Discussion Are We Moving into a More Basic Heavy Format?

Discussion in 'PTCG Competitive Play' started by joffreyspikes, Oct 29, 2017.

  1. joffreyspikes #Drampazizzle
    joffreyspikes

    Member

    I think that with the release of Crimson Invasion, many decks will start to become more Basic Pokémon oriented. It may also give an opportunity for other big Basics to shine. Here are some examples:

    - Buzzwole-GX
    - Xurkitree-GX
    - Kartana-GX
    - Nihilego-GX
    - Turtonator-GX
    - Volcanion-EX
    - Ho-Oh-GX
    - Drampa-GX
    - Necrozma-GX
    - Tapu Fini-GX
    - Tapu Bulu-GX
    - Zygarde-EX
    - Espeon-EX
    - Lapras-GX

    All of these Pokémon are very playable, and there are more of these good big Basics than there are Stage 1s and 2s right now probably:

    - Gardevoir-GX
    - Golisopod-GX
    - Metagross-GX
    - Garbodor
    - Zoroark-GX
    - Espeon-GX
    - Ninetales-GX
    - Greninja
    - Decidueye-GX

    So this begs the question, will the format actually speed up instead of slow down as predicted after the rotation with the rise of these tanky Basic Pokémon?
     


  2. JGB146 Aspiring Trainer
    JGB146

    Advanced Member Member

    You're including almost every basic that could possible see play even though many aren't playable by themselves, and instead require a partner that is a stage 1 or 2. I think that's a bit of a misleading comparison.

    That said, you also left out Darkrai, which becomes more playable with Zoroark-GX.

    Anyway, evolutions you left off that deserve inclusion:
    Umbreon-GX
    Sylveon-GX
    Salazzle-GX
    Vikavolt
    Solgaleo-GX
    Zoroark BREAK
    Raichu-GX

    I think it will, at best, be a split. But I also think most of the basics on your list are outclassed by more evolution-centric decks.
     
  3. Duo Dreaming of a Milotic GX
    Duo

    Member

    I don't think so.

    The caveat with Basic GX's is that most of them have very high energy requirements for their big attacks.

    Ho-Oh GX requires 4, Turtonator requires 3 and discards 2 every attack, Necrozma GX requires 3 energy to do anything and has to discard if you want Prismatic to do any damage, Bulu requires a Stage 2 Pokemon in order to accelerate energy rapid enough for it to be useable. I could go on, but I think you get my point.

    While it's true that things like Kiawe exist for fire and Max Elixir exists for every basic deck, you have a maximum of 4 Max Elixir in any basic deck, and even then Max Elixir is not universally good, especially in Basic GX decks that utilize DCE and Rainbow.

    IMO, Pokemon has done a pretty decent job balancing basics, stage 1s, and stage 2s, and it's simply a matter of bottlenecks. Stage 2 decks have a bottleneck in even getting their GXs out in play, but once they are out in play they have much more lastability than a basic GX. Gardevoir GX has secret spring to accelerate energy massively to make up for any droughts in energy, not to mention Magical Ribbon on Sylveon. Metagross GX has Geotech System for self-sustained energy. The upcoming Solgaleo with Turbo Drive can fuel energy very rapidly as well and is stupidly tanky with its ability.

    The bottleneck for Basic GXs is energy. You can drop them down on the field, but they are unable to swing for big damage for 2 to 3 turns as well due to their energy bottleneck.

    This is just my personal opinion, but I think Stage 1 decks have the "best bottleneck." Stage 1 decks generally evolve up and have the energy they need together on the same turn as opposed to waiting for their Pokemon set up to catch up or waiting for their energy to catch up. Stage 1s are the most consistent, which is also why I think you see most Stage 1s focus on the 2 hit KO game as opposed to the OHKO game like Stage 2s, Fire, or Bulu.

    All of the best decks in the game right now either have the best methods to surpass their bottlenecks or introduce interuption to force your opponent to have bottlenecks they otherwise would not while committing enough damage to get the job done. The game is more complex than just this, but I'd say this is the main factor that's keeping the game in check and why cards like Forest of Giant Plants was banned.

    Don't get me wrong. I think a lot of the new Basic GXs that are coming out are great, but I don't think they are going to speed up the format at all. They'll add more variety but not more speed.
     
  4. Rodzillaj3 Aspiring Trainer
    Rodzillaj3

    Member

    Duo, I gotta agree with ya. I was thinking about this a day or two ago as well. One thing that stands out to me is Po Town. We have really good basics that can hit 180 to 190 and when a full stage 2 line evolves with Po Town in play, it takes that 230-250 health down to 170-190. While basics are taking less time to setup, I do think we may start swinging back to basics. I was thinking Lapras in particular just because with a choice band you can hit an easy 190 and it's not hard to have one ready to go on turn two.
     
