So, there are many different opinions on Greninja Break going into the next year. There is one side that says it is losing so much from rotation and burning shadows doesn't give it enough and because of that, it will not be nearly as relevant. There is another side that says it is going to be very strong even without dive ball and vs seeker. Its matchups against the stronger decks going into post rotation are very good. Meta gross is a near auto-win because of shadow stitching. Gardevoir is good for the same reason. Volcanion is very good because of weakness. What do you all think about post rotation greninja
Discussion Greninja Break: Going Away or Time to Shine
- Thread starter Pokemaster26
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I have yet to build a post rotation Greninja BREAK deck myself, but from the few pre-rotation decks I've faced off against, once they got to Frogadier in the active it was kind of all over for me (Alolan Ninetales GX)
That being said, the first idea that comes to mind is to put Evosoda in the deck replacing Dive Ball. If you Evosoda one Froakie up, then you all of a sudden have all of your available Frogadier on the bench. I'm honestly not sure if speed, consistency, or damage output are the main concerns for Greninja BREAK.
As far as much ups are concerned, I don't think Shadow Stitching is nearly as good against Gardevoir GX as it is against Metagross GX. Without Geotech, Metagross is looking at 3 manual attaches to even swing at all, and it has no way to OHKO Greninja BREAK without Kukui even at that. It also can't rely on retreat/max potion to discard 3, Geotech back on 3 to get back to back Giga Hammers. Once Gardevoir GX gets 4 or 5 energy, it can just keep swinging for OHKOs with no attack restriction on Greninja/BREAK every turn, assuming you have the 1 energy to shadow stitch, and if you don't then Gardevoir GX will just secret spring OHKO something every turn. The fact that Gardy GX can utilize DCE and Metagross GX can't is also something that works more in Gardy's favor.
Basically, unless Greninja BREAK can find a way to consistently take down Gardevoir GX, or at least go 50/50 with it, then I don't see it being one of the best decks of the meta. But I do consider it to be an advantageous match up against Metagross, Alolan Ninetales, and Volcanion.
I haven't researched the deck that much myself, so perhaps a more knowledgeable player can fill you in.
That being said, the first idea that comes to mind is to put Evosoda in the deck replacing Dive Ball. If you Evosoda one Froakie up, then you all of a sudden have all of your available Frogadier on the bench. I'm honestly not sure if speed, consistency, or damage output are the main concerns for Greninja BREAK.
As far as much ups are concerned, I don't think Shadow Stitching is nearly as good against Gardevoir GX as it is against Metagross GX. Without Geotech, Metagross is looking at 3 manual attaches to even swing at all, and it has no way to OHKO Greninja BREAK without Kukui even at that. It also can't rely on retreat/max potion to discard 3, Geotech back on 3 to get back to back Giga Hammers. Once Gardevoir GX gets 4 or 5 energy, it can just keep swinging for OHKOs with no attack restriction on Greninja/BREAK every turn, assuming you have the 1 energy to shadow stitch, and if you don't then Gardevoir GX will just secret spring OHKO something every turn. The fact that Gardy GX can utilize DCE and Metagross GX can't is also something that works more in Gardy's favor.
Basically, unless Greninja BREAK can find a way to consistently take down Gardevoir GX, or at least go 50/50 with it, then I don't see it being one of the best decks of the meta. But I do consider it to be an advantageous match up against Metagross, Alolan Ninetales, and Volcanion.
I haven't researched the deck that much myself, so perhaps a more knowledgeable player can fill you in.
I feel if you set up quick enough Gardevoir should be a favorably match up. Gardevior would need 5 energy to knockout a greninja break with one energy given your shadow stitching. I feel greninja will still be good, I play one lele in mine to search for wally and turn one into frogadier.
Talonflame Break can help a lot in my opinion. This format is really looking good for the talonflame version but idk about the starmie version
PMJ
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Talonflame BREAK isn't won't single-handedly win you the matchup against Grass. Decidueye OHKOs you. Lurantis OHKOs you (and messes with your math by healing). Golisopod OHKOs you (with Armor Press, allowing it to tank Greninja's weak hits even easier). Tapu Bulu OHKOs you, without a discard, and it isn't even weak to Fire (to say nothing of Tapu Wilderness GX, which is Greninja's worst nightmare)! With no VS Seeker in the format, recycling N becomes much harder, which in turn makes Aero Blitz a lot more appealing. The HP is amazing for what is essentially a stage 1, but you only get one use of it, and that's only if you start with Talonflame.
