General Your Thoughts on Identity

bbninjas

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I find identity an interesting discussion. As humans, we strive to find an identity in something, or multiple somethings. There is a huge number of identities that we might use, and many can be broken down into specific sub-identities. You've got identities such as sexuality, gender, race and religion that have caused much debate, and then some more passive identities, such as your career, friends, hobbies, achievements and family.

True identity is becoming murky. I think that we've become quick to label ourselves or others, perhaps due to society pressures, meaning that indentities are splashed around improperly. In fact, labels are subjective - one person's definition may be entirely different to another's. What's worse is that society too often falsely assumes the character of another based on the stereotypes that accompany that identity! What's identity worth then? And if our identity is inconsitent, and I'm sure it often changes depending on the situation, then what's the point?

So what are your thoughts on the concept of identity? Do you agree or disagree with the aformentioned ideas? Feel free to also share your identity and why you identify that way.

This thread is for intelligent debate and disucussion regarding identity, where by posting your acknowledge that your ideas will be challenged. As this topic tends to become heated, it is important to remain respectful towards all members. Remember that not everyone shares your experiences or worldview. =)
 
This is an interesting topic. Props for bringing it up.

Labeling and stereotyping have definitely make the concept of identity seen as (and partially actually make it) more complicated than it should be. In terms of sexuality, people of the LGBT+ are often perceived as the stereotype that almost "comes with that identity".

Like for example, my best friend is a lesbian. If I, for some reason, bring this up in a conversation, who I'm talking to will think of some with a few tatoos, or a "butch" woman, who drives a Subaru (everyone I know is rich, okay). When in reality, she's not any of that. She's more feminine than I am. When I introduce her to some of my other friends, you can even see that kind of confused look, as if they weren't expecting "someone like this", and that's bothersome for this being something I have to deal with on a daily basis as well. The problem is that stereotyping has clouded many people's perception of identity, and it's hurting a lot of people like my friend because of it.

Identity, at it's core, is what makes up a person, as you stated, their job, hobbies, race, religion, sexuality, goals, achievements, etc. But people seem to be twisting what it means to them subconsciously to something that it's not. It's one thing to consider someone being a lesbian as part of their identity, but it's another to include stereotypes that come with identifying as such, which sadly, more people than not seem to do these days.
 
As a teacher, I deal a lot with youth who are trying to figure out and develop their identities. It's really cool to see things unfold, but at the same time, they all seem worried about a singular concern: fear.

From what I've seen, youth in the 21st century are afraid to showcase their identity, and also afraid of other's identities. The two, ironically enough, go hand in hand; I'm afraid of displaying who I really am because I don't want to get judged by someone else's identity. And it goes in a circular fashion that only gets more complicated and more entrenched. I'm convinced that this is largely why the current generation is prioritizing mental health, as we're attempting to figure out the mental gymnastics we're going through with our own identities.

Fortunately, a lot of this fear is unwarranted. Just because people may not agree with some facet of your identity (sexuality, gender expression, religion, hobbies, etc). doesn't mean they think you're a horrible person. Disagreement is a part of everyday life, and you will need to be able to deal with differing opinions in this generation to succeed in any job. Running, hiding or waving the "bigot" flag won't do anything but alienate you. Disagreement also doesn't mean disrespect, yet so often I see people using these words interchangeably, which is another byproduct of this fear that is plaguing the current times.
 
It's worth to make a few distinctions before tackling this issue.

First, stereotypes are not inherently harmful; they're an easy heuristic we use to make sense of things in situations of limited information; stereotypes, in that way, are a useful tool. So what is harmful is not holding a preconceived idea of X in general terms, but holding to that idea even while dealing with an specific X that challenges it.
Stereotypes, as such, are morally neutral, but the rhetorical and political uses of them can be pervasively harmful (because of their general application rather than as an individual tool).
Strictly speaking, stereotypes are a statistically prevalent trait from a certain human group. For example, I could stereotype anyone on this site in a certain way, based on my years here; that doesn't mean any single individual would prove that stereotype as absolutely true, but it would be more likely to apply to that individual than to someone of another site I know, which I could stereotype in a different way.
The important thing is to consider stereotypes as a jumping point, as it is deployed when approaching an individual belonging to a group, and from there correct our assumptions as it goes (which is useful because it's both inevitable and preferable to not having information about the person), unfortunately, many people fail to see through these distinctions post-fact, be it by malice or confirmation bias. Those are the problem, not the stereotypes.

