Help Greninja BREAK 2017-2018 Rotation

Discussion in 'PTCG Competitive Play' started by Trainer Josh, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Trainer Josh Competitive TCG Player
    Trainer Josh

    Member

    I have been planning on building a Greninja BREAK deck for sometime, but wasn't quite sure how it would fare post roation. As of the 2016-2017 rotation all water decks used Dive Ball and Silent Lab as staples, but that goes out of format this rotation dealing a huge blow to Greninja decks. Most Greninja decks will also lose Ace Trainer, Level Ball, and VS Seeker in the new rotation. I'm fully aware other decks will suffer from the loss of these cards as well, but all 3 were used repeatedly in competive Greninja decks. Would appreciate any feedback on how well you think Greninja will do in competitive play. Also hoping to get a few questions answered in the process. Thanks!
    • Do any cards or Pokémon exist that have similar effects or abilities to that of Dive Ball?
    • What strong trainer cards exist that could help water type decks in the 2018 format?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017


  2. 21times Aspiring Trainer
    21times

    Member

    Rough Seas, Dive Balls, and Teammates are its major losses. Rough Seas can be replaced by Max Potion, but that drives up the item count. Dive balls will be replaced by Ultra Balls. Nothing can replace Teammates though. I don't see anything in Burning Shadows or Shining Legends outside of Guzma that will help Greninja.
     
  3. benjo74 Aspiring Trainer
    benjo74

    Member

    - Rough Seas has fallen off for a while because Silent Lab is good. But Silent Lab is rotating now too :( I don't know what a good stadium for Greninja will be anymore. The best will maybe be the new Mount Lanakila?
    - I feel Guzma is very helpful to Greninja. You can now retreat to use a shuriken a second time, then switch with Guzma and get a third shuriken. You also get to attack something off the bench.

    I really hope this deck stays good :)
     
  4. 21times Aspiring Trainer
    21times

    Member

    Wow yeah hadn't thought about that... the triple Shuriken is very possible with Guzma! I gotta go get a fourth Break!
     
  5. uncleyuri

    Member

    Even with those loses IMO Greninja is better than ever. Greninja now has field blower and choice band, both of which are huge additions for obvious reasons. Hex is lost in rotation, big win for Greninja. Lastly as someone mentioned above Guzma allows another switch for an absurd 3rd Giant Water Shuriken during your turn. That sequence won't exactly be easy to pull off as you'll need the 2 breaks out and 3 water energy in your hand, but still that's pretty much game over at that point if you can do it.
     
  6. 21times Aspiring Trainer
    21times

    Member

    I think the triple Shuriken will be easier to pull off than people think. There are plenty of times when you get the double Shuriken, the triple just means you have to have the third break and a Guzma in hand. I think people will start running four breaks instead of three. You won't be able to pull it off at will, but it will be something you can do probably once a game.

    But maybe I'm wrong - having VS seeker would definitely improve the chances of this.
     
  7. Calcab KILL THE GARBODORS
    Calcab

    Member

    To be honest both Rough Seas and Teammates are not that necessary (I don't run any of them on my deck).
    I think the biggest lost is Silent Lab, since we're not protected against Giratina promo anymore (and if Greninja gets really big, it'll certainly see play).
    As for replacements for Dive Balls, we still have Ultra Ball, Evosoda and Timer Ball
     
  8. Hiker Tony Aspiring Trainer
    Hiker Tony

    Member

    I think it would be best if we all agree to just stop playing greninja. I think it would be best for everyone, and by everyone I mean me, who has maybe never won against greninja. It's safe to say that too much is being lost in rotation that this deck is just generally a really really bad idea...;)
     
  9. 21times Aspiring Trainer
    21times

    Member

    If you have trouble against Greninja, you should just play more Grass decks... oh wait, with Forest rotating out, that leaves pretty much only Tapu Bulu GX and Golisopod GX as the only viable Grass Pokemon.... Triple Shurikens, no FOGP, Greninja is going to dominate in the early days post rotation.
     
  10. Hiker Tony Aspiring Trainer
    Hiker Tony

    Member

    exactly. which is why I believe that Pokebeachers should band together and stand against they tyranny!!
     
  11. Trainer Josh Competitive TCG Player
    Trainer Josh

    Member

    Thanks for all the feedback, really appreciate it! Had a couple more questions after reading through some comments and anazlying my deck.
    • Is Mount Lanakila from Burning Shadows a viable replacement for Silent Lab?
    • Is Aqua Patch from Guardians Rising a staple, or just something you have 1 or 2 of in your deck?
    • How many of you like to use Talonflame in your Greninja deck's for early game setup?
     
