Discussion Cards Rotating Out

So to keep the BREAK pokemon... they would have to make it Breakthrough and onwards? No other way right?

Otherwise, if they REALLy want to get rid of all the EX pokemon they go with Sun & Moon onwards.

Interesting. Honestly I cant decide which i like better.

I do love the BREAK pokemon, they look cool (Remind me of going super sayain) and they feel powerful when they work. Would hate to lose them.

On the other hand.

Getting rid of all EXs would be very interesting. No more OP attacks over and over again (Darkrai EX, Volcanion, Mewto & Mew EX) More stragety involved....

Tough...Honestly i cant tell which one i like better from a Gameplay stand point...
 
Please tell me what other major decks play HTL.
Most dark decks I know will run them, Genesect Virizion run it, sabeleye varients run it. These are just a few to name, its kinda like battle compressor, most decks run it but not a full set of 4 so it never really stands out
 
Most dark decks I know will run them, Genesect Virizion run it, sabeleye varients run it. These are just a few to name, its kinda like battle compressor, most decks run it but not a full set of 4 so it never really stands out
Dark hasn't for a year, VirGen never really has, and Sableye doesn't really exist anymore.
 
Please give me a list.

Here is a very recent article by one of the best in the world. See the Yveltal Laserbanks list he is working on. HTL is far from a Toad / insert flavor here card. I have seen it in everything under the sun. If I had to guess though, the most likely reason it isn't seen as much in recent expanded tournaments is the proliferation of item lock decks. But to say it doesn't get used in top decks is drastically understating its use.
 
Here is a very recent article by one of the best in the world. See the Yveltal Laserbanks list he is working on. HTL is far from a Toad / insert flavor here card. I have seen it in everything under the sun. If I had to guess though, the most likely reason it isn't seen as much in recent expanded tournaments is the proliferation of item lock decks. But to say it doesn't get used in top decks is drastically understating its use.
The Yveltal opinion is not popular. He is one of the only Yveltal lists with HTL. Toad/Decidueye can't fit HTL and has a stadium besides Virbank. The only other Toad variant that is played is Toad/Bats, the only deck to play HTL.
 
Of course it will sell. Children aren't relative to rotation because, like you have noted, children and competitive players are not the same market. Speaking specifically about how to make money from the competitive player base, the best move is to rotate to only in-print sets. Assuming the children's demand for Pokemon cards of any set remain the same, TPCi can still maximize profit by forcing competitive players to buy the new sets in order to rebuild their collection of playable cards. It's really just common sense with a sprinkling of Econ 101

The thing to understand is that from what we can tell, the majority of sales for the Pokémon TCG (ignoring the middlemen) go to people who neither collect nor play. Most are probably random little kids, getting a booster in place of a toy or other treat. Some may be nostalgic adults. Collectors may or may not be more than players. Serious players who buy multiple boxes of boosters as individuals spend a lot, but they are also outnumbered badly by the other groups.

So unfortunately, while I agree the player base (I'll even through in the less competitive bits of it) are important for full market penetration, that doesn't always lead to maximum profits. You know the saying "The customer is always right?" I kid you not, I think it was my Econ 102 class that warned us that bad customers are a real thing. It varies, but you have to figure out how to approximate the cost of bad word-of-mouth, excessive demands (such as for free product or additional services), etc. you can take before the customer becomes a profit loser.

Given the cost of organized play, I suspect it is a combination of the prestige (including free publicity) from having stuff like the World Championships, and possibly creating a more stable product in the long run, that makes the competitive player base worth the hassle. After all, Pokémon could just go the route of all those forgettable TCGs... that dump a product onto the market with minimal support, and after it dies, waits a bit, gets a new cartoon or the like, and does it again.

Why? Besides Colress, Ghetsis, and Archeops what other BW cards are even really relevant in the current expanded format?

Toxic card interactions tend to happen not only due to card quality, but card quantity. Shiftry (NXD) was garbage until Forest of Giant Plants.
 
