Finished Mafia XLVI - Salem Forces ~ ENDGAME

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Because with quaking being Survivor there can only be 2 townies, scattered and me. I really thought you were town before D4. Sorry buddy, but this time I prefer to trust quaking.
I have a question... Why did you say Jabber is not the best option now?
Because I've deduced that Quaking is the necro and jabber the poisoner. Hanging the necro is much better for us because it gets rid of a Nightkill.
And why trust Quaking when he sheeped what I said and only today brought up evidence that showed Drac as likely town?
 
Because I've deduced that Quaking is the necro and jabber the poisoner. Hanging the necro is much better for us because it gets rid of a Nightkill.
And why trust Quaking when he sheeped what I said and only today brought up evidence that showed Drac as likely town?
Are you sure hanging the necro is better than the poisoner? Take into account that Coven will be worried about the Jugg tonight, so what if the necro kills the Jugg? I don't think the necromancer will be a menace for the Town tonight.
Tomorrow I will search that evidence you mention because I don't remember it. I'm going to bed right now, it's 11:45 pm here and I'm tired. Good night everybody.
 
Also, @Jabberwock , do you agree with my logic, and do you also see Mariano as townie? why? why do you think NP thinks he's townie, if not?
What logic? That I'm a safe lynch? No, I can't say that lynching a townie is a safe option.

I did townread Mariano for quite a while––I think I mentioned my read of him previously. Growing less certain about that, as the NP + quaking scumteam seems less and less likely and he's the only real alternative.
I looked at all the posts that quaking did in this game and found things that make me think he is really the Survivor on a 90%. Of course I can be wrong like I was with Drac, but with my current read of the game, I choose to beleive him based on his past comments.
Give us an ISO, then. A compilation of all the posts quaking has made over the course of the game, annotated by you, that serve to show us why he's survivor. Just saying "I looked at his posts and I'm 90% sure he's survivor" isn't particularly helpful. :U
Are you sure hanging the necro is better than the poisoner? Take into account that Coven will be worried about the Jugg tonight, so what if the necro kills the Jugg? I don't think the necromancer will be a menace for the Town tonight.
Take into account that Jugg can no longer be nightkilled starting tonight, if not last night.

You're kinda ignoring a lot of stuff that it's convenient for you to ignore. Would advise against doing that; it's tunneling. Your blind faith in quaking is sketchy at best and damning at worst; if you can't back that up, a you + quaking scumteam is absolutely a possibility.
 
Day 4, Vote-Count #2

- All votes are in chronological order.
- The players being voted are in alphabetical order.
- The player with the most votes is tagged.
- The majority to put on trial is 4.
- There have been no trials yet today, meaning you have 3 trials left.

@mordacazir (2): quakingpunch73, Jabberwock, NinjaPenguin. T-2
@NinjaPenguin (2): Mariano11887, mordacazir. T-2
quakingpunch73 (1): NinjaPenguin.

Day 4 has had more activity than the entireties of D2 and D3 already, that's awesome! Keep it up guys! :D
 
Quaking-Today at 5:45 PM


I have a question about mafia


Lorde-Today at 5:45 PM


shoot


Quaking-Today at 5:46 PM


If I wanted a safe claim, and I asked you for one, to what extent would I get one?


Lorde-Today at 5:46 PM


why would you need one?


Quaking-Today at 5:46 PM


If for any reason I needed one, what would the answer be?


Lorde-Today at 5:47 PM


Oh, then yes, I could make you one.(edited)


Quaking-Today at 5:47 PM


To what extent would it be though? A name?


Lorde-Today at 5:47 PM


Would it be safe if it were just a name?



I'd likely give you the full role.


Quaking-Today at 5:48 PM


Would it be the same as another person's role or safeclaim?



Or is that not safe?


Lorde-Today at 5:49 PM


It definitely could be. Multiples exist in ToS, and therefore they definitely could in this game as well.


Quaking-Today at 5:50 PM


How safe would my claim be? Would it have to match up with invest results?


Lorde-Today at 5:50 PM


Well, I'd make it as safe as I can. Like for example, what roles do I look for when looking for a Town claiming Survivor.



Wait you wanna role for investigator now>


Quaking-Today at 5:51 PM


No.



I want to know if you would try and match up my safeclaim with corresponding invest result



s


Lorde-Today at 5:52 PM


OH, read the question wrong! In invest results, your safeclaim is normally included in an investigator's results, atleast in this game.


