? Is Darkrai GX/Psychic Third Eye the new meta? :v Let's talk all-things Supporter for this new format.

Here is a list of everything we know that will be in standard so far;
Lusamine

Guzma

N
Wicke
Judge

Professor Sycamore
Lillie
Hala
Skyla
Mallow
Sophocles
Psychic's Third Eye
Misty's Determination
Shauna
Ilima
Hau
Tierno
Professor Oak's Hint
Lass's Special

Giovanni's Scheme
Kukui

Brigette
Pokémon Fan Club
Olivia
Wally

Masked Royal
Kiawe
Fisherman
Clemont

Brock's Grit
Karen

Acerola
Olympia
Pokémon Breeder
Pokémon Center Lady
Lana

Delinquent
Team Skull Grunt
Plumeria
Team Flare Grunt
Team Rocket's Handiwork

Ninja Boy
Gladion
Pokémon Ranger

Ikamanu?
Here Comes Team Rocket
 
Without vs seeker there's no reason to run one-ofs unless you plan on using them turn 1 with lele, so pcl is out.

Wicke is just bad in general.

It's probably going to be 3-4 sycamore, 3-4 N, 1 brigette, MAYBE lillie, 2-4 Guzma, 2-3 Acerola, if you're playing a deck that wants acerola, which probably won't be all of them.
 
Wicke is underrated imo. How many times have you watched your opponent play themselves down to one or two cards in hand, and you just *know* they haven't been foolish enough to leave themselves with no outs. At that moment, Lele to Wicke is so much better than digging for an N or whatever. She has won me a lot of games online, by buying me two or three extra turns of set-up in the early game, where other draw cards would not have had the same effect.

As for PCL you are probably right, I've just found there seems to be quite a bit of Special Conditions floating around with the sets since SM. Espeon the only one of note competitively I suppose, but there seems to be a while lot of Tier 4 or 5 rogue stuff pops up in the client. If any of my attackers are Basics, or my retreat costs are awkward, I like to have one in there somewhere. Less useful for sure, without Vs, but old habits die hard.

Why do you consider Lele a T1 option only? Any time in game has to be the new approach, like a Vs.
 
I've been playing post-rotation decks since Burning Shadows came out because I wanted to get a jump on the new format. After about three weeks of testing, I'll be honest... I don't miss VS Seeker. As long as you're running thick Supporter counts, you're consistency is still as good, if not better, than running VS Seeker. My "Supporter Blueprint" looks like this:

4 Professor Sycamore
4 N
3-4 Guzma
1-3 Acerola (This one depends on what deck I'm playing obviously)
1 Brigette

From there, it just depends on what deck I'm building. If you don't need Brigette because you're running an EX heavy deck, then Lillie is a great one-of Supporter to run because instead of using Lele to grab a Turn 1 Brigette, you can Lele for a Turn 1 Lillie. Outside of those situations, I really don't recommend running any other one-of Supporters.

As far as Wicke goes, I just find it to be extremely situational. A lot has to line up for it to work in your favor. It's worked out for you so far, but I'm sure there will be times when your opponent has a large hand and you have one or two unplayable cards and you top deck Wicke.

I don't think you should look at Lele as the new VS Seeker. You can't play Lele as freely as you can VS Seeker because of bench space. You don't really want three of your spots being taken up by Lele. I like the new format so much better because you can't be as careless with your cards.
 
My counts would be, and keep in mind this is with a ton of testing (both online and in real life):

- 4 Professor Sycamore (Obvious Reasons, best draw in the game)

- 3 N (Good shuffle draw + disruption if you're behind)

- 1 Wicke (As you stated, sometimes your oppponent plays there hand down to 1-2 cards or even 0, so this helps us with our shuffle draw)

- 3 Guzma (Lysandre replacement + switching makes this a very good card to have) *Might go down to 2, since I normally only use 1 in a game)

- 2 Skyla (I know a lot of people will disagree with this choice, but I love Skyla. This card was played as a 3-4 of in decks back in Boundaries Crossed, and its just as good today. It can grab anything you need, at the times you need it. I always use this card in my games.)

- 1 Brigette (Depends on the deck I'm playing, but this is great for decks that need a bit of Set Up)

Thats what I'm solid on running, along with 2 Tapu Lele. People will want to use 3 or even 4, but thats wrong. You are wasting deck space, and you mostly only ever need one. If you dcck needs more than 2 Lele you're deck is inconsistent and you're a bad player. (No offense, but I really don't see the point in 4 Lele!)
 
I consider relying on Lele for a 1-of to be a turn 1 option only.

The problem with running a one-of and relying on lele to grab it is that you're pretty likely to end up in a situation where you need to discard that one-of supporter, since most one-ofs are lategame cards on account of needing as much draw support early game as possible to set up as quickly as possible.