Second, identities are very complex, multifaceted and subjective issues, with myriad ramifications; we're literally talking about what makes you what you are, both in a collective way and an individual way, and that makes it something very tricky to talk about.
To add more problems, how can someone objectivize a subjective experience such as identity so it can be properly understood by other people? identities, thus, are a negotiation of two aspects, the subjective and the objective, in accordance to a common sense; but, being a negotiation, it is rarely one or the other, not always fully subjective nor fully objective, which will not leave some people happy on either side. And that's the best case scenario.
I bring this up because the concept of identity that's usually called when discussing sensitive and heartbreaking subjects like gender, sexual and racial identity is taken entirely as stemming from the individual, when it is not so simple a matter in practical terms.

What's identity worth then? And if our identity is inconsitent, and I'm sure it often changes depending on the situation, then what's the point?

As I said, identity is the internal perception of one's role in different social contexts; it's what makes you, you; I'll assume you like being you, so I'll just point to that positive expereince of Being to show what identity is worth; similarly, I could point to all the cases where subjective identity isn't recognized and allowed, effectively not letting people be, often with serious consequences. That's important, therefore worth something.

Moving on, identity isn't inconsistent; I mentioned the different social contexts, and that's what makes consistence possible; someone can be a mother and a wife and a sexual being (as much as we children hate to think about it) as well as an empolyee and a boss and a sister and an aunt and a secret cat burglar; all those identities, all those collections of traits and conducts are deployed in contexts where they make sense to be used, and not in those where they don't.
That said, identity can be, not inconsistent, but conflicted; a person can be torn between two different identities when the practical demands of the social roles conflict; a mother could be divided between caring for her child or working, or going out for dinner with her husband or taking that lovely unguarded diamond from the Museum of Rare Jewels. In those cases, an identity will have to reassert itself, even if only in practical terms; the same conflict might happen many times, never with a satisfying (or even the same) result.

So what's the point of identity? That's simple; if you weren't you, what would you be? could we even talk about "you" in that case? "you" only exists opposite to "they/he/she/them", it's the One and the Other, the distinction between our own consciousness and another consciousness that isn't ours. Identity, then, is what signals our consciousness to other consciousness...es.

From this, we can say that identity is two things, then: what makes me, me and what makes me not you. Simple enough. Of course, then we leave the lofty space of consciousness and dive into the thorny aspects of how we use and see identity every day; here's where the much maligned stereotyping comes to play.

How do you act when you have no information about something? you can't, right? I mean, you could take shots in the dark, but a shot in the dark is as likely to be harmful as beneficial; you could just as well do nothing. It works in a similar way with people. When you see something you identify as another consciousness (people in this case), you can't avoid stereotyping them, in the absence of specific information; that is, you assume a number of traits and identities of the person based on the context you see them or outward clues or known information; as an example:

We're in Pokebeach; I therefore can assume we all in this site like pokemon. Am I wrong in this? maybe, but that wouldn't be very likely, maybe less than 1% chance of being false. So I judge it worth the risk of being wrong.

So stereotypes are not born from the vacuum, they require something previous; for example, what is... let's say my favorite movie?
Unless I actually tell you that, you wouldn't know, would you? anything you would answer would be a shot in the dark. However, you could pick up information you have about me and based on the stereotypes, form an assumption about my answer. It is just an assumption, but it gives you something to go on, you just have to be careful of putting too much stock in it or refusing to adapt it if it proves wrong.
Think about it; if you worked without data (since I never stated explicitly here what is my favorite movie) or assumptions (if you never saw anything that could give you a clue to base your assumptions, or somehow refused to stereotype me) you'd have to list every movie I could have reasonably seen ever, and that would be tiresome; stereotyping me will help you narrow the field enormously.