The Yveltal opinion is not popular. He is one of the only Yveltal lists with HTL. Toad/Decidueye can't fit HTL and has a stadium besides Virbank. The only other Toad variant that is played is Toad/Bats, the only deck to play HTL.
The point wasn't whether it is popular. The point is that a major player is looking at playing it. One top finish is all it takes for a deck to become wildly popular. If you go out of regional tournaments, you also see the card with increased frequency. Also, you never know what will bring cards back based on a new set. Long story short, it takes very little to bring back a card as powerful as htl.
 
The point wasn't whether it is popular. The point is that a major player is looking at playing it. One top finish is all it takes for a deck to become wildly popular. If you go out of regional tournaments, you also see the card with increased frequency. Also, you never know what will bring cards back based on a new set. Long story short, it takes very little to bring back a card as powerful as htl.
See thats the thing, it doesnt matter how much its used right now, the point was that HTL was a cancer card for quite a long time, and as long as its in the expanded format there will be cards that interact well with it and start the whole cycle again.
 
The thing to understand is that from what we can tell, the majority of sales for the Pokémon TCG (ignoring the middlemen) go to people who neither collect nor play. Most are probably random little kids, getting a booster in place of a toy or other treat. Some may be nostalgic adults. Collectors may or may not be more than players. Serious players who buy multiple boxes of boosters as individuals spend a lot, but they are also outnumbered badly by the other groups

Agreed. I think everyone in this discussion is aware of that.

So unfortunately, while I agree the player base (I'll even through in the less competitive bits of it) are important for full market penetration, that doesn't always lead to maximum profits. You know the saying "The customer is always right?" I kid you not, I think it was my Econ 102 class that warned us that bad customers are a real thing. It varies, but you have to figure out how to approximate the cost of bad word-of-mouth, excessive demands (such as for free product or additional services), etc. you can take before the customer becomes a profit loser.

Ok I'm definitely missing a step of your thought process here. Why would making more money off of competitive players while making the usual amount of money off of children not maximize profits? I'm also unsure of when bad word of mouth became relevant to the discussion. What would generate this bad word of mouth? What does it have to do with rotating more sets than usual to increase sales of in-print sets? Do you mean that rotating too many sets will piss people off and make them quit? I'm unclear on your stance here so forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm just taking shots in the dark here.

Given the cost of organized play, I suspect it is a combination of the prestige (including free publicity) from having stuff like the World Championships, and possibly creating a more stable product in the long run, that makes the competitive player base worth the hassle. After all, Pokémon could just go the route of all those forgettable TCGs... that dump a product onto the market with minimal support, and after it dies, waits a bit, gets a new cartoon or the like, and does it again.

The player base is worth hassle? What hassle? How did we even get here? I think I've been brought along for a ride that I was very unprepared for. I just wanted to talk about why it would make Pokemon more money to rotate to Evo-onward but now we're talking about prestige and forgettable TCGs. What is going on?
 
Toxic card interactions tend to happen not only due to card quality, but card quantity. Shiftry (NXD) was garbage until Forest of Giant Plants.
Ok, and then (if the TCG is smart) the toxic cards get banned. Every other card game has a banned list. I'm not sure why this one is so reluctant to use theirs.

See thats the thing, it doesnt matter how much its used right now, the point was that HTL was a cancer card for quite a long time, and as long as its in the expanded format there will be cards that interact well with it and start the whole cycle again.
But it does matter whether it's used now because that's what we're talking about; current expanded. Latte and I propose that HTL is not used that much in the current expanded. Not whether it could be used or whether people are looking to use it. Does it see widespread play and is it putting up real tournament results? I'm not CURRENTLY seeing that.
 
Sergiohmygod, I notice you broke down my post into a couple of pieces. That can be a great way to understand something better, but probably not this time, because you ended up separating cause and effect, then asking for the cause of both. I mean, I should explain the cause of the cause, since it wasn't self-evident like I thought. So I'm going to try again. I've actually got to break it down further, as some of what is clumped together is no more closely related than that which was separated out... so I'm thinking I ought to make it all bite size. Thanks for your patience.

How did we even get here? I think I've been brought along for a ride that I was very unprepared for. I just wanted to talk about why it would make Pokemon more money to rotate to Evo-onward but now we're talking about prestige and forgettable TCGs. What is going on?