Quaking-Today at 5:52 PM


Like invest gets "real role, safe role, unrelated role"


Lorde-Today at 5:52 PM


yes


Quaking-Today at 5:52 PM


Awesome. Thanks.



Real role definitely is though, right?


Lorde-Today at 5:52 PM


included in those results? has to be


Quaking-Today at 5:57 PM


I have one last question for you. If you can answer it, great. If not, oh well. Is there a Necronomicon in this set-up?


Lorde-Today at 5:58 PM


I won't disclose information like that. For me to know, and you to find out.


NEW MESSAGES


Lorde-Today at 5:59 PM


Sorry.
 
Isn't he the more safe option?
What I was thinking.
Lorde-Today at 5:49 PM


It definitely could be. Multiples exist in ToS, and therefore they definitely could in this game as well.
This certainly is something interesting.
Quaking-Today at 5:45 PM


I have a question about mafia


Lorde-Today at 5:45 PM


shoot


Quaking-Today at 5:46 PM


If I wanted a safe claim, and I asked you for one, to what extent would I get one?


Lorde-Today at 5:46 PM


why would you need one?


Quaking-Today at 5:46 PM


If for any reason I needed one, what would the answer be?


Lorde-Today at 5:47 PM


Oh, then yes, I could make you one.(edited)


Quaking-Today at 5:47 PM


To what extent would it be though? A name?


Lorde-Today at 5:47 PM


Would it be safe if it were just a name?



I'd likely give you the full role.


Quaking-Today at 5:48 PM


Would it be the same as another person's role or safeclaim?



Or is that not safe?


Lorde-Today at 5:49 PM


It definitely could be. Multiples exist in ToS, and therefore they definitely could in this game as well.


Quaking-Today at 5:50 PM


How safe would my claim be? Would it have to match up with invest results?


Lorde-Today at 5:50 PM


Well, I'd make it as safe as I can. Like for example, what roles do I look for when looking for a Town claiming Survivor.



Wait you wanna role for investigator now>


Quaking-Today at 5:51 PM


No.



I want to know if you would try and match up my safeclaim with corresponding invest result



s


Lorde-Today at 5:52 PM


OH, read the question wrong! In invest results, your safeclaim is normally included in an investigator's results, atleast in this game.


Quaking-Today at 5:52 PM


Like invest gets "real role, safe role, unrelated role"


Lorde-Today at 5:52 PM


yes


Quaking-Today at 5:52 PM


Awesome. Thanks.



Real role definitely is though, right?


Lorde-Today at 5:52 PM


included in those results? has to be


Quaking-Today at 5:57 PM


I have one last question for you. If you can answer it, great. If not, oh well. Is there a Necronomicon in this set-up?


Lorde-Today at 5:58 PM


I won't disclose information like that. For me to know, and you to find out.


NEW MESSAGES


Lorde-Today at 5:59 PM


Sorry.
Can you quote it instead of this?
 
Are you sure hanging the necro is better than the poisoner? Take into account that Coven will be worried about the Jugg tonight, so what if the necro kills the Jugg? I don't think the necromancer will be a menace for the Town tonight.
Tomorrow I will search that evidence you mention because I don't remember it. I'm going to bed right now, it's 11:45 pm here and I'm tired. Good night everybody.
Stopping guaranteed kills is almost surely gonna be the best option. If we hang the Poisoner, we need both Necro and Jugg to kill eachother to win. If we hang the Necro, all we need is the Jugg killing the Poisoner to win.
The evidence, btw, is PineApl's role directly mentioning the presence of the Sheriff.
What logic? That I'm a safe lynch? No, I can't say that lynching a townie is a safe option.

I did townread Mariano for quite a while––I think I mentioned my read of him previously. Growing less certain about that, as the NP + quaking scumteam seems less and less likely and he's the only real alternative.

Give us an ISO, then. A compilation of all the posts quaking has made over the course of the game, annotated by you, that serve to show us why he's survivor. Just saying "I looked at his posts and I'm 90% sure he's survivor" isn't particularly helpful. :U

Take into account that Jugg can no longer be nightkilled starting tonight, if not last night.