Of course, stereotypes can be negative, too, but there's a difference between false negative stereotypes and true negative stereotypes, although that trueness/falsehood is to be sorted out empirically.
If I was to say that bodybuilders are prone to sudden attacks of rage, for example, that would be a negative stereotype. But the thing is, some steroids do make it more likely to get bursts of rage, and many bodybuilders use those (another stereotype, and more than likely true) so it's still useful, regardless of if it applies to the individual bodybuilder I could be hypothetically talking to.
And of course, to say that gay people are more prone to be child molesters would be a negative stereotype too, but in this case a false one; that distinction between true and false is one we should trust in science and our own experience to make, rather than assign the burden of falsehood to the concept of stereotypes.

So then, stereotyping is a useful tool that allows us to navigate social situations where we lack enough specific information by going from the general to the particular. Obviously, this matters because in any interaction I know who I am, but I don't know who the other person is, and I should know that, or at least approximate it, if I'm going to build a common sense between us; as I'm stereotyping the Other, the Other stereotypes me; that's something many people seem unaware of; that as much as we might complain about being stereotyped (rightly sometimes, since because they're external and general, stereotypes blur a person's subjective identity), we also stereotype all the time, we just don't realize it; to not stereotype would mean to blindly blunder into each social interaction; a blindness borne out of honesty, perhaps, but still blindness, and as I said, no better (and even worse) than the risks we take with stereotypes.

In this interaction beween the other and myself is where identity is negotiated; assumptions are made on both sides, and corrected if necessary; I could ask a guy about football, for example, and he would tell me he doesn't watch football; which is great, because I couldn't care less about it and I was just being polite, assuming he would like football based on his being a man. But, more than likely, he'll like football.
Similarly, he could assume I know about... oh, the swan dress Björk wore to the Oscars that time, like my teacher assumed once, stereotyping me as someone who actually cares about Björk or the Oscars. She wasn't wrong in stereotyping me, mind you; I bet at least half of my classmates would have known what she was talking about; she just happened to pick out the one fashion student who doesn't care much about the Red Carpet.
But following that mistake, her information about me changed; she now knew I knew about Elsa Schiapparelli's work and the Surrealists, but that I didn't know about the swan dress. Aspects of my identity, as she understood it, changed. This happens all the time, for everyone, on both sides of the assumption.

Now, you might be thinking right now that all of this talk is... unnecessary? unimportant perhaps? after all, stereotypes are still used for hate, and our current discussions of identity revolve around serious, even life-threatening violations of it, and that's all that matters; disrespect for religious or racial identities, cultural appropriation, denial of sexual orientation or gender choices, those are the serious issues, and I'm here talking about "negotiations" while people die out there dammit.
Those are important issues indeed. But more, they're important applications of everything I've mentioned so far; an axiomatic, self-evident acceptance of identity issues is a sign of as much narrow-mindedness as its (admittedly more harmful, at the moment) dogged denial. To be able to take a nuanced view of how far identity reaches, how it develops in oneself and how it might be perceived by others is to be able to comprehend it better in all its aspects, and hopefully, to be able to have a greater clarity when confronted with these issues instead of just stating something without a deeper support of it, purely on principle.


And this was just some preliminary clarifications. Did I mention it is a most complicated subject already? because it is a most complicated subject.


From what I've seen, youth in the 21st century are afraid to showcase their identity, and also afraid of other's identities.

I'd say it's a little more complicated than that, P; it's very true that people are often afraid of showing their identity and also afraid of other peoples', but that isn't inherent to this time. What is, however, is the enormous importance we give to the showcasing of identity; Bauman has talked about the role of the market in shaping the new consumer/individual identity; he talked about how the many watch the few, in reference to the celebrities that act as guides and gurus to life in the liquid modernity; however, all the years between that moment and now have made a potential celebrity out of anyone, via social media and the internet, so I don't think it's quite right to say people (youth in particular, being the most avid users) are afraid of showcasing their identity, except in the obvious cases where we talk about specific identity traits in specific contexts; I'd say that most people are compelled to actively, and perhaps, even hurriedly, shape and showcase their identity because of an inflated value of the importance of their own individual identity, and group identity.