Yes, your last few sentences are the first thing I'll be responding to. I don't think Evolutions-On is a serious rotation option. Here is a link to a spreadsheet where I've got the stats for all previous Standard (or Modified) Format set rotations. If you weren't being serious about it, just an "I wish" kind of thing... okay, didn't know that was the current topic.

If you are serious, this is part of why @crystal_pidgeot has yet to convince me of it. Unless you consider Base Set through Team Rocket to be the original set block (it is debated), there has never been a set rotation that used the final expansion of an era as the starting set for a format, and if we do count it, then it has been only one out of 16 times. If you were talking about Evolutions-On for 2017, it would mean cutting eight full sets: XY: Primal Clash, XY: Roaring Skies, XY: Ancient Origins, XY: BREAKthrough, XY: BREApoint, Generations, XY: Fates Collide and XY: Steam Siege. If Generations doesn't really count (reprint set for the game's 20th annivesary, not part of the usual release cycle), we still tie the infamous "emergency" rotation that occurred in 2011, the current record-holder for cuts.

I also just think most of the issues with game pacing and balance aren't actually solved by such a deep cut, only masked, but I'll save that discussion for another time. As for the rest, I'm sticking it behind a spoiler tag. If I interrupted a fun "what if" discussion because I mistook it for a serious attempt at predicting what will be, that's my bad and you can probably just skip the rest.

Agreed. I think everyone in this discussion is aware of that.

Maybe everyone currently active in this discussion is aware of this, but my long term internet history (let alone just Pokémon), is to make sure such things are firmly established, because most people (too often myself included), don't stop to think about such things otherwise. ;)

Ok I'm definitely missing a step of your thought process here. Why would making more money off of competitive players while making the usual amount of money off of children not maximize profits?

Even if we assume that TPC can make as much off of Pokémon from non-player/non-collector customers and collectors as they currently do while catering to competitive players to improve sales there, you must remember gross versus net. All the Organized Play provided by TPCi costs money. Better R&D before cards release (definitely something needed to improve game balance) are also going to cost time and money. Given that not all competitive players want the game to change from its current form, there is a real question over whether or not making all the changes you (or for that matter, I myself) want would result in a net gain. There may also be a risk factor we are underestimating; the-powers-that-be may be worried that any change will ruin the currently profitable model. Many businesses in recent years have (again?) become focused on risk avoidance over long term profitability.

I'm also unsure of when bad word of mouth became relevant to the discussion. What would generate this bad word of mouth? What does it have to do with rotating more sets than usual to increase sales of in-print sets? Do you mean that rotating too many sets will piss people off and make them quit? I'm unclear on your stance here so forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm just taking shots in the dark here.

When I brought up what I learned about bad customers, I shifted to a general business topic. My college courses didn't focus on the TCG industry nor have I ever worked for The Pokémon Company. I don't know of its relevance specifically to the TCG industry, but I do know that it matters. Taking shots in the dark can be risky, because I almost thought they were something else, and went about debating them, which could get quite lenghty. Usually, if you aren't sure, it is better just to ask. :) Yes, I need to take my own advice more often. ^^'

The player base is worth hassle? What hassle?

Organized play isn't free. It cost TPCi money to run and advertise the various tournament series and even Pokémon League. There are some fees for these things, but they don't cover everything, and even if it did, there would be a question of whether it was the best use of those resources, as there may be larger or easier (more reliable) profits to be had. Just providing rulings for cards, as well as having R&D test everything before committing to it, is all part of the "hassle" of maintaining the competitive player base. If you don't like the word "hassle", substitute "work", or better still "work that may not actually lead to a worthwhile profit."

Even after distinguishing gross from net there is more to understanding profits. Opportunity cost refers to what you could have done with investment funds instead of what you actually choose to do. If it were to cost a lot more to maintain what we have than what the-powers-that-be thought it was worth, they might rather invest the money elsewhere even if it was still technically generating a profit, for something that generated
  • A larger profit
  • A more reliable profit
  • A less stressful profit
  • Some combination of the above
 
Ok, and then (if the TCG is smart) the toxic cards get banned. Every other card game has a banned list. I'm not sure why this one is so reluctant to use theirs.