Wicke is definitely better than N and Sycamore in very specific situations, but those situations are rare enough that it's not really important. Yes, sometimes your opponent plays their hand down to one card and it's a draw supporter and you wicke and you get lucky and they end up with a non-supporter, but sometimes they play their hand down to one card just because they can, and their last card is a candy or guzma or something that is the only card they can't use, but isn't going to save them next turn, and in those cases, Wicke either does nothing or helps your opponent.

FlavorfulPineApl said:
Thats what I'm solid on running, along with 2 Tapu Lele. People will want to use 3 or even 4, but thats wrong. You are wasting deck space, and you mostly only ever need one. If you dcck needs more than 2 Lele you're deck is inconsistent and you're a bad player. (No offense, but I really don't see the point in 4 Lele!)
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Card games are based on math. No amount of "Being a good player" will make you draw more supporters or draw your lele more consistently.

Running 4 lele isn't supposed to let you play 4 lele's throughout the game, it is there to increase your chances of hitting lele without needing to ultra ball for it, instead letting you save resources for other things.

It also means you don't have to run skyla, because using skyla to grab a supporter when lele exists is bad.
 
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3 Sycamore (I play decks that use Octillery lines)
4 N
3 Guzma
1 Brigette
1 Acerola

That's my supporter skeleton, and I adapt based on the deck.
 
Xeynid said:
I consider relying on Lele for a 1-of to be a turn 1 option only.
Card games are based on math. No amount of "Being a good player" will make you draw more supporters or draw your lele more consistently.

Running 4 lele isn't supposed to let you play 4 lele's throughout the game, it is there to increase your chances of hitting lele without needing to ultra ball for it, instead letting you save resources for other things.

It also means you don't have to run skyla, because using skyla to grab a supporter when lele exists is bad.
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Skyla is also meant to grab Trainer cards, not just supporters, in case you didn't know. Instead of running 2 extra Leles and "hoping" to draw into one, why not play more consistency cards?

I never said that in order to draw good, you had to be a "good player". The more consistency cards you remove, the less consistent your deck will be. The math is involved on how many consistency cards are in your deck, and if you if have enough and you'll draw them when you need them. Running 4 Lele is inconsistent, as the benefit you gain from 3-4 is very little to justify running them.
 
I've been using 2 Shauna in most of my post rotation deck. Sometimes its better to shuffle my hand and draw 5 instead of forcing both players to shuffle and draw for prizes left.
 
FlavorfulPineApl said:
Thats what I'm solid on running, along with 2 Tapu Lele. People will want to use 3 or even 4, but thats wrong. You are wasting deck space, and you mostly only ever need one. If you dcck needs more than 2 Lele you're deck is inconsistent and you're a bad player. (No offense, but I really don't see the point in 4 Lele!)
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I don't know about this, it seems like a hell of a blanket statement. The NA Champion ran four and that was a big part of why he won. The World Champ deck ran three. That ability simply can't be understated. It gets even more important once Vs Seeker leaves format.

If your deck is running DCE, I think at least three is a must.
 
I like 4 sycamore 3 N brigette (only in certain decks) 1 Acerola and 2 guzma if you have extra space 3 guzma 4 N and 2 acerola also works. (And 2 LeLe)
 
Xeynid said:
Lele is a consistency card.
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You don't understand do you? Why not use more supporters instead of 2 extra Tapu Lele? Tapu Lele can only get you so far.
Yog said:
I don't know about this, it seems like a hell of a blanket statement. The NA Champion ran four and that was a big part of why he won. The World Champ deck ran three. That ability simply can't be understated. It gets even more important once Vs Seeker leaves format.

If your deck is running DCE, I think at least three is a must.
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Sure its important, but if your deck sets up consistently, and you have a good list, you should never need more than 4 Lele.
 
@FlavorfulPineApl "You don't understand do you? Why not use more supporters instead of 2 extra Tapu Lele? Tapu Lele can only get you so far."

Sometimes it's better because you can search it out out with ultraball, but normally 2 Tapu Lele is good enough
 
I'd say 4 Sycamore, 4 N, 3 Guzma, then it depends on your deck.

Wicke is bad. Don't play Wicke. Wicke doesn't get you any extra cards, and you aren't guaranteed to get a better hand (statistically, you are more likely to get a worse hand off of Wicke), and you aren't guaranteed to give your opponent a worse hand.

As for Lele, before Worlds, I would have said 2-3, now I think 3-4 is more reasonable.
 
Okay so i see a lot of people saying 3-4 lele post rotation. And i agree on some level. But if you onlt play the main 3 supporters (sycamore/n/guzma) then i think you can get away with 2 leles still. As soon as you run another tech supporter im fully behind 3-4 but i have 1 deck that only runs 2 lele and i never really have any trouble getting things out.
 
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