I also don't think Greninja's matchup with Gardevoir is as one-sided as it is against Metagross. It takes you 3-4 turns minimum to start attacking with Shadow Stitching if you go the traditional route, and if they get a Gardevoir up and running on turn two, you won't be able to keep up with them since they can OHKO your Pokemon from the very first attack. I think a Rare Candy or two might be smart here, as you need to lock their Abilities down ASAP. I don't have a lot of experience with this matchup, but I still feel like this is in Gardevoir's favor.
Starmie is incredible. Not only does it allow you infinite uses of GWS, but it also helps chuck dead cards from your hand (like other Talonflame, if you run it).
I also don't think Greninja's matchup with Gardevoir is as one-sided as it is against Metagross. It takes you 3-4 turns minimum to start attacking with Shadow Stitching if you go the traditional route, and if they get a Gardevoir up and running on turn two, you won't be able to keep up with them since they can OHKO your Pokemon from the very first attack. I think a Rare Candy or two might be smart here, as you need to lock their Abilities down ASAP. I don't have a lot of experience with this matchup, but I still feel like this is in Gardevoir's favor.
Starmie is incredible. Not only does it allow you infinite uses of GWS, but it also helps chuck dead cards from your hand (like other Talonflame, if you run it).
Unfortunately for Greninja, there is no good solution for grass decks next rotation. That being said, Forest of Giant Plants is being banned so Decidueye will see little to no play, and I think the same thing applies to Lurantis as there are better options for grass decks. Those better grass decks being Golisopod and Tapu Bulu, who Greninja will definitely lose to in an out of 3 match.
I have playtested a lot with a post-rotation Greninja deck, and I believe it is a tier 2 deck. It is a good deck, but will never be a great one due to a lack of consistency. A lot of people underestimate how much losing VS Seeker is going to hurt Greninja's consistency next rotation, even though other decks also suffer from it. VS Seeker not only helps by grabbing draw support when you need it, but also helps by grabbing the one-of supporters Greninja uses so often like Ace Trainer, Fisherman, and Teammates. The only other notable loss is Dive Ball, which will get a decent replacement in Evosoda.
I'm a little uncertain about how Starmie will do next rotation, but through testing I believe Talonflame will definitely be better. Personally, I think that having that search engine/wall in Talonflame will provide Greninja with the resources and time it needs to set up. Plus, people often overlook that extra 40 damage from Aero Blitz, but it can actually help get the OHKO Greninja often misses.
All in all, Greninja is a good deck because it is a versatile Pokémon with good matchups against a lot of top decks. But it lacks consistency, which will always prevent it from ever being a top tier deck. That being said, I love playing Greninja and find it a lot of fun even if it can get a little frustrating sometimes!
I have playtested a lot with a post-rotation Greninja deck, and I believe it is a tier 2 deck. It is a good deck, but will never be a great one due to a lack of consistency. A lot of people underestimate how much losing VS Seeker is going to hurt Greninja's consistency next rotation, even though other decks also suffer from it. VS Seeker not only helps by grabbing draw support when you need it, but also helps by grabbing the one-of supporters Greninja uses so often like Ace Trainer, Fisherman, and Teammates. The only other notable loss is Dive Ball, which will get a decent replacement in Evosoda.
I'm a little uncertain about how Starmie will do next rotation, but through testing I believe Talonflame will definitely be better. Personally, I think that having that search engine/wall in Talonflame will provide Greninja with the resources and time it needs to set up. Plus, people often overlook that extra 40 damage from Aero Blitz, but it can actually help get the OHKO Greninja often misses.
All in all, Greninja is a good deck because it is a versatile Pokémon with good matchups against a lot of top decks. But it lacks consistency, which will always prevent it from ever being a top tier deck. That being said, I love playing Greninja and find it a lot of fun even if it can get a little frustrating sometimes!
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I hope it goes away, but that's only because I don't like going up against it, haha. I think we'll still see it post-rotation just for the simple fact that it has the prize advantage in a GX heavy format, but like many others said on here, it loses a lot with VS Seeker.