You're kinda ignoring a lot of stuff that it's convenient for you to ignore. Would advise against doing that; it's tunneling. Your blind faith in quaking is sketchy at best and damning at worst; if you can't back that up, a you + quaking scumteam is absolutely a possibility.
Unfortunately, Mariano is almost surely confirmed town by basis of no kills and almost certainly being doc.
But the tunneling is totally bad. If you want me to, Mariano, I can point to countless games where assuming somebody's alignment and literally not listening to somebody's argument has cost them in the end. If you really even want me to, I can point to Drac flipping town this game, or any other of your suspicions being proven wrong.
I've even found the role based reason, Quaking being Necro with the Necronomicon (which has been confirmed by the flavor noting the ghoul, which only comes in real ToS when the Necro has the necronomicon), for that Sheriff result.
Quaking has this claim that can be explained by necro; does either necro or poisoner explain to you my proven psychic claim? And if him claiming it early is what does it for you, I claimed my role D1.

@quakingpunch73 What does that conversation tell us of any use? The three results in her version of Invest this game means she can always manipulate any results to be together if they were real. Or, to turn the argument on every other role, nobody would be Coven because nobody has claimed a role that aligns with either Necromancer or Poisoner.
 
And that multiple thing is just wrong. Literally nobody should think both Quaking and Morda are surv, because it would mean our Mayor or Doctor are scum. Not to mention all the terrible swing it would cause in the setup.
Starting the game with multiple scum having the same claim that already isn't town anyway is just awful for the people involved. One of them asked Lorde at some point in the game for her to make them a survivor safeclaim, and Quaking doing it only makes sense.
 
Quaking-Today at 5:45 PM


I have a question about mafia


Lorde-Today at 5:45 PM


shoot


Quaking-Today at 5:46 PM


If I wanted a safe claim, and I asked you for one, to what extent would I get one?


Lorde-Today at 5:46 PM


why would you need one?


Quaking-Today at 5:46 PM


If for any reason I needed one, what would the answer be?


Lorde-Today at 5:47 PM


Oh, then yes, I could make you one.(edited)


Quaking-Today at 5:47 PM


To what extent would it be though? A name?


Lorde-Today at 5:47 PM


Would it be safe if it were just a name?



I'd likely give you the full role.


Quaking-Today at 5:48 PM


Would it be the same as another person's role or safeclaim?



Or is that not safe?


Lorde-Today at 5:49 PM


It definitely could be. Multiples exist in ToS, and therefore they definitely could in this game as well.


Quaking-Today at 5:50 PM


How safe would my claim be? Would it have to match up with invest results?


Lorde-Today at 5:50 PM


Well, I'd make it as safe as I can. Like for example, what roles do I look for when looking for a Town claiming Survivor.



Wait you wanna role for investigator now>


Quaking-Today at 5:51 PM


No.



I want to know if you would try and match up my safeclaim with corresponding invest result



s


Lorde-Today at 5:52 PM


OH, read the question wrong! In invest results, your safeclaim is normally included in an investigator's results, atleast in this game.


Quaking-Today at 5:52 PM


Like invest gets "real role, safe role, unrelated role"


Lorde-Today at 5:52 PM


yes


Quaking-Today at 5:52 PM


Awesome. Thanks.



Real role definitely is though, right?


Lorde-Today at 5:52 PM


included in those results? has to be


Quaking-Today at 5:57 PM


I have one last question for you. If you can answer it, great. If not, oh well. Is there a Necronomicon in this set-up?


Lorde-Today at 5:58 PM


I won't disclose information like that. For me to know, and you to find out.


NEW MESSAGES


Lorde-Today at 5:59 PM


Sorry.
An analysis would be nice, 'cause I'm not totally sure what you're going for with that. The whole mechanics-of-investigator thing is something most hosts would never reveal until the postgame, though, so I sorta doubt that that was actually discussed.
This certainly is something interesting.
No, we knew that already from the fact that mord and quaking independently claimed survivor.
Stopping guaranteed kills is almost surely gonna be the best option. If we hang the Poisoner, we need both Necro and Jugg to kill eachother to win. If we hang the Necro, all we need is the Jugg killing the Poisoner to win.
Are you saying that Jugg can be killed tonight? 'Cause if so that's awesome news, but it's a massive backpedal off what you said before.
Unfortunately, Mariano is almost surely confirmed town by basis of no kills and almost certainly being doc.
FMPOV, if you and quaking aren't both coven, then Mariano has to be as he's literally the only other option. Idk if it doesn't make much sense; it has to be true.
 