  12. Greninja is undoubtedly in a strong position after the rotation. Guzma potentially allows for up to three Giant Water Shuriken to be used each turn, leading to a whooping 180 damage anywhere on the field. This also makes the additional damage from Moonlight Slash less significant, opening up more opportunities to use Shadow Stitching while still doing extremely heavy damage. With three Giant Water Shurkien, plus Shadow Stitching with a Choice Band, you hit for 250 damage, enough to Knock Out anything, all while shutting off your opponent's Abilities.

    Another consideration for Greninja is Starmie EVO. Using Space Beacon over Fisherman will give you more opportunities to play Guzma - a card that will be run in droves post-rotation. With VS Seeker rotating, one-of Supporters will be far less reliable, and finding room for multiple copies of Fisherman will be a challenge. A 1-1 Starmie line is an easy inclusion, and once set up provides an endless source of Energy.

    As far as Stadiums go, Brooklet Hill seems like a great choice. I don't think Talonflame will be quite as necessary because the format is slowing down. Having your Froakie Knocked Out before you are able to evolve and use Water Duplicates is less likely to occur. You just don't need a 130 HP wall if most other decks are also taking their time to build up evolutions. Brooklet Hill lets you easily search for Froakie or Staryu without using an Ultra Ball.
     
    JDA and Cobrafilms like this.
  13. Cobrafilms Aspiring Trainer
    Cobrafilms

    Member

    1-of supporters are still viable with Tapu Lele. Most decks will be running 3.
     
  14. The trouble with Greninja is you typically don't want to run two-Prize Pokemon. One of the key aspects of Greninja's success is the sheet bulk of Greninja BREAK's 170 HP, making it extremely difficult to KO, and giving your opponent no other options because they need to take six prizes the hard way. Putting down a two-Prize Pokemon such as Tapu Lele, even lategame can jeopardize this situation and give the opponent another way out, unless you are searching for a Supporter that will end the game immediately. While that is great use of Tapu Lele-GX, you also run the risk of opening with it. Greninja is a deck that runs few Basic Pokemon, fewer than most other decks, so the odds of this are higher than normal. Regardless of whether you start with it or not, it becomes a liability on your Bench for the entire game.
     
  15. Trainer Josh Competitive TCG Player
    Trainer Josh

    Member

    I am a little reluctant on putting Tapu Lele GX into a Greninja deck as it stands for the following reasons.
    • One of the reason Greninja decks benefits so greatly from Choice Band, is because it doesn't use any GX or EX itself. That of course would change given you add one Tapu Lele, never mind three.
    • Secondly, many Greninja Decks typically lose prize cards fast in the early game because it takes time to set up Greninja, and Froakie's 60 health isn't doing you any favors. So having any pokemon that is worth 2 prizes can come back to haunt you later, even if it has 170 health.
    • Finally, another key component about Greninja decks for setup, is you require a lot of space on your bench. With the possibility of having Froakie's, Frogadier's and Greninja's down at any given time, losing spots to Tapu Lele will hurt. Especially for those who plan on potentially having a starmie line for energy acceleration from the discard pile.
     
  16. benjo74 Aspiring Trainer
    benjo74

    Member

    If I'm correct, you don't need a third Greninja BREAK on your bench as you can switch back into the first one? Going to the bench resets the ability
     
  17. 21times Aspiring Trainer
    21times

    Member

    Nope sorry going to the bench from the active clears effects, not abilities. But I'm pretty sure pulling off the trifecta won't be impossible. It's not going to happen every game, but it's not too improbable.
     
    Kellen likes this.
  18. Chalupacabra Aspiring Trainer
    Chalupacabra

    Member

    At first glance Lana and the new Ribombee's Honey Gather ability look good for this deck going forward (Cutiefly/Ribombee both have colorless costs), but are they traps?

    Even going the Starmie route, how mana Pokémon in this deck have energy attached in the late game for Lana to heal?

    Is even a 1-1 chain for Ribombee overly diluting the deck? It means another Basic you can start with that isn't Froakie.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  19. 21times Aspiring Trainer
    21times

    Member

    In my experience, the most success I have had with Greninja has been as a stand alone with Talonflame. I have tried Greninja with Starmie, Octillery, and even Lapras, and I just don't win as much as I do with TF alone. That might change post rotation, though, and certainly the value of Tapu Lele exponentially increases with the loss of VS Seeker. Greninja might need to run Lele - every deck might. And I hate single use Pokemon - I don't even own a Lele IRL OR on PTCGO. But even I have to admit that the loss of VS Seeker makes Lele incredibly vital to getting the supporter you need at the exact moment you need it. At least we're getting Acerola and Super Scoop Up to be able to get Lele off the bench though (and temptingly be able to use it again).

    But whether a Greninja box will actually work is something that we'll only discover through time and testing. We might even want to try Alolan Vulpix with it too.
     
  20. Auouch Aspiring Trainer
    Auouch

    Member

    Ok, so a newbie question: doesnt the text for grininja break’s shiruken state that you can only use it ONCE per turn (before you attack)? So then how would you be able to use it three times even WITH Guzma?
     

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