Discussion Could Octillery (BRT) Devalue Shaymin EX?

Master Golurk

Master Golurk

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I've noticed a lot of players opting to run the new Abyssal Hand Octillery in their deck builds over the wildly popular Shaymin EX and I was curious as to what the rest of the Pokebeach community though about this.
Is it just a flash in the pan or are we going to see a serious drop in Shaymin's value?
 
I think that Octillery is far better than Shaymin-EX. Shaymin gives up 2 prize cards and Octillery only gives up one. Octillery isn't affected from silent lab. Sure Octillery gets you one less card than Shaymin, but you can use Abyssal hand throughout the game.
 
Well right now shaymin experienced a price hike. So to answer your question no, but it could be used as a shaymin sub; but shaymin is better for these reasons. You draw 6 cards, you put it down and you forget about it, It's a basic, It's attack is semi good. Its attack is semi good because if you run into a deck that blehs you put a dce on and you two hit knock it out. Finally if you play shaymin and your opponent plays octillery you set up faster (pun intended) and win the game.
 
I reckon many people are using Octillery as a substitute due to how much cheaper it is. It's a bit like a budget Shaymin, and perhaps a clunkier version. Shaymin-EX still seems superior with its great recovery, ability and declunkiness, so I doubt it's price will drop.
 
I'm currently experimenting with Octillery in my Primal Kyogre deck in a 2-2 line. I generally don't like running EX-heavy decks so it's been a decent alternative to Shaymin. It's saved my life a few times by giving me two water energy I need for Kyogre's attack.

It sure does seem to get Lysandre'd up a lot though. :/
 
Honestly, it really won't devalue Shaymin at all. It's merely a cheap substitute for players who really don't want to shell out the $40+ for 1 copy of Shaymin. Shaymin has very conditional negatives of being in a deck such as being hit by an Electric-Type, or being the target for a type-specific special energy switch from the rarely played Curly Ribbon Sylveon. As mentioned- these are highly conditional and will not affect Shaymin's playability. Shaymin also has the ability to return to the hand, saving it from a potential disadvantage if it isn't knocked out the turn a counter to it is played. Octillery has the following disadvantages going for it:

  • It's a Stage 1.
  • It can potentially combo with Shaymin anyway.
  • Grass Weakness
  • Hex Maniac
  • Can be OHKO'd very quickly when Lysandre is used.
That's not to say it isn't a good card though. It has potential, but your deck would need to be very fast and focus on hand burning and set-up. Otherwise Octillery will just sit there and be targeted way too quickly without being capable to get any damage in. As a budget alternative in big basic decks, it's decent. But it can't benefit evolution decks at all because it takes up 2 Pokemon slots per Octillery.
 
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Unfortunately for octillery, he won't be a staple because playing a 2-2 takes four spaces into your deck...
I know, it will give consistency, but shaymin does better, even saving space in the deck list!
(i'm still hoping that a shaymin tin will come out)
 
I think both take different roles. Shaymin Ex is faster and takes up less deck slots. For this reason Shaymin is ideal in decks that need to set up fast and consistent. By contrast, Octillery is much more consistent once it is set up in decks that (can) burn their hands fast each turn. For this reason he should be a better option in control decks.
 
Like with any new set, I think the general Pokemon public is experimenting with new cards. I believe Octilery is being ran because trainers are looking for ways to receive consistency out of it. Shaymin, however, is a superior card because it's easy to use. Plus, AZ with Shaymin, makes the card in the running for one of the best cards in standard format. This type of ease of use is what made N such a great card.

One of the more better decks I've seen online, is one that runs Octillery with Silent lab. The combination throws a lot of kinks in decks that rely on draw support with basic Pokemon. But in the end, I think the general community will revert back to Shaymin because there is no fancy setup, plus there are to many ways to get Shaymin out.
 
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Maybe a little. What I like about Octillery is that it a) only gives up 1 prize and b) can be searched by level ball. I think this is a decent alternative in many decks, particularly Vespiquen and/or Night March variants. Shaymin will still be the prefered draw engine, but players that can't afford Shaymin can still have competitive decks.
 