Are you saying that Jugg can be killed tonight? 'Cause if so that's awesome news, but it's a massive backpedal off what you said before.
For each kill in real ToS, Jugg unlocks something:
Kill 1 (Normally N2): Jugg can kill every night.
Kill 2 (Normally N3): Jugg gets basic defense.
Kill 3 (Normally N4): Jugg Rampages on kills.
Kill 4 (Normally N5): Jugg kills go through Doctor protection.

Since Jugg couldn't kill last night, the Jugg has no basic defense.
 
For each kill in real ToS, Jugg unlocks something:
Kill 1 (Normally N2): Jugg can kill every night.
Kill 2 (Normally N3): Jugg gets basic defense.
Kill 3 (Normally N4): Jugg Rampages on kills.
Kill 4 (Normally N5): Jugg kills go through Doctor protection.

Since Jugg couldn't kill last night, the Jugg has no basic defense.
Oh it's kill-based and not time-based? Can you prove that with a link to where it might say that on the wiki?
 
http://town-of-salem.wikia.com/wiki/Juggernaut

Important stuff here:
  • The Juggernaut starts off with a Powerful attack and defense level of None.
  • The Juggernaut can only kill on Full Moon nights to begin with. The Juggernaut gets 4 new abilities:
    • After the Juggernaut's first kill, they will receive a message saying: "You have gained a new ability! You may now attack every night." This enables the Juggernaut to attack on both Full Moon and non-Full Moon nights.
    • After the Juggernaut's second kill, they will receive a message saying: "You have gained a new ability! You have gained Basic defense." The Juggernaut now has Basic defense.
    • After the third kill, the message will say "You have gained a new ability! You now Rampage when you attack." When the Juggernaut attacks, anyone who visits the Juggernaut's target will also be dealt a Powerful attack (similar to the Werewolf and Pestilence). If the Juggernaut stays home, anyone who visits him will die.
    • After the fourth kill, the message will say, "You have gained a new ability! You ignore effects that would protect a player." This means that the Juggernaut gains Unstoppable attacks, which is similar to jester haunting, ignoring Powerful defense. Their attacks can bypass jailed townies' protection aswell as any kind of protection a Protective role can grant to their target (e.g. a protection from a Bodyguard, Crusader, Doctor, or Guardian Angel)
 
Okay I've got no reason to lynch Jugg over Coven then. ##UNVOTE ##VOTE: NINJAPENGUIN
 
Guys, I'm getting extremely confused. This game is getting me headaches.
I'm starting to think NinjaPenguin is Town too, but that makes Quaking a Coven. On the other hand, Quaking's defense of his Survivor role seems pretty solid, and that makes NinjaPenguin a Coven. ##UNVOTE until I can clear my mind in regards to this topic.
The only thing I am a little more convinced is Jabber being a Coven. I am unable to analyze if he is the Necromancer or the Poisoner and the consequences of lynching one or the other. We need to lynch a Coven, and he is the most coven-like (apologies of the term doesn't exist) of the 3 persons metioned in this post. ##VOTE: Jabberwock
 
I don't get why NP is trying so hard to lynch Quaking over Jabber, unless he is coven with a special interest to lynch Jugg? That actually makes sense to me, based on what was discussed so far. Town can't afford lynching Jugg over coven. Both Quaking and Morda claimed surv, meaning high chance of one of them not being coven (higher than anyone else because they have the chance to really be surv or jugg. So the safer option would be FHPOV to go for Jabber , but he prefers not to, because, and this is my guess, he is coven with Jabber, would not mind to bus him, but obviously prefers to get the jugg for a guaranteed win.

Who here thinks this makes sense? I am not fully invested in this game so I need some feedback before going with this theory and vote. I got a high VW today.
 