The last time this happened, the toxic card was clearly Forest of Giant Plants, but instead, they focused only on the most egregiously affected card (Shiftry).

Even if we say that is okay, this process means eventually you have a preposterously long ban list, and all the cards you've avoided rotating out are probably meaningless filler (even if they were once competitive). Worse yet, said filler can help hide other toxic cards; even just glancing for problem cards, there is a difference between working with 500 cards, 1000 cards, and 5000 cards.
 
The last time this happened, the toxic card was clearly Forest of Giant Plants, but instead, they focused only on the most egregiously affected card (Shiftry).

Even if we say that is okay, this process means eventually you have a preposterously long ban list, and all the cards you've avoided rotating out are probably meaningless filler (even if they were once competitive). Worse yet, said filler can help hide other toxic cards; even just glancing for problem cards, there is a difference between working with 500 cards, 1000 cards, and 5000 cards.

The problem there was Shiftry was a older card and FoGP was new and in the interest of the new set, they banned the older card to not ruin sales of the new set. Other card games would have banned anything like FoGP because of how it affects the game in the long run and it that card alone (if used by competent card designers) would have made the whole grass type bad because they couldn't make interesting cards with it in format, yet they continue to make grass types that don't interact well with a card that is now 2 years old. This would be unheard of in any other card game and would have been banned before any interaction with Sun and Moon.
 
The problem there was Shiftry was a older card and FoGP was new and in the interest of the new set, they banned the older card to not ruin sales of the new set. Other card games would have banned anything like FoGP because of how it affects the game in the long run and it that card alone (if used by competent card designers) would have made the whole grass type bad because they couldn't make interesting cards with it in format, yet they continue to make grass types that don't interact well with a card that is now 2 years old. This would be unheard of in any other card game and would have been banned before any interaction with Sun and Moon.
Yeah I dont see why they dont ban cards that are toxic for the format and then unban them when theyre no longer in an unhealthy state. Look at the new sableye, its gonna be so broken with Deciplume and what fun is there to playing against that deck, you get locked out of using everything but energy and stadiums. FoGP is the root cause of these issues. It creates an unhealthy playing environment that is unfun for people playing and basically offputs people from wanting to play when decks that can lock you out of doing anything exist.
 
Yeah I dont see why they dont ban cards that are toxic for the format and then unban them when theyre no longer in an unhealthy state. Look at the new sableye, its gonna be so broken with Deciplume and what fun is there to playing against that deck, you get locked out of using everything but energy and stadiums. FoGP is the root cause of these issues. It creates an unhealthy playing environment that is unfun for people playing and basically offputs people from wanting to play when decks that can lock you out of doing anything exist.

I agree but this is why I feel Evolutions-On has to be a thing because it removes a lot of toxic cards from Sun and Moon though this could also be solved by making a very hefty ban list. I'm in favor of having more expanded tournaments for a few months and letting standard be 4 or so sets. Its hard to say but they would need to ban a lot of cards, which I also feel isn't healthy for the game.
 
I agree but this is why I feel Evolutions-On has to be a thing because it removes a lot of toxic cards from Sun and Moon though this could also be solved by making a very hefty ban list. I'm in favor of having more expanded tournaments for a few months and letting standard be 4 or so sets. Its hard to say but they would need to ban a lot of cards, which I also feel isn't healthy for the game.
4 sets for standard would be great, Mega Blastoise might actually see play, and waterbox will basically be gone. Also Volcanion would be gone, so decks like incineroar that will finally not be sped through against dark decks and waterbox would actually have the time to set up and mess some people up. I think that Evolutions On would be their best decision for a healthy competitive scene. If we stick to a normal 3-5 Sets roation the only decks we'll be seeing is Goliosped and Waterbox that have the acceleration and damage output thats fast enough to keep up, oh and also Volcanion. With Aqua Patch in the format no stage two decks will have the speed to keep up

If things like aqua patch are in the game they need to either ban them, or introduce a way to accelerate energy on Stage 1 and Stage 2 GX's (Mega Turbo esque). They would also have to reintroduce Broken Time Space. Thats the only thing that would make Stage 2 GXs ever relevant in a format with Max Elixir and Aqua Patch
 
Back
Top