  5. JGB146 Aspiring Trainer
    JGB146

    Advanced Member Member

    That's kind of apples and oranges though. Most of the decks playing Po Town also have answers for basics (e.g. some combo of spread + damage move, Necrozma, Trashalanche, Garbotoxin, and big attackers of their own).

    Hitting 190 turn two isn't as impressive as it sounds if you're hitting a 60hp basic and taking a single prize. Nor if you're hitting something with 200+ HP and taking a 2hko when they'll be able to OHKO you repeatedly there after.
     
  6. pikachuuuu101 #HeyNick
    pikachuuuu101

    Member

    Short answer, no
    slightly longer answer, no because the stage 2s easily wreck the basics, though the stage 1s beat the stage 2s, which in turn are beat by the basics. basically its rock-paper-scissors
     
    Kellen likes this.
  7. DragonFang101 Dragon-type Gym Leader
    DragonFang101

    Member

    I really think not. In fact, we're seeing more evolution decks than is considered normal.
     
  8. Otaku The wise fool?
    Otaku

    Member

    The Pokémon TCG tends to be about pacing. Right now, the game is about as fast as it has ever been... once you adjust for different rules and cardpools. Yes, things were faster in early days of the game, but the player going first could attack on his or her first turn and you had the specifics of the card pool. Take those original first turn rules, make all our current Trainers function as "Item cards", etc. HP scores are higher now but seems like we can either do more damage for less Energy, can accelerate Energy more effectively in a wider variety of decks, or both. @[email protected] This pacing makes it very hard on Evolutions, that naturally need more time to set up their fields.

    Even in Basic dominated formats, that doesn't mean they are mono-Basic; it includes formats where only the most insane of Evolutions can compete with the "average" competitive Basic focused deck, and a deck that uses a Stage 2 to back up a bunch of different Basics is still pretty Basic focused. We are only really starting to get a taste of the days when Stage 2 attackers were the norm. Not saying I want to go back to that; I prefer players having a choice between Basic, Stage 1, and Stage 2 Pokémon for their deck's main attacker. Don't like it when Evolutions are lucky to have supporting roles, don't like it when Basics are in the same boat.

    Blah, blah sorry it took so long to get to the main point. Put it all together, and we're actually on pretty shaky ground. We get the disruption (or acceleration) that Basics need, and only the Evolutions that are the most crazy-powerful will still see play. On the other hand, if the powers-that-be keep trying to "fix" Evolutions by just making them faster or stronger... if they try to compensate not by improving the Evolving Basics and Stage 1 Pokémon but by just making Evolutions more and more crazy powerful, we'll trade an format of the top cards of every Stage for the top Evolutions, and Basics will have one of their rare "down" periods.
     
  9. optimal_max Aspiring Trainer
    optimal_max

    Member

    I think right now (in standard play) is as good a balance as there has ever been between powerful basics and even more powerful evolutions. Neither one is really more successful than the other.
     
  10. TheCraftyScot Aspiring Trainer
    TheCraftyScot

    Advanced Member Member

    I think there's alot of hype for cards like buzzwole and xurcutree, however, they haven't been properly tested in a major tournament, keep an eye on London's international event, and see how the top 32 shape up, that will give a good indication as to where the format is heading
     
  11. triplemo Aspiring Trainer
    triplemo

    Member

    The majority of the pokemon you listed above, are either tech pokemon in decks a one of's exclusively, or their attacks require to high of an energy cost causing them to be unplayable. The three fire pokemon- ho-oh, salazzle, and turt, are all playable and are really the only ones that are a competitive deck, besides dramp/garb or buzzwole garb. Another notable example, Tabu Bulu, is good, but requires the support of a stage 2, vikavolt, thus not making it a "Big Basic". To be a "big basic", typically, a pokemon must be able to:
    • Have advantageous use of special energy or other in game mechanic, like a trainer card such as dark claw, from expanded
    • Be able to attack quickly, and cost effectively, EG; Yveltal-EX, and Drampa-GX, can both use a basic energy and a DCE, Whereas Nilhego_GX needs three psychic energy
    • Be a basic pokemon
    • And lastly, have 170+ HP
    I believe that the only "Big Basic's" on your list are :
    • Buzzwole
    • Turtonator
    • Volcanion
    • Ho-Oh
    • Drampa
    I would have included Tapu Bulu-GX except, it needs the support of vikavolt to function.

    Examples Of Non Big Basics
    Espeon-EX - This is not a deck in itself. At most it is a one of tech pokemon in spread decks
    Nilhego-GX - Again, not in a deck by itself, merely a tech.
     

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