@quakingpunch73 What does that conversation tell us of any use? The three results in her version of Invest this game means she can always manipulate any results to be together if they were real. Or, to turn the argument on every other role, nobody would be Coven because nobody has claimed a role that aligns with either Necromancer or Poisoner.
The invest thing is based off of whatever Lorde chooses, so it is possible that one of these lines up with the scum roles, despite not doing so in the actual game.
An analysis would be nice, 'cause I'm not totally sure what you're going for with that. The whole mechanics-of-investigator thing is something most hosts would never reveal until the postgame, though, so I sorta doubt that that was actually discussed.
This reveals that Lorde wants to make her scum have as safe claims as they possibly can, which could mean anyone short of scattered is scum or jugg. Also, any results claimed by people are likely accurate, even if they are safe claims, due to Lorde not wanting to give her scum away.
I don't get why NP is trying so hard to lynch Quaking over Jabber
This is because Jabber is NP's Coven Buddy, like I've been affirming for a while. I do feel more confident about Jabber being Coven compared to NP right now, so ##Vote: Jabberwock
 
I don't get why NP is trying so hard to lynch Quaking over Jabber, unless he is coven with a special interest to lynch Jugg? That actually makes sense to me, based on what was discussed so far. Town can't afford lynching Jugg over coven. Both Quaking and Morda claimed surv, meaning high chance of one of them not being coven (higher than anyone else because they have the chance to really be surv or jugg. So the safer option would be FHPOV to go for Jabber , but he prefers not to, because, and this is my guess, he is coven with Jabber, would not mind to bus him, but obviously prefers to get the jugg for a guaranteed win.

Who here thinks this makes sense? I am not fully invested in this game so I need some feedback before going with this theory and vote. I got a high VW today.
FMPOV, Quaking is the safer lynch x3. I understand that he is not for you guys, but literally only from my point of view, where it only makes sense for Quaking-Necro Jabber-Poison Morda-Jugg to be legit, is taking the Coven kill variable out of the equation worth it. I'm fine lynching Jabber, but Quaking is a safer, less variable, option.
Only FMPOV because obviously you guys have reason to believe that surv claim may be legit and I understand that. It's just that FMPOV, it's not and can't be. I will settle for Jabber but I know it's best to get Quaking. And if we lose because Quaking doesn't correctly identify the Jugg and instead decides to kill me/Mariano, I'll say that I told you so.
The invest thing is based off of whatever Lorde chooses, so it is possible that one of these lines up with the scum roles, despite not doing so in the actual game.

This reveals that Lorde wants to make her scum have as safe claims as they possibly can, which could mean anyone short of scattered is scum or jugg. Also, any results claimed by people are likely accurate, even if they are safe claims, due to Lorde not wanting to give her scum away.

This is because Jabber is NP's Coven Buddy, like I've been affirming for a while. I do feel more confident about Jabber being Coven compared to NP right now, so ##Vote: Jabberwock
And now he tries, once again, to not allow Mariano to be cleared. Only people who are doing that are him and Jabber, and that's because they know that having too many cleared townies will doom them in the end.

I must then ask, oh Quaking, for you tell me this:
Lorde wants "to make her scum have as safe claims as they possibly can". How can my claim be safe for any potential Coven role, let alone Necromancer or Poisoner? Especially when I claim it D1, and have absolutely no way to guess who is scum.
 
And now he tries, once again, to not allow Mariano to be cleared. Only people who are doing that are him and Jabber, and that's because they know that having too many cleared townies will doom them in the end.
I'm sorry, but Mariano can't be 100% cleared, not unless Lorde confirms that he is Doctor. I've said it on page 19 that there's a 95% chance that he's town and I still stand by that claim, but he's still not 100% cleared and probably won't be. There's still a chance, however small, that he is Coven or Jugg, and not seeing that could screw over the town, like it did in Dazzling Star. Now stop twisting my words and look at the bigger picture.
Lorde wants "to make her scum have as safe claims as they possibly can". How can my claim be safe for any potential Coven role, let alone Necromancer or Poisoner? Especially when I claim it D1, and have absolutely no way to guess who is scum.
Your role is perfectly safe as a safeclaim. Of course, you took a gambit day 1 and guessed with a 20% chance of success which paid off, but your role as a safeclaim was designed to help you bus your scumbuddy in case you were in a pinch. If it was a safeclaim, then you knew who your buddy was, making it a perfectly safe claim, and one which can be easily passed off as a safe claim.
 
Your role is perfectly safe as a safeclaim. Of course, you took a gambit day 1 and guessed with a 20% chance of success which paid off, but your role as a safeclaim was designed to help you bus your scumbuddy in case you were in a pinch. If it was a safeclaim, then you knew who your buddy was, making it a perfectly safe claim, and one which can be easily passed off as a safe claim.
Who the heck designs a safeclaim with bussing in mind?
That may be safe for you, but the fact you'd have to claim something dooming your teammate isn't safe. Let alone the fact that everyone would ask "why didn't you claim this earlier?"
 
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