When we talk about the individual in the modernity bauman describes, we talk about a person whose comercial value IS their identity; an identity formed through the consumerism of the goods sold on the market, especially of those goods that are specifically geared towards the construction of identities; who here owns a pair of Nike sneakers? or a pair of Louboutins? or has a social media presence? youtube channel, perhaps? blog? all that is the commodification of personal identities, either as the consumer or as the producer.

All this is to say that on these times, identity is celebrated, as one celebrates a product; of course there's a lot of discrimination on certain aspects of identity, but also you'll find dozens of spaces that make that identity, scorned in other places, the focus of their existence; I could cite Gay pride parades, the extensive trans presence in Tumblr, the Black Lives Matter twitter campaigns and protests, nazi communities on 4chan, 8chan, voat, reddit, etc (shockingly, pro-nazi spaces are just thriving on the internet), and many more examples. Even fetishes both innocent and disgusting find their place in the modern world; the only question is how extensive (and physical) that space is.

In fact, you need to go no farther than this site, to the profile messages, to see the importance we give to showcasing identity even here. How many of those are statements thrown in the wind, for nobody, yet for everybody, to read (much like blog posts, tweets, facebook posts, etc)? true, they might start a conversation or an exchange, but if they don't? you're still showcasing your identity in an active, constant way, and, for what reason? because that's the system; to paraphrase Descartes, "I post, therefore I exist".

Also, P's mention of "who I really am" reminded me of something I should have probably included in the clarifications. The notion of "what I really am" is as well more complicated than pop culture and political claims make it out to be; in philosophy, that notion is called Essentialism; it sustains that every thing has a true nature, regardless of how it might present itself; obviously in the context of personal identity we take it to mean the subjective, deep identity that must be upheld above the negotiation and the external identity, on account of its trueness.
You don't need to go very far to see where essentialism does you wrong; if there's a true essence of you, instead of a construction of identity over time, then you're born as what you are and won't ever change; the simplicity and determinism of this claim is useful politically, because it closes down avenues of countering the causes supported, but overall, it's short-sighted; identity is constructed every day by our actions, there's not really a "what I am", not, at least, as a constant in time; rather, there's several "I am"s, as well as "I was"s and "I want to be"s; this also ties in to Bauman, since identity is constructed by our actions, and buying is an action as well; I talked about identities being discarded for the Next Big Thing, and that's very real, and not "bad" as some might think at first sight. It's just how the system works.


If you don't feel like reading all that, I'll summarize it for you: Identity is more complicated than you realize. I haven't even gotten to the really hard part yet.



Now, I'm tired, and this is too long already; maybe I'll continue tomorrow, maybe not; honestly, the thread is too broad for me to do anything but a careful summary; just look, lorde basically said "my friend is stereotyped" and P "you don't need to be afraid" in response to a question that was never quite made. Meanwhile, I write an essay, because I've been studying this for a very, very long time and felt like doing that was necessary.

So, maybe I should have asked this before, but... what are we talking about here? for now, I merely addressed some things I noticed could use some clarification, but beyond that, what is there to say? what question is there to be answered? are we talking specifically about the kind of identities that are subject to discrimination? lorde seems to believe so. Are we talking about the multiplicity of identities in everyday life? or about the challenge of the negotiation and the fear that comes with it in even regular "growing up" identity development, as P talked about?
 
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Am I ever so glad that you shared your thoughts, Light! There's many thought-provoking points here to chew, and it is certainly apparent that you've spent much time pondering the concept, and so I'm going to allow some time to digest personally.

