Whoops didnt think about that
Discussion Tier List for 2018 Rotation
- Thread starter Adi
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now im thinking of putting that in my lunala gx/mewtwo ex deck
It can't stop Beacon, Magical Ribbon, or Sparkling Wish, but I run it for more reasons then just to stop Shadow Stitch. It stops Plea GX, Dead End GX, Tapu Storm GX, all special conditions applied by attacks, and a lot of other pokemons attacks. Remember though it only protects your pokemon if they have a metal energy on it The Golden Mewtwo. So unless you run Metal Energy you can't use it's ability. I hope this helps.
I like the card, I just don't play it because I don't think there's enough it negates to warrant it. I asked more to see if there was something i wasn't seeing, but if its mainly for GX attack wall and Shadow Stitch, I don't think I'll play it.
Mystic Heart (Magearna EX - Steam Siege)
Q. If Magearna EX with the "Mystic Heart" Ability is in play, are all Pokemon with Metal Energy attached protected from Greninja's "Shadow Stitching" attack?
A. If Magearna EX has a Metal Energy attached to it, all Pokemon with Metal Energy attached are protected; however, if Magearna EX does not have a Metal Energy attached to it, its Mystic Heart Ability is shut off and no Pokemon with Metal Energy attached are protected. (Feb 2, 2017 TPCi Rules Team)
It does as long as everything, including Magearna, has a Metal energy attached.
PMJ
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It is far too early to put together any sort of meaningful tier list but here's what I think
Tier 1: Volcanion, Gardevoir, Metagross
Tier 2: Zoroark, Greninja, Ninetales, Darkrai, Lapras
Tier 3: Drampa, Tapu Bulu, Golisopod, Decidueye, Sylveon
Tier 4: Tapu Koko (please don't play this deck)
Tier 1: Volcanion, Gardevoir, Metagross
Tier 2: Zoroark, Greninja, Ninetales, Darkrai, Lapras
Tier 3: Drampa, Tapu Bulu, Golisopod, Decidueye, Sylveon
Tier 4: Tapu Koko (please don't play this deck)
@PMJ I agree with your list but I would move Decidueye down to tier four. Without FoGP, it's a hard sell, unless I'm missing something.
@TheDude133 is that right? I was told it didn't work because Shadow Stitching places the effect on the opponent and not the Pokemon directly. If it is, then I have some new tech to work with.
@TheDude133 is that right? I was told it didn't work because Shadow Stitching places the effect on the opponent and not the Pokemon directly. If it is, then I have some new tech to work with.
A. If Magearna EX has a Metal Energy attached to it, all Pokemon with Metal Energy attached are protected; however, if Magearna EX does not have a Metal Energy attached to it, its Mystic Heart Ability is shut off and no Pokemon with Metal Energy attached are protected.>>>>(Feb 2, 2017 TPCi Rules Team)<<<<
Keep in mind that any pokemon in hand/grave are affected still. So Tapu-Lele GX for example.
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Guess I'll tell my friends about that then.
PMJ
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Eh, I'm not too familiar with the deck, or the matchup. Against Ninetales specifically, Ice Blade into Blizzard Edge kills so you have to blow the GX early (and get it GX'd onto a Vikavolt) or Acerola with the 50 on you. Being able to get OHKOed is troublesome and is definitely a notch in Bulu's favor, though, but requiring a Choice Band can lead to some disappointing 2HKOs if you whiff it.
I also forgot to include Espeon, which I would tentatively put as tier two. Espeon and Gardevoir can thrash each other, but I'm not sure how well Trashalanche can clean up the mess, what with Gallade and Octillery controlling your draws.
As for Decidueye, I wouldn't exactly count it out. Losing Vileplume and Forest frees up nearly a dozen spots, which makes room for Rare Candy and other goodies like maybe Alolan Vulpix. I can see the deck becoming a Grass version of Metagross. The spread-focused version with baby Tapu Koko and Espeon-EX is very good and rips apart evolution decks. I don't think it'll be top tier, but I do think it will remain strong enough to compete, even without Forest.
I also forgot to include Espeon, which I would tentatively put as tier two. Espeon and Gardevoir can thrash each other, but I'm not sure how well Trashalanche can clean up the mess, what with Gallade and Octillery controlling your draws.
As for Decidueye, I wouldn't exactly count it out. Losing Vileplume and Forest frees up nearly a dozen spots, which makes room for Rare Candy and other goodies like maybe Alolan Vulpix. I can see the deck becoming a Grass version of Metagross. The spread-focused version with baby Tapu Koko and Espeon-EX is very good and rips apart evolution decks. I don't think it'll be top tier, but I do think it will remain strong enough to compete, even without Forest.