I don't see how octillery is a cheap shaymin, it's not in theory and in play they are 2 completely different cards regardless of if they offer a "similar sort of effect". Granted it could be good of it's own ability uncomperable to anything else it's just a matter of developing a niche deck engine that works for it.

Sometimes I wonder if this is a competitive thread, to me being competitive is not asking if something could or can be better then the existing, it's what it offer's and what can be done to get it to that level, if it doesn't hit that level drop it and carry on.
 
Yo-yos said:
I don't see how octillery is a cheap shaymin, it's not in theory and in play they are 2 completely different cards regardless of if they offer a "similar sort of effect". Granted it could be good of it's own ability uncomperable to anything else it's just a matter of developing a niche deck engine that works for it.

Sometimes I wonder if this is a competitive thread, to me being competitive is not asking if something could or can be better then the existing, it's what it offer's and what can be done to get it to that level, if it doesn't hit that level drop it and carry on.
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I think you missed the point. Pokemon TCG is full of cards that have very similar effects but have a clause altered to make it slightly different in practice. Octillery and Shaymin are an example of this - one is a "When you play", while the other is a "Once during your turn". Despite the difference, both strive to add a particular something to a deck - draw power. Now, as we all know, Shaymin has been an extremely powerful card since its release... so what does this mean for Octillery of a similar effect?

Immediately a competitive player will analyse and evaluate Octillery, to determine if it could be used as a budget replacement or even a total replacement of Shaymin-EX in some situations. When you consider that Octillery could provide you a reliable stream of draw nearly par to Shaymin-EX every turn while avoiding popular Shaymin counters including Silent Lab, there is definitely potential use as a budget replacement card, especially for those people that cannot afford three Shaymin to stick in a deck. If I can achieve a similar draw to that if I used Shaymin, but for cheaper, than would that not be a "cheap Shaymin"?

Now, I'm not saying you can replace Shaymin-EX with Octillery and call it a day. Shaymin-EX has the primary niches of providing early-game draw, relief from a dead hand and potential to combo to obtain all the techs needed for a play. Replacing all Shaymin will mean you lose these niches that are highly advantageous in a competitive battle. However, I could replace two of my three Shaymin-EX with an Octillery line, and can use a single copy of Shaymin as backup. I will be able to fill multiple niches in this way at a much lower cost while keeping similar draw power. If I really am low on money, I could swap my last Shaymin-EX copy with a Jirachi-EX, which provides similar niches, especially when used in combination with Octillery.

In regards to the thread, keep in mind that the OP was asking for community opinions on the following topic: "Will the price of Shaymin-EX be affected by the release of Octillery Breakthrough?", which inevitably lead to the discussion of "Octillery or Shaymin-EX?". Also keep in mind that even the best of best will ask questions such as "Octillery or Shaymin-EX?", and discuss said questions with their peer group. This a healthy mindset to be in, as you can both sharpen your theorymon and discover new uses of even the most basic cards (see Hugh in Wailord-EX). A community of casual to competitive players have gathered in this thread to discuss the viability of Octillery, which is a great example of a competitive community working at its best. :)
 
I think it is already devaluing because i'm able to find a shaymin for about $32, but that could be for any reason:p
 
nope sorry sir, I am a competitive player I do not ever think any card can replace another if it's functionality is completely different from the next, all I think of is making a deck list that hit's the competitive level or exceeds that, that is all a competitive player is looking for when building a deck, if octillery cannot hit that level it cannot even begin to be called a "budget replacement" and is instead called by tier draw power. Even the best of the best, I saw that chit chat on virbank and it was for the most part a joke on octillery vs shaymin, i.e. offering something new to the mix, which it does both cards don't even offer the same function, octillery is more of a niche play while shaymin is pure utility (it got bad on there, the competitive market began destroying shaymin cards, I hate destroying money).

Once we get past the fact that these 2 cards are different and not the same we can begin to understand that they will not affect each other cards pricing which I thought spoke for itself.

Shaymin's devalue is coming from a market of people sick and tired of hearing people complain about it being to expensive (which it's not). shaymin drops to 30-25 or 35-40 then after states or cities when someone makes a successful octillery or whatever draw engine deck and people drop the hate on shaymin shaymin's price rises.
 