So, maybe I should have asked this before, but... what are we talking about here? for now, I merely addressed some things I noticed could use some clarification, but beyond that, what is there to say? what question is there to be answered? are we talking specifically about the kind of identities that are subject to discrimination? lorde seems to believe so. Are we talking about the multiplicity of identities in everyday life? or about the challenge of the negotiation and the fear that comes with it in even regular "growing up" identity development, as P talked about?
Sure! I have no direction planned; in fact, I just want to provoke some thought. This is not intended to be a "question answered, thread closed" type of thread, but rather an ongoing discussion. Thus, I don't think we should restrict what is to be discussed, as like you said, identity is complex, and so there is much room to discuss . You've narrowed down three potential topics just now, Light: identity discrimination, multiplicity of identities and identity development. If you, or anyone, wish to provide some thought regarding any of those sub-topics you mentioned, please do! That, or we could perhaps pursue a more narrow topic or a more specific question, based on our generalised thoughts on identity, once a few more people chip in.
 
Ahh, I was waiting for this to finally go up. I was looking forward to sharing my thoughts, and now I finally can, even if it isn't as detailed as others have expressed in their posts.

I believe that being able to take pride in how you feel you are as a person and being supportive of the identities of others is a very important thing to have in today's day and age. There's a lot of diverse people in this world, and we should be accepting of that and take the opportunity to make friends with people who share those different identities. You get to see the world from a different light because those other people will have different experiences than you, as will you to them, and you can tell stories about it all. However, we as society tend to judge too quickly, and we aren't as freely accepting as we should be because we think certain types of people will act certain ways and we're afraid of change. Some of that first part may be true for certain people, but the important part is seeing past that; in the end, they're like us. They're still people. (Sorry if none of that makes sense. I'm typing this at 4:15 am.)

My identity is something I've questioned before, in a couple ways. I'll just throw it in a spoiler because I don't wanna clog up the thread with talk about myself.
As some of you might know (and if you don't, you know now), I've got high-functioning autism. I see the world a bit differently and I've got a couple challenges, mostly social nowadays. When I was younger, I'd always put this forward as part of me and I'd talk about it a lot, and I advocated for people who had autism a lot (and still do to this day, although it's on a lesser scale). However, when high school came, I became a lot more shut-in about it, to the point where I just get uncomfortable and jittery if someone brings it up in class, and there have been times where I've wondered if I can even use "high-functioning autism" as part of who I am anymore because I feel like it's not very noticeable that I have it anymore (you'd probably have a hard time telling if you met me IRL without knowing prior).

Another thing I've questioned recently is my sexual orientation. In the past, I've had a couple crushes on people, although I never pursued them. Some of those crushes have been on females, and while I haven't recently had those kinds of feelings for anyone, it's left me a bit confused as to where I stand personally with my love interests and how I identify in that sense.
It's possible I'll add more to this post when I get the chance, just to spark general discussion, but for now, this is what I've got to say about identity. ^v^
 
The entire concept of identity is one that is... Rather complex for me. First of all, I maintain a number of internet-based personas; who I am around certain people may not be exactly the same as when I'm around others. That's not uncommon online or in person. However, from a personal standpoint, what I consider my own, personal identity is rather nebulous. I have a number of mental health issues, four of which are confirmed, and one of which is heavily suspected based on personal research combined with exceeding the criteria for the DSM-V. These issues, at times, severely complicate my own self-identity. Sure, there are a number of things that I identify as/with, but I've grown to doubt many of them during periods of personal... Let's say issues.

Some of the identity markers I share publicly, though, are as follows, in no particular order:
  • Anime fan (not otaku, for reasons)
  • Tattoo enthusiast
  • Team Mystic
  • Canadian
  • Irish diaspora (Irish people who live outside of Ireland, and their descendants)
  • Lover of memes
  • Anthropology enthusiast
  • Autistic
  • Mentally ill
  • Technology enthusiast
  • Child care worker
  • Hardcore Legend of Zelda lover
  • Hardcore Pokémon lover
As you can see, they range from affiliations, to heritage, to personal traits, to interests. There are plenty more that make up who I am, too, but I'll leave some mystery to me. ;) Also the private ones are the one that are constantly being questioned by my own brain. Yay mental illness /sarcasm
 
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