How does it have a bad Garb matchup? The deck was made in Japan literally to beat Garbodor
Okay, after reading ALL 5 pages of answers, I have concluded: People have a crush on the thought of using Greninja, and people forget Ninetales doesn't 100% rely on Safeguard, as well as the fact the deck plays Espeon-EX, which post-rotation, is absolutely devastating. Although I don't see it happening, if TPCI were to ban any card from standard, it would be Espeon-EX, as it's a basic with high HP with an attack that destroys most of the meta and is splashable in literally every deck. Think about this:
If you play against any evolution deck, and you are able to consistently have Po Town in play, Espeon will punish your opponent for setting up, but if your opponent doesn't set up, they lose. There are flaws, but I don't see many. I think this went over peoples' heads, but just think about that. And if you don't believe me, playtest it yourselves and see what happens. I accidentally predicted the FoGP ban I think the day before it happened, and I think I'm going to do it again. Now, if the meta became Big Basics again, that strategy doesn't work, except, play Espeon in an already existing solid deck, and you take on both metas. This is why I see Ninetales as BDIF, with flexible arguments. It was already a stupid-good deck before the Safeguard, but Safeguard makes it autowin certain matchups. If there's ways around Safeguard in your deck, then what do you do about the Espeon and vice versa? I would also like to say that Lapras is trash. You'd think that with no more FoGP, it would be the opposite, but no. It's a great deck for a Big Basics format, but when you set up that much just to not OHKO any evo deck that OHKO's you while having a more consistent setup, how do you win? The only Big Basic decks are Darkrai, Volcanion, and Bulu. I think without Hex or Silent Lab, you effectively beat Darkrai, but Bulu hit's you for weakness and Volcanion plays Ho-oh and gets a great consistency card(Kiawe).
If you play against any evolution deck, and you are able to consistently have Po Town in play, Espeon will punish your opponent for setting up, but if your opponent doesn't set up, they lose. There are flaws, but I don't see many. I think this went over peoples' heads, but just think about that. And if you don't believe me, playtest it yourselves and see what happens. I accidentally predicted the FoGP ban I think the day before it happened, and I think I'm going to do it again. Now, if the meta became Big Basics again, that strategy doesn't work, except, play Espeon in an already existing solid deck, and you take on both metas. This is why I see Ninetales as BDIF, with flexible arguments. It was already a stupid-good deck before the Safeguard, but Safeguard makes it autowin certain matchups. If there's ways around Safeguard in your deck, then what do you do about the Espeon and vice versa? I would also like to say that Lapras is trash. You'd think that with no more FoGP, it would be the opposite, but no. It's a great deck for a Big Basics format, but when you set up that much just to not OHKO any evo deck that OHKO's you while having a more consistent setup, how do you win? The only Big Basic decks are Darkrai, Volcanion, and Bulu. I think without Hex or Silent Lab, you effectively beat Darkrai, but Bulu hit's you for weakness and Volcanion plays Ho-oh and gets a great consistency card(Kiawe).
I disagree with this approach to Greninja. Evosoda != Dive Ball by any stretch because it strictly limits what you can use it on. The rotation cuts the number of ball searches in half (if not further) increasing the likelihood of being donked if you play the straight frogs version, leaving Talonflame up top with no Froakie benched if you run that variant (which further delays evolving Froakie since you can't Evosoda a Froakie you just benched), or being forced to use a variety of 2 prize pokemon like Lele to get a more consistent Brigette / Fan Club in order to increase your chances of getting a Froakie down turn 1. You could potentially add a couple of Nest + Timer Balls, Great Balls, etc., but those are far less reliable / more situational options than Dive Ball.
Promo Giratina is all sorts of meh and is unlikely to see competitive play on the Standard side of the house if, for no other reason, than Greninja itself is highly unlikely to see play in the competitive scene on the Standard side. It helps in some Expanded match ups, but Greninja doesn't lose anything in Expanded (it actually gains a couple things) so this conversation doesn't really apply there.
Basically, for all intents and purposes, Greninja should no longer be tiered at all post rotation for the Standard format. It was already a clunky deck even with the tools it loses. It is going to be all but impossible to consistently set up in upcoming Standard format. There are going to be a couple of top players who might make it work, but outside of those players, this deck probably shouldn't be played by anyone in Standard post rotation.
Edit: Oh, and Quad Sylveon Tier 2? Come on now. Haven't we already had this discussion? The deck is bad. It isn't even as good as Quad Lapras (yeah, I said it) and I wouldn't exactly call Quad Lapras something deserving of a Tier. Sylveon is going to be great...in Gardevoir.
Hey FayID. I' ll let you know how the blue frog and Sylvie do after rotation. I've already pulled off the triple shuriken a couple of times and put together the red card, stadium, deli, torment spray combo as well. The Theorymon here is murky. You could very well be right. But to put you in even more of a top deck mode has to be tried and you know Greninja it always finds a way.
Tapu Koko GX/Electrode isn't even a real thing, just something I've faced on TCGO twice. Being higher than Zoroark BREAK, Golisopod and Darkrai seems weird. Also, how Ninetales GX is tier 1 is beyond me: I think Metagross and Zoroark should be Tier 1 personally.
Greninja BREAK is kinda crippled by the rotation. It loses Dive Ball, Ace Trainer, as well as 3 Stadium cards that it commonly runs (Faded Town, Rough Seas and Silent Lab). I suggest it should be tier 3 post rotation.
Finally, Quad Sylveon has seen no competitive play, despite being hyped. It has too many autolosses. IMHO, I don't think it should even be included on a tier list, as with Tapu Koko-GX.
Metagross definitely should be tier 1, but not Zoroark. Zoroark loses Magma Base, and Po Town hurts Zoroark way too much. Ninetales is definitely tier 1, for it's one of the most consistent and hard-hitting decks post-rotation. I'm tired right now to explain everything, but go to the deck garage and try to find Ninetales decks that I'm involved in, and you'll see my key explanations.