Well my bad, but at least people are making it easier to get shaymin rather than it being a $50 card
I mean come on it is easier to get than a secret rare vs seeker but thats only in the 20s but also goes in every deck like shaymin just a thought tho
 
I don't mean to be that person but I will, why does every card need to be cheap? Why does it matter how much a card cost's? It's up to the player base to find solutions then complain about one.

If shaymin is cheaper it just makes pokemon look like a cheap card game compared to other card games, think of it like this, pokemon has to compete with other card games on popularity and popularity is the pricing of valued cards in the meta, so the better the card the higher the value, so why should pokemon be seen as a low cost and lower the value of the card game because of the complaints of people not willing to find a solution towards playing the card game.

So yes I will be that person, why should we have to lower the value of pokemon because your not willing to trade or sell cards you don't need for shaymin?

Primal groudon, good deck, doesn't need shaymin. Or make some kind of strategy that makes playing shaymin hard, why is it so easy for the player base to find a problem, this is why we have a definitive amount of good players versus not so good players, and calling these players what they are shows the difference to splash some cold water on them or cold fusion level iq to realize this? Shaymin is a good card but there is many good cards.
 
I just wouldn't want anyone to feel like that 8 year old kid who doesnt want to give up $40 to get a card to get a bit more competitive but i do see your point that it does make pokemon feel more serious. recently i went to a pokemon tournament and the place was selling tcg cards and i saw the prices of those non-pokemon cards. it seems that every card is like $20! now shaymin doesn't seem so expensive.
 
Yo-yos said:
I don't mean to be that person but I will, why does every card need to be cheap? Why does it matter how much a card cost's? It's up to the player base to find solutions then complain about one.
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So it's affordable by the greater community? Seriously - the demographic are often students or casual workers, so they wouldn't have hundreds of dollars to spend on the game. A format that caters only for the rich is no fun for anyone. I actually hear people going on about the expensive staples of TCGs like Magic and how difficult it is to begin. Pokemon is unique in that way as it is much easier and more affordable to begin. For this reason is why this thread was made in the first place.

If shaymin is cheaper it just makes pokemon look like a cheap card game compared to other card games, think of it like this, pokemon has to compete with other card games on popularity and popularity is the pricing of valued cards in the meta, so the better the card the higher the value, so why should pokemon be seen as a low cost and lower the value of the card game because of the complaints of people not willing to find a solution towards playing the card game.
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I'm not sure about everyone else, but I know that I have never looked at a game and called serious/not serious due to how much a single card costs. Instead, I rely on the word of mouth to determine if a card game is serious. Basically, there may just be a reason why I keep hearing of this TCG - along with Pokemon, Magic and Yugioh are those that I hear thrown around a lot. Also may check an official/fan site to see if widespread tournaments are available, as a larger tournament program might just suggest a greater popularity.

So yes I will be that person, why should we have to lower the value of pokemon because your not willing to trade or sell cards you don't need for shaymin?
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You obviously have the money to do whatever you want, so good for you, but keep in mind that little of us earn an income spendable on hobbies.

Primal groudon, good deck, doesn't need shaymin. Or make some kind of strategy that makes playing shaymin hard, why is it so easy for the player base to find a problem, this is why we have a definitive amount of good players versus not so good players, and calling these players what they are shows the difference to splash some cold water on them or cold fusion level iq to realize this? Shaymin is a good card but there is many good cards.
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Unfortunately, Primal Groudon (nor Donphan) is not a very viable or competitive in the current format, meaning you probably won't be getting to the top tables in organised play any time soon. There also no viable strategy for making "playing Shaymin-EX hard". If there was a viable strategy, we would have seen it by now.

tl;dr The expense of Shaymin-EX is a very real problem, hence this thread in general, and calling a TCG "popular" should not be reflective of costs but instead word of mouth and tournament expansion. Shaymin-EX currently has such a high price as basically ALL top-table decks require multiple copies of it, and the Shaymin strategy does not have a reliable counter.
 
To make pokemon popular it should be cheap which it is until shaymin that everyone complains about .It seems like those things have even gotten lower pull rates :mad:. Anyway the point of this discussion is about octillery affecting shaymins price. I think it may change a little but not by $20 sadly:(. Probably about $5 